RE: Alpine A110 - Geneva 2017
Discussion
dunnoreally said:
we have hear a sports car boasting about its lightness which isn't available in manual
If you think about it, a DCT was more or less inevitable, given the parent company!HINT: it's really, really, REALLY, hard to make a nice shifting transverse rear mid gearbox from a fwd one. (This is because all the levers come out the wrong side of the box. So, you either have a VERY expensive job to recast transmission casings and redesign the shift rods etc (which will be a Tier 1 validated part) or you end up with a snake put full of rods, cable, bell cranks and god knows what else to try to connect up to the original linkages. Compare that to the almost zero cost task of just making a couple of wires about 3 foot longer.........)
7 speeds is a lot. Does anyone really want 7 or more gears in a manual box? I think as the world moves towards very high numbers of gears some form of automated or semi-automated shifting system becomes inevitable. Personally I felt that 6 close ratios was perfect but 6 speed manual boxes are getting seriously old hat these days. Seamless paddle shifting systems also make a lot of sense on cars that can take a fair bit of trail braking into corners.
Having said all that and as much as I love the idea of a new Alpine I fear this will go the same way as previous Alpines i.e. next to zero UK sales as why would anyone want to spend so much on a car that is a bit of an unknown but costs as much as the Porsche competition (which can be bought with said manual gearbox).
Having said all that and as much as I love the idea of a new Alpine I fear this will go the same way as previous Alpines i.e. next to zero UK sales as why would anyone want to spend so much on a car that is a bit of an unknown but costs as much as the Porsche competition (which can be bought with said manual gearbox).
The article compares this with the Elise 220 but that's a £15k cheaper car (that's also quicker, at least to 60, and very likely around a track). I don't really think they're remotely the same market - this looks more like a play at the Cayman market, as the article seems to suggest.
Despite the seeming emphasis on light weight, 1100kg isn't really *that* light for a two seater with a 1.8 four pot, is it? A Mountune Fiesta is pretty similar (and yes, I know they're very different things, but still). That's Exige V6 weight, and moderately close in price, too. I'd find it hard to walk past a manual V6 and pick this instead, unless it really is beautifully finished. But different strokes, and all that. I wish them luck, mind.
Despite the seeming emphasis on light weight, 1100kg isn't really *that* light for a two seater with a 1.8 four pot, is it? A Mountune Fiesta is pretty similar (and yes, I know they're very different things, but still). That's Exige V6 weight, and moderately close in price, too. I'd find it hard to walk past a manual V6 and pick this instead, unless it really is beautifully finished. But different strokes, and all that. I wish them luck, mind.
I see this in almost exactly the same way I see the 4C (carbon tub aside)
A brand broadly looked down upon by those that don't know (Alfa rust and breakdown a lot dontcha know)
Then pops up with a shocking small number little rocket.
Both are (to me) gorgeous
Both have 1.8(ok 1.75 and 1.8) 4 pot turbo'd mid mounted engines
Both focus very heavily on size and weight
Both have DSG gearboxes
Both will be rare.
Both are or at least should be (imo) coveted by enthusiasts.
Now whilst a heavily developed car of this kind should be great out of the box, I don't get the continual digs at the Alfa...simple geo changes correct any camber sensitivity and transforms the thing.
I personally am sad at the rise and rise of the 4cyl turbo route...as much as I'm sad that the DSG dominates road biased performace tools like these.
I'm also a Porsche fanboy....
But honestly, given £50k spend the Cayman would be the last on the list, down to it's looks and ubiquity.
Yes I think it will be hard sell for Alpine, but I also think there are enough car people and non car people who will fall simply for the rarity and a care that looks quite disimilar to anything else.
Hope so anyway...as I would like one...or a 4c as my next car..(failing that a proper 981 generation Porsche).
The Alpine is my reveal of the show.
Geneva this year has been huge for big reveals, hard to keep up....and I think I'm colour carbon, ring time, active aero'd, premium materials, tenth of second quicker nect level carftmanship'd out....and seeing as I'm not a millionaire or have a disturbingly close relationship with any major brand dealer salesman, I'm over the moon something a smidge more realistic yet just as focused is put out there.
A brand broadly looked down upon by those that don't know (Alfa rust and breakdown a lot dontcha know)
Then pops up with a shocking small number little rocket.
Both are (to me) gorgeous
Both have 1.8(ok 1.75 and 1.8) 4 pot turbo'd mid mounted engines
Both focus very heavily on size and weight
Both have DSG gearboxes
Both will be rare.
Both are or at least should be (imo) coveted by enthusiasts.
Now whilst a heavily developed car of this kind should be great out of the box, I don't get the continual digs at the Alfa...simple geo changes correct any camber sensitivity and transforms the thing.
I personally am sad at the rise and rise of the 4cyl turbo route...as much as I'm sad that the DSG dominates road biased performace tools like these.
I'm also a Porsche fanboy....
But honestly, given £50k spend the Cayman would be the last on the list, down to it's looks and ubiquity.
Yes I think it will be hard sell for Alpine, but I also think there are enough car people and non car people who will fall simply for the rarity and a care that looks quite disimilar to anything else.
Hope so anyway...as I would like one...or a 4c as my next car..(failing that a proper 981 generation Porsche).
The Alpine is my reveal of the show.
Geneva this year has been huge for big reveals, hard to keep up....and I think I'm colour carbon, ring time, active aero'd, premium materials, tenth of second quicker nect level carftmanship'd out....and seeing as I'm not a millionaire or have a disturbingly close relationship with any major brand dealer salesman, I'm over the moon something a smidge more realistic yet just as focused is put out there.
herebebeasties said:
The article compares this with the Elise 220 but that's a £15k cheaper car (that's also quicker, at least to 60, and very likely around a track). I don't really think they're remotely the same market - this looks more like a play at the Cayman market, as the article seems to suggest.
Think they'll want to have this sitting somewhere between the Lotus and the Porsche. More civil NVH than the Elise, more rawness and playfulness compared to the 718? DKG as only transmission is a bit unfortunate perhaps. But as pointed out earlier on the thread probably the only way to make this economically viable and not have a rubbish MT. Assume the budget they had for the A110 wasn't unlimited either...Time will tell what they will charge in the UK and how much the standard cars are going to be. In Euroland meanwhile, the Elise 220 is unfortunately a €50k car, PDK 718 starts around €55k, 4C at €63.5k. Launch edition prices for the A110 look OK to me in that company (even if it is more than I can spend at the moment).
Quite like the looks and the specs of this Alpine. Pretty light so power/weight is good without crazy HP. Weight distribution sounds fun, same for sensible wheelsizes and amount of rubber. Exactly 30mm less front and rear compared to the 718. To quote the article "We didn't want loads of mechanical grip, we wanted a car that is mobile and which slides relatively easily under the right circumstances."
I think all of this sounds rather promising really.
Edit: new official video snippet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnEUP8Kklk4 & brochure of the launch ed https://alpinecars.com/alp-content/uploads/2017/02...
Edited by Kolbenkopp on Wednesday 8th March 00:04
wemorgan said:
Does anyone know the size of the Alpine vs the competition? 1103kg seems quite impressive.
I'm surprised they didn't use some alternative truth scales to make the number 1099kg.
Yeah, bit of helium in the tyres or a forged wheel option and done I'm surprised they didn't use some alternative truth scales to make the number 1099kg.
. Size wise the thing is 5cm lower and 20cm shorter than a 718. Same width.blueg33 said:
PGNSagaris said:
WOW. Looks appalling and incoherent ...and with no manual and a £50k price tag it is making its life very difficult.
Original ones were cool, this looks a bloated mess.
Shows how subjective car design is. But design one to appeal to all and it just looks blandOriginal ones were cool, this looks a bloated mess.
There's a lot to like about the Apline but £50k is too rich for my blood.
I guess I would be in the target market for this as it is within budget, I have other more practical cars so can live with a compact sports car, and I want something more involving than the Golf R this would be replacing.
I do find the performance vs. the price a little off putting, I'm keen to see how much the standard edition will cost and I am keen to actually drive one. I'm sure part of the reason the 4C hasn't sold as well as it should is because of price, and the 4C has its fancy carbon tub to help justify the high price.
However the GT86/BRZ also hasn't sold as well and that is available new for half the price of a 4C/A110. Hell, you could even fit a turbo or supercharger, grippier tyres, and a big brake kit to the GT86/BRZ and still be ahead nearly £20k. Nissan still makes the 370z, while a bit fat in this company has a decent NA V6 and a manual box, and is ~£20k cheaper.
May be what is needed is for all four cars to enter the top trumps game of horsepower? Offer really cheap leases? Otherwise I am out of ideas why they don't sell like they used to.
I do find the performance vs. the price a little off putting, I'm keen to see how much the standard edition will cost and I am keen to actually drive one. I'm sure part of the reason the 4C hasn't sold as well as it should is because of price, and the 4C has its fancy carbon tub to help justify the high price.
However the GT86/BRZ also hasn't sold as well and that is available new for half the price of a 4C/A110. Hell, you could even fit a turbo or supercharger, grippier tyres, and a big brake kit to the GT86/BRZ and still be ahead nearly £20k. Nissan still makes the 370z, while a bit fat in this company has a decent NA V6 and a manual box, and is ~£20k cheaper.
May be what is needed is for all four cars to enter the top trumps game of horsepower? Offer really cheap leases? Otherwise I am out of ideas why they don't sell like they used to.
Kolbenkopp said:
wemorgan said:
Does anyone know the size of the Alpine vs the competition? 1103kg seems quite impressive.
I'm surprised they didn't use some alternative truth scales to make the number 1099kg.
Yeah, bit of helium in the tyres or a forged wheel option and done I'm surprised they didn't use some alternative truth scales to make the number 1099kg.
. Size wise the thing is 5cm lower and 20cm shorter than a 718. Same width.wemorgan said:
Even more impressive then to be ~250kg lighter for a similar sized vehicle. This can't be in the aluminium body structure alone, so I presume trim quality and spec will be quite a bit different too.
The thing is, the Porsche is genuinely lardy. It's the same weight as a Skoda Superb, for goodness sake!herebebeasties said:
The thing is, the Porsche is genuinely lardy. It's the same weight as a Skoda Superb, for goodness sake!
I don't know about the Porsche, but usually sports cars are heavy because of the load case requirements and specification. Adding unnecessary mass to a car can be expensive business, so manufacturers tend not to, unless it's cheaper to leave it on.
Maybe the Porsche is very stiff, giving it excellent ride and handling characteristics compared to the Skoda.
Manufacturers tend to use the ligh-weight index to describe a vehicle's stiffness as a function of it's mass and size.
I wonder how the Alpine and Cayman compare?
Edited by wemorgan on Wednesday 8th March 09:39
tankplanker said:
May be what is needed is for all four cars to enter the top trumps game of horsepower? Offer really cheap leases? Otherwise I am out of ideas why they don't sell like they used to.
People want big torque auto hatches. Not enough want sports cars. Look at the posts above to see how little people understand about economics. Cost to produce a sporty hatchback is quite low, make it a bespoke platform and it'll cost. Even when that platform works well (86, and the 4c with tweaks) people don't appreciate it because top trumps doesn't include handling.
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