RE: Lotus Elise Sprint

[giveitfish]

Lefty said:

Too expensive still.

The s1 was £18k in 1996. 20 years of CPI inflation takes that to about £27k. At £30k this would be a lot more attractive than it is at £37k.

This really does need to stop appearing on every Lotus thread.

I have the original invoice for my S1. It was over £26k in 2000. That's a much higher benchmark than £18k, and quite a lot more than the £19k a Golf GTI turbo cost back then.

[HeMightBeBanned]

Derek Chevalier said:

£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.

You know very little. I've pedalled my underpowered 135bhp S1 Elise around circuits faster than many a hot hatch. At Cadwell Park a couple of years ago, the owner of a 350bhp Focus RS was astonished that he couldn't overtake me.

In the hands of someone who isnt a clueless straight-line monkey (you?), I'm sure an Elise Sprint 220 would be more than adequate.

[Fire99]

Yes, I think the Lotus is at the higher end of 'Good Value' but I think it's a cracker of a car... The open gearshift is a nice near old-school touch..

It's a funny thing with Lotus but it seems to be almost obligatory to run the company down with every product. It's a shame because it's a small British company that produces a genuinely good product and seems to have a genuine passion for that product, beyond just making money...

[Derek Chevalier]

HeMightBeBanned said:

Derek Chevalier said:

£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.

You know very little. I've pedalled my underpowered 135bhp S1 Elise around circuits faster than many a hot hatch. At Cadwell Park a couple of years ago, the owner of a 350bhp Focus RS was astonished that he couldn't overtake me.

In the hands of someone who isnt a clueless straight-line monkey (you?), I'm sure an Elise Sprint 220 would be more than adequate.

See Olivera's example above. I can assure you that your Elise would've been left for dead by something like an R26.R, even when driven like a clueless straight-line monkey like me.
A base S1 Elise was on a par with a 106GTI in a 1996 test round Thruxton I seem to recall.

[kambites]

I'd tend to agree, they're not particularly quick cars either in a straight line or around a track. That's not really the point though, they're not meant to be racing cars.

[Tickle]

kambites said:

rogerhudson said:

They look like Austin Metro parts-bin leftovers.

That's because they are. They do the job, to moan about the aestetics of the mirrors is arguably to rather miss the point of the car. Anyway, there are worse parts-bin components still in the car than the mirrors; the stalks are horrible if that sort of thing concerns you.

Re. the price, it does seem an awful lot for what it is. Unfortunately, where mainstream mass-produced vehicles have got continually cheaper (in real terms) as production-line automation has increased, Lotus' costs are probably largely unchanged from the early days of the S1 Elise. One could also argue that the continued sanitisation of mainstream "sports cars" means that the Elise's USP is stronger than ever, though.

Edited by kambites on Friday 17th March 20:23

Rover 100 mirrors and Ferrari F40 heater vents, quite a mix of parts bin specials on the S1.

[poing]

That profile pic looks just perfect, great stance.

[SidewaysSi]

Derek Chevalier said:

HeMightBeBanned said:

Derek Chevalier said:

£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.

You know very little. I've pedalled my underpowered 135bhp S1 Elise around circuits faster than many a hot hatch. At Cadwell Park a couple of years ago, the owner of a 350bhp Focus RS was astonished that he couldn't overtake me.

In the hands of someone who isnt a clueless straight-line monkey (you?), I'm sure an Elise Sprint 220 would be more than adequate.

See Olivera's example above. I can assure you that your Elise would've been left for dead by something like an R26.R, even when driven like a clueless straight-line monkey like me.
A base S1 Elise was on a par with a 106GTI in a 1996 test round Thruxton I seem to recall.

So what? I genuinely couldn't give a fk. My Elise was nearly £30k in 2000.

[HeMightBeBanned]

Derek Chevalier said:

HeMightBeBanned said:

Derek Chevalier said:

£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.

You know very little. I've pedalled my underpowered 135bhp S1 Elise around circuits faster than many a hot hatch. At Cadwell Park a couple of years ago, the owner of a 350bhp Focus RS was astonished that he couldn't overtake me.

In the hands of someone who isnt a clueless straight-line monkey (you?), I'm sure an Elise Sprint 220 would be more than adequate.

See Olivera's example above. I can assure you that your Elise would've been left for dead by something like an R26.R, even when driven like a clueless straight-line monkey like me.
A base S1 Elise was on a par with a 106GTI in a 1996 test round Thruxton I seem to recall.

You say that, but there were a couple of R26.Rs and Clio 200 Cups at the same trackday (Javelin Trackdays, c.2013) and they were all unable to stay ahead or keep up. After all the accolades in the press, I was surprised at how crap their performance was. I expected to be quite slow at the start of the day. A friend came with me as a passenger (his first trackday) and at the start of the day kept pointing out all the fast FWD hatches that he'd read about. By lunchtime he'd started commenting how they seemed to get in the way. On the straight bits, yes, they do well. With 200 bhp I'd have monstered them on the straights as well as the bends.

[James-1u8cl]

Completely different car to a 106 Gti, both fantastic in their own ways but sharing great handling and fun based on power to weight ratios with the emphasis on the weight rather than the modern power emphasis.

I'll only be parted from my 106 Gti when I depart this world, last of the great old school hot hatches (with its 306 and rallye sisters) in my humble opinion.

Both released in 1996, you can't buy anything like the 106 Gti today but I think it's great you can still buy an Elise.

Thank-you Lotus.

[saaby93]

Are they still doing the half price lease deal?
You pay half the value of the car up front, keep it for two years and hand the car back.
Something like that

ETA here we go
http://www.lotuscars.com/offers/elise
nearly right

Edited by saaby93 on Friday 17th March 22:29

[Uncle John]

HeMightBeBanned said:

Derek Chevalier said:

HeMightBeBanned said:

Derek Chevalier said:

£37k is an extraordinary amount of money for something that would be way slower than a decent hot hatch in a straight line/round a circuit.

You know very little. I've pedalled my underpowered 135bhp S1 Elise around circuits faster than many a hot hatch. At Cadwell Park a couple of years ago, the owner of a 350bhp Focus RS was astonished that he couldn't overtake me.

In the hands of someone who isnt a clueless straight-line monkey (you?), I'm sure an Elise Sprint 220 would be more than adequate.

See Olivera's example above. I can assure you that your Elise would've been left for dead by something like an R26.R, even when driven like a clueless straight-line monkey like me.
A base S1 Elise was on a par with a 106GTI in a 1996 test round Thruxton I seem to recall.

You say that, but there were a couple of R26.Rs and Clio 200 Cups at the same trackday (Javelin Trackdays, c.2013) and they were all unable to stay ahead or keep up. After all the accolades in the press, I was surprised at how crap their performance was. I expected to be quite slow at the start of the day. A friend came with me as a passenger (his first trackday) and at the start of the day kept pointing out all the fast FWD hatches that he'd read about. By lunchtime he'd started commenting how they seemed to get in the way. On the straight bits, yes, they do well. With 200 bhp I'd have monstered them on the straights as well as the bends.

Agreed.

I've been on track with my 350 hp Focus RS & Elise's are quicker. Monstered the straights, medium for the corners.

I've been on track with my modified Cooper S & Elise's are quicker. Medium on straights, medium on corners.

Not as fast as my Westfield though.....

Elise's are quick.

A lot to be said for light weight & mid engine balance. They simply did not slow for the corners.

I've now the poor mans version, MR2 mk3, & in a similar vein, small power but corners are where it is won.

[Thorburn]

Vroom101 said:

Yep, £37k is a lot of money, but it can be argued the Elise is worth it.

Obviously if you need to carry more than one passenger, or transport a meaningful? amount of stuff, the the Elise is not going to be the car for you. Now a hot hatch is very good at what it does, and for some it would be the dog's danglies, but I doubt that a typical hot hatch buyer would even consider an Elise and vice-versa. Comparing the two is almost pointless. Although if we concentrate on your criteria of cost and performance we can give it a go.

Using your example of a 'decent' hot hatch, say a Golf GTI; a quick look on VW's website shows the cheapest petrol GTI costs £27,495 on the road for a three door. So £9.5k cheaper than the Elise. You're right - that's a whole heap of money, but I'll address that point in a minute.

Is it faster? 6.5 seconds to 60 Vs 5.9 for the Elise, so nope, not faster using that particular benchmark. And not only is the Golf slower accelerating, it will feel much slower because it's so insulated from the road. The Elise is also better balanced for track work, and will be kinder on its brakes, tyres and suspension due to its lower weight. The Golf does win on top speed though - 155mph Vs 127mph in the Lotus. So if you find a straight long enough, the Golf driver will pass the Lotus driver eventually. But then he'll have to brake sooner for the next corner, as the GTI is about half a ton heavier and that advantage is wiped out. And the Elise will be faster through that corner, too

Now let's come back to cost. If we take a typical period of three years for ownership, and take into account the total cost including tyres, servicing, fuel and depreciation, I would wager that the owner of a Golf GTI who did half a dozen track days a year would be worse off financially than if they had bought the Elise and done the same. So that initial price advantage doesn't quite stack up when you look at the whole picture.

When it comes down to it, though, it's simply a case of horses for courses. Some people want a relatively heavy, practical FWD hot hatch, some want a lightweight, impractical mid-engined sports car. Neither is the 'wrong' choice - it's just what suits that particular buyer.

Frankly just because a car is faster doesn't make it necessarily more interesting either. Currently have an Elise S1 with a whooping 118bhp, a 100bhp Fiesta Zetec-S, 180/200bhp Fiesta ST and regularly drive my Dad's M135i as he's no longer able to for health reasons.

Honestly, if I'm going out for a drive for fun, I'll take the Elise when the weather is nice and the Fiesta Zetec-S when it isn't. The others just aren't that much fun, like you say the ST and M135i insulate you too much from what is happening, numb steering and torquey turbo engines which aren't really designed to rev out, so you end up short shifting through and then realise you're approaching 3 figures and feel like you're doing about 55.

I've had the chance to drive the Exige V6 a few times, along with the supercharged Elises and the 1.6, and to be honest I don't think I'm much faster down a given road in the Exige than I am in the 1.6 - you're largely just backing off on the straights sooner. In reality you're more limited by sightlines and stopping distances.

[PunterCam]

Apart from adding poser weight with all that carbon fibre, it looks pretty good.

[big_rob_sydney]

Olivera said:

Vroom101 said:

Is it faster? 6.5 seconds to 60 Vs 5.9 for the Elise, so nope, not faster using that particular benchmark. And not only is the Golf slower accelerating, it will feel much slower because it's so insulated from the road. The Elise is also better balanced for track work, and will be kinder on its brakes, tyres and suspension due to its lower weight. The Golf does win on top speed though - 155mph Vs 127mph in the Lotus. So if you find a straight long enough, the Golf driver will pass the Lotus driver eventually. But then he'll have to brake sooner for the next corner, as the GTI is about half a ton heavier and that advantage is wiped out. And the Elise will be faster through that corner, too

Many years ago Evo magazine tested a Mk2 Leon Cupra vs an Elise Club Racer 1.6 around Bedford Autodrome. The Elise was beaten in every performance metric including lap time, the latter by a significant amount. Since then hot hatches have got much faster still whilst the Elise is more or less the same...

I'd just want to point out one thing here; speed across a single lap is one thing. Pounding out metronomic laps is another, if the intended purpose was to do a large number of track days, etc. It would be interesting to see what the eventual cost was of both these vehicles, because it may be that the slower car costs less. That would make a lot of sense, if that were true.

[Thorburn]

Olivera said:

Many years ago Evo magazine tested a Mk2 Leon Cupra vs an Elise Club Racer 1.6 around Bedford Autodrome. The Elise was beaten in every performance metric including lap time, the latter by a significant amount. Since then hot hatches have got much faster still whilst the Elise is more or less the same...

Ignoring the fact that the 1.6 is pretty much the slowest Elise? On paper is slower than a base S1.

Unsurprisingly the Sport 220 is a lot faster, what with having about 60% more power and bags more torque.

[Kolbenkopp]

Very nice car, really like that. Think Mr. Gales is doing it right, focusing on what they have and improving it where it matters. A Sprint in 1.6 NA guise is going to be a rare thing tough at the price.

But looks like they have decent enough sales at the moment and using the factory capacity. Only going from weak evidence here, but e.g. despite the strong EUR vs. GBP, they haven't lowered the EU prices even a bit. Which tells me they are happy with the pricing / amount they sell at the moment.

[Derek Chevalier]

Thorburn said:

Olivera said:

Many years ago Evo magazine tested a Mk2 Leon Cupra vs an Elise Club Racer 1.6 around Bedford Autodrome. The Elise was beaten in every performance metric including lap time, the latter by a significant amount. Since then hot hatches have got much faster still whilst the Elise is more or less the same...

Ignoring the fact that the 1.6 is pretty much the slowest Elise? On paper is slower than a base S1.

Unsurprisingly the Sport 220 is a lot faster, what with having about 60% more power and bags more torque.

Fair point. An Elise with a fair bit more power (such as (older model) Elise SC) seems to be on a par with a decent hot hatch of similar era.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/anglesey-national

[SidewaysSi]

Derek Chevalier said:

Thorburn said:

Olivera said:

Many years ago Evo magazine tested a Mk2 Leon Cupra vs an Elise Club Racer 1.6 around Bedford Autodrome. The Elise was beaten in every performance metric including lap time, the latter by a significant amount. Since then hot hatches have got much faster still whilst the Elise is more or less the same...

Ignoring the fact that the 1.6 is pretty much the slowest Elise? On paper is slower than a base S1.

Unsurprisingly the Sport 220 is a lot faster, what with having about 60% more power and bags more torque.

Fair point. An Elise with a fair bit more power (such as (older model) Elise SC) seems to be on a par with a decent hot hatch of similar era.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/anglesey-national

As has been said, it is not really the point if the car. The average hot hatch buyer won't be cross shopping with an Elise. And vice versa.

[HeMightBeBanned]

SidewaysSi said:

As has been said, it is not really the point if the car. The average hot hatch buyer won't be cross shopping with an Elise. And vice versa.

Oh I dunno. I have a hot hatch as well as the Elise.