RE: Hybrids are the 'next diesel': Tell Me I'm Wrong

[liner33]

I'm very interested in hydrogen cars but cant help thinking that ship has sailed , in the next 5-10 years electric cars will be as practical an option to suit 90% of drivers, battery technology is changing so rapidly, there just wont be the time to get hydrogen as a realistic alternative in that time

[MKnight702]

JonnyVTEC said:

Thats the highly toxic stuff that was actually in power tools in the 1990s rather than hybrid cars today and are sealed in a metal box rather than pumped into the air like combustion pollution?

Yeah okay let's invent a tax, we shall call it Clarksonism tax - it will apply to those who regurgitate that one episode many years after it occurred.

Just because the idiot Clarkson said something doesn't necessarily make it crap (it is highly likely I grant you, but an infinite number of monkeys and all that.)

So, once these cars reach the end of their lives and get sent to the great environmental havens called scrap yards, who do you think will pick up the bill for recycling the toxic crap that is currently sealed in a convenient metal box? Will the local council just bury it or will there need to be some sort of industrial recovery process? Again, who will pay for this? If you expect the final owner to pay the bill for the recycling then I think you may find these cars getting dumped by unregistered owners since who would pay more than the old banger cost to get it taken away? The simplest (and fairest) way would be to tax all the owners over the life of the car through the tax disc process, a bit like diesel owners so my comparison stands.

[liner33]

What do they do with the batteries off other devices currently?

[liner33]

Of course in the case of the Prius , Toyota want the batteries back and they recycle them

[JonnyVTEC]

MKnight702 said:

Just because the idiot Clarkson said something doesn't necessarily make it crap (it is highly likely I grant you, but an infinite number of monkeys and all that.)

So, once these cars reach the end of their lives and get sent to the great environmental havens called scrap yards, who do you think will pick up the bill for recycling the toxic crap that is currently sealed in a convenient metal box? Will the local council just bury it or will there need to be some sort of industrial recovery process? Again, who will pay for this? If you expect the final owner to pay the bill for the recycling then I think you may find these cars getting dumped by unregistered owners since who would pay more than the old banger cost to get it taken away? The simplest (and fairest) way would be to tax all the owners over the life of the car through the tax disc process, a bit like diesel owners so my comparison stands.

http://www.hybridcars.com/honda-now-recycling-rare-earth-metals-for-batteries/

Ive got one in my garage anyway, seems pretty happy there unlike the litres of oil I still need to take the tip. Also I don't worry about my petrol waste as the exhaust pipe conveniently sends what was once liquid material direct into the air.

Out of sight out of mind yeah?

[caelite]

cptsideways said:

I was recently involved in a government scheme to promote Electric & Hydrogen powered vehicles, I had a Hydrogen powered car to play with, decent range, did everything an electric car does. The tech is there from the manufacturers. The problem is hydrogen distribution.

I had a good chat with one of the geeks who the government have employed, amazingly he knew what he was on about. He suggested the next big step will be hydrogen & to overcome the distribution problem someone has come up with a brilliant solution, that is currently getting backing, with several providers in the running. Remote solar/wind powered micro hydrogen plants/stations.

There are solar & wind farms popping up everywhere, as renewable energy source becomes available locally. Plug in a remote hydrogen generating plant, hey presto you have a hydrogen stations all over the place with no distribution network.

Like this http://www.itm-power.com/news-item/launch-of-m1-wi...

Yup, I can see Hydrogen taking off, the issue with battery tech is there is bugger all on the horizon and, in their current form, are a short sited solution as they are uneconomical to recycle, toxic to produce and fragile to environmental factors, I think if hydro distribution can be nailed down properly it will quickly take over.

A hardened hydrogen storage vessel is no more dangerous in a crash than a lithium battery or big tank full of petrol, all comparatively dangerous when compared to a nice big tank of inert diesel oil .

Best part is, for us mechanical purists, hydrogen can be put in a chamber and exploded just as easily as it can be fed through a fuel cell, leaving the door open for ultra high compression revvy N/A hydro cars . Of course this is inherently less efficient but still, more than viable. Existing engines are also able to be converted, with tougher valve trains, and a redesigned delivery system, allowing classics to remain viable on the road just as they where when we went from leaded to unleaded.

Personally I don't see why petrol heads are so quick to dismiss hydrogen on here in favour of battery power, it truly is the more advantageous fuel for the enthusiast.

[otolith]

MKnight702 said:

I am waiting for the reaction of the Guardian readers when the government slap on a massive tax hike for the Prius et al due to the highly toxic battery technology because environment.

Which highly toxic substances are you particularly interested in, and how do they compare to the disposal issues of existing ICE cars?

[AstonZagato]

Cupramax said:

ruggedscotty said:

I reckon we will have 200 250 mile charges within 2 to 3 minutes. then petrol will be dead.

Nope, ive just checked and its 6 minutes now and definitely not

Which is why hybrids have a (temporary) role. They neatly sidestep the 'range anxiety' issue. Hydrogen fuel cells will be able to deliver such a rapid recharge - but we first need to solve to storage and distribution issues.

My first day with a PHEV was a series of short (sub-10 mile) journeys. All done exclusively on battery power. Current mpg of ownership is infinite.

[MKnight702]

otolith said:

Which highly toxic substances are you particularly interested in, and how do they compare to the disposal issues of existing ICE cars?

Who says the government has to base this tax on reality rather than publically perceived reality, after all Co2 worked well enough.

[anonymous-user]

'Hydrogen' cars also have batteries! To reduce consumption, you need to be able to recapture KE, and soon vehicles that can't do this will look about as antiquated as a horse and cart........

[JonnyVTEC]

caelite said:

Personally I don't see why petrol heads are so quick to dismiss hydrogen on here in favour of battery power, it truly is the more advantageous fuel for the enthusiast.

High proportion are probably engineers. A fuel cell is just a hybrid rather than pure EV, except with a daft fuel that you have to make, cryogenically storage and deal with hydrogen embrittlement of anything remotely related to hydrocarbon distribution. Oh and don't park one in your garage.

[RobDickinson]

JonnyVTEC said:

caelite said:

Personally I don't see why petrol heads are so quick to dismiss hydrogen on here in favour of battery power, it truly is the more advantageous fuel for the enthusiast.

High proportion are probably engineers. A fuel cell is just a hybrid rather than pure EV, except with a daft fuel that you have to make, cryogenically storage and deal with hydrogen embrittlement of anything remotely related to hydrocarbon distribution. Oh and don't park one in your garage.

You can be a dedicated petrolhead but still see hydrogen as the red herring it is.

[Mr GrimNasty]

JonnyVTEC said:

caelite said:

Personally I don't see why petrol heads are so quick to dismiss hydrogen on here in favour of battery power, it truly is the more advantageous fuel for the enthusiast.

High proportion are probably engineers. A fuel cell is just a hybrid rather than pure EV, except with a daft fuel that you have to make, cryogenically storage and deal with hydrogen embrittlement of anything remotely related to hydrocarbon distribution. Oh and don't park one in your garage.

The entire UK gas grid is going over to hydrogen, Leeds is first on the list.

Battery cars are a dead end - for many reasons, direct power pick up or fuel cell or alternative fuel ICE will prevail.

[otolith]

caelite said:

Best part is, for us mechanical purists, hydrogen can be put in a chamber and exploded just as easily as it can be fed through a fuel cell, leaving the door open for ultra high compression revvy N/A hydro cars . Of course this is inherently less efficient but still, more than viable. Existing engines are also able to be converted, with tougher valve trains, and a redesigned delivery system, allowing classics to remain viable on the road just as they where when we went from leaded to unleaded.

Personally I don't see why petrol heads are so quick to dismiss hydrogen on here in favour of battery power, it truly is the more advantageous fuel for the enthusiast.

I think you mean "horrifically inefficient and a complete non-starter". A fuel cell H car will go 33 miles on the electricity that would give a battery car a range of 100 miles. A h-powered ICE would be a chunk worse, and the performance of the battery car will likely blow it into the weeds.

[RobDickinson]

Leeds might be on piped hydrogen by 2030. doesnt look like they have even made a decision. It will need all gas powered appliances to be converted.

It still would need that gas to be liquefied and stored locally to fuel cars, and the whole process is still less efficient than just putting the electricity directly into a BEV.

its either irrelevant or would actually increase the cost of a h2 service station because they would need machinery and energy to liquefy the h2


As a possible way of lowering carbon emissions for in home heating it might work, I dont see its relevance to vehicles