What is the "best" 4 cylinder engine ever made?

[coppice]

Gad-Westy said:

.

To me it has to be a really angry sounding, revvy NA. I could think of umpteen race engines or near race engines that found their way into road cars but a lot of those are a bit too needy for my tastes. Of the more livable examples I've experienced, my three stand outs have been the BMW S14 engine, Honda K20 (it's the best really isn't it? I'm just loathe to single it out as it's so obvious) and a cool little dark horse entry was the 1400cc k-series in a supersport caterham. It made 130 bhp I believe, had no torque but had a lovely lack of inertia and revved so cleanly with a great bark. I'd love to built a 7 with one of those and the roller barrel throttles from the R500. A near boggo 1.8 k-series would have been a much easier way to get 130bhp but be far less interesting.

I cannot get excited about stuff like the AMG turbo engine above or the or any of the endless VAG TFSI type options. I've had a couple and I'm sure I'll have more as they're very effective, efficient etc particularly when paired to some 50 speed auto box but to be honest an EV probably offers those qualities more effectively.

I had a 1.4K SS and it sounded amazing . As you say , no torque but revved forever. I later had a RBTB Duratec which sounded mean , pulled hard but lacked the little K's joie de vivre . 'Best '4 cylinder in this thread is 'ones I Iike ' and all the fours I really like are in racing and rally cars .But VAG 1.9PDI, yes I had one, very efficient , pulled hard but it's not a Cosworth MAE , FVC or BDA is it ?

[biggbn]

coppice said:

Gad-Westy said:

.

To me it has to be a really angry sounding, revvy NA. I could think of umpteen race engines or near race engines that found their way into road cars but a lot of those are a bit too needy for my tastes. Of the more livable examples I've experienced, my three stand outs have been the BMW S14 engine, Honda K20 (it's the best really isn't it? I'm just loathe to single it out as it's so obvious) and a cool little dark horse entry was the 1400cc k-series in a supersport caterham. It made 130 bhp I believe, had no torque but had a lovely lack of inertia and revved so cleanly with a great bark. I'd love to built a 7 with one of those and the roller barrel throttles from the R500. A near boggo 1.8 k-series would have been a much easier way to get 130bhp but be far less interesting.

I cannot get excited about stuff like the AMG turbo engine above or the or any of the endless VAG TFSI type options. I've had a couple and I'm sure I'll have more as they're very effective, efficient etc particularly when paired to some 50 speed auto box but to be honest an EV probably offers those qualities more effectively.

I had a 1.4K SS and it sounded amazing . As you say , no torque but revved forever. I later had a RBTB Duratec which sounded mean , pulled hard but lacked the little K's joie de vivre . 'Best '4 cylinder in this thread is 'ones I Iike ' and all the fours I really like are in racing and rally cars .But VAG 1.9PDI, yes I had one, very efficient , pulled hard but it's not a Cosworth MAE , FVC or BDA is it ?

And again, it all cones down to your definition of best?

[alfaspecial]

biggbn said:

And again, it all cones down to your definition of best?

And 'when' is also a consideration - as in comparison to it's competitors at the time of introduction



What is the better engine the (from 1952) 'B' Series as in an MGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMC_B-series_engine




or the (from 1954) Alfa Romeo Twin Cam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Twin_Cam_...




Sorry, no-brainer.....




The Alfa engine is more powerful, lighter and is a thing of beauty IMHO

[sunbeam alpine]

alfaspecial said:

biggbn said:

And again, it all cones down to your definition of best?

And 'when' is also a consideration - as in comparison to it's competitors at the time of introduction



What is the better engine the (from 1952) 'B' Series as in an MGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMC_B-series_engine




or the (from 1954) Alfa Romeo Twin Cam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Twin_Cam_...




Sorry, no-brainer.....




The Alfa engine is more powerful, lighter and is a thing of beauty IMHO

Definitely no argument from me (I think I posted the Nord earlier in the thread), but my favourite is the 1600cc version. The 1750 and 2000 are torquier, and the 1300 needs the nuts revved off it to get anywhere, but the 1600 is the sweet spot (IMVHO).

[Lotobear]

sunbeam alpine said:

alfaspecial said:

biggbn said:

And again, it all cones down to your definition of best?

And 'when' is also a consideration - as in comparison to it's competitors at the time of introduction



What is the better engine the (from 1952) 'B' Series as in an MGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMC_B-series_engine




or the (from 1954) Alfa Romeo Twin Cam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_Twin_Cam_...




Sorry, no-brainer.....




The Alfa engine is more powerful, lighter and is a thing of beauty IMHO

Definitely no argument from me (I think I posted the Nord earlier in the thread), but my favourite is the 1600cc version. The 1750 and 2000 are torquier, and the 1300 needs the nuts revved off it to get anywhere, but the 1600 is the sweet spot (IMVHO).

I was recently running a 2000 S2 Alfa Spider Veloce, alongside my Lotus Elan and would say whilst the Nord is a very fine engine and way ahead of its time when introduced the Lotus TC was a much sweeter unit. I like them both but those pesky cigarette seals on the Nord are a bloody nightmare, along with the rubber carb mounts.

[Lotobear]

coppice said:

Gad-Westy said:

.

To me it has to be a really angry sounding, revvy NA. I could think of umpteen race engines or near race engines that found their way into road cars but a lot of those are a bit too needy for my tastes. Of the more livable examples I've experienced, my three stand outs have been the BMW S14 engine, Honda K20 (it's the best really isn't it? I'm just loathe to single it out as it's so obvious) and a cool little dark horse entry was the 1400cc k-series in a supersport caterham. It made 130 bhp I believe, had no torque but had a lovely lack of inertia and revved so cleanly with a great bark. I'd love to built a 7 with one of those and the roller barrel throttles from the R500. A near boggo 1.8 k-series would have been a much easier way to get 130bhp but be far less interesting.

I cannot get excited about stuff like the AMG turbo engine above or the or any of the endless VAG TFSI type options. I've had a couple and I'm sure I'll have more as they're very effective, efficient etc particularly when paired to some 50 speed auto box but to be honest an EV probably offers those qualities more effectively.

I had a 1.4K SS and it sounded amazing . As you say , no torque but revved forever. I later had a RBTB Duratec which sounded mean , pulled hard but lacked the little K's joie de vivre . 'Best '4 cylinder in this thread is 'ones I Iike ' and all the fours I really like are in racing and rally cars .But VAG 1.9PDI, yes I had one, very efficient , pulled hard but it's not a Cosworth MAE , FVC or BDA is it ?

Me too and with the 6 speed box it was a fabulous thing. I had it upgraded to 1.8K SS by Dave Andrews and whilst it was much faster it lost a lot of character and fun. Those 1.4SS Caterhams in original condition must be quite collectable now. The 6 speed was designed specifically to get the best from them.

[edDug_1000]

The V4 vtec in my gen 8 VFR 800 is quite exciting.

[AmyRichardson]

DaveTheRave87 said:

I checked through 9 pages of this thread before it was mentioned but I have to agree here.

Used in so many applications from repmobiles on an economy run along a motorway to a hot hatch Skoda Fabia VRS.

Definitely not the most exciting engine out but one of the most capable ever made.

If we were on the internet equivalent of"Practical Van and Minicab" magazine then I'd agree wholeheartedly.

But...

[Drive Blind]

DaveTheRave87 said:

biggbn said:

Can't remember if I've contributed to this thread before but 1.9tdi vag engine was a game changer

I checked through 9 pages of this thread before it was mentioned but I have to agree here.

Used in so many applications from repmobiles on an economy run along a motorway to a hot hatch Skoda Fabia VRS.

Definitely not the most exciting engine out but one of the most capable ever made.

[Baldchap]

Drive Blind said:

DaveTheRave87 said:

biggbn said:

Can't remember if I've contributed to this thread before but 1.9tdi vag engine was a game changer

I checked through 9 pages of this thread before it was mentioned but I have to agree here.

Used in so many applications from repmobiles on an economy run along a motorway to a hot hatch Skoda Fabia VRS.

Definitely not the most exciting engine out but one of the most capable ever made.

I do remember reading at one point it was used in 29 vehicles.

That's a fair badge of honour whether you like it or not...

[havoc]

Baldchap said:

I do remember reading at one point it was used in 29 vehicles.

That's a fair badge of honour whether you like it or not...

Given those 29 vehicles were only based off about 4 or 5 different platforms, not as big a badge as you might think.

...and whilst it was very effective, it wasn't a real game-changer as the PSA DW10 did a very similar job and was released around the same time - the PD's only unique feature was unit injection not common rail. And neither was exactly bombproof. Reliable and robust, yes, but both still had weak-points.

[Baldchap]

havoc said:

Baldchap said:

I do remember reading at one point it was used in 29 vehicles.

That's a fair badge of honour whether you like it or not...

Given those 29 vehicles were only based off about 4 or 5 different platforms, not as big a badge as you might think.

...and whilst it was very effective, it wasn't a real game-changer as the PSA DW10 did a very similar job and was released around the same time - the PD's only unique feature was unit injection not common rail. And neither was exactly bombproof. Reliable and robust, yes, but both still had weak-points.

I'm not for a second suggesting it's the best engine ever, or even particularly good in real terms.

Ubiquitous, mind.

[biggbn]

Baldchap said:

havoc said:

Baldchap said:

I do remember reading at one point it was used in 29 vehicles.

That's a fair badge of honour whether you like it or not...

Given those 29 vehicles were only based off about 4 or 5 different platforms, not as big a badge as you might think.

...and whilst it was very effective, it wasn't a real game-changer as the PSA DW10 did a very similar job and was released around the same time - the PD's only unique feature was unit injection not common rail. And neither was exactly bombproof. Reliable and robust, yes, but both still had weak-points.

I'm not for a second suggesting it's the best engine ever, or even particularly good in real terms.

Ubiquitous, mind.

I really like them. Old school grunt and go, relatively simple and I think it WAS a game changer. The PSA Tdi engines were crackers for sure but they were fond of a head gasket or two, in 1.7 form anyway. The old 1.9tdi VAG just kept on going. I knew a few owners who got quite a bot of reliable power out of their too, which is ironic because the TDI 150 factory motor was probably the least reliable version of the engine.

[njw1]

havoc said:

...and whilst it was very effective, it wasn't a real game-changer as the PSA DW10 did a very similar job and was released around the same time - the PD's only unique feature was unit injection not common rail. And neither was exactly bombproof. Reliable and robust, yes, but both still had weak-points.

The BMW M47 was also released at around the same time and I'd argue is better than both.

[havoc]

Baldchap said:

I'm not for a second suggesting it's the best engine ever, or even particularly good in real terms.
Ubiquitous, mind.

biggbn said:

I really like them. Old school grunt and go, relatively simple and I think it WAS a game changer. The PSA Tdi engines were crackers for sure but they were fond of a head gasket or two, in 1.7 form anyway.

Are you thinking of the old (pre-PSA link-up) Ford lump (which was a 1.7), or the smaller DV-series (1.5 / 1.6 IIRC) as the PSA "DW" series only came in 2.0 and larger, and the old XUD (the "DTurbo" non-common-rail diesel) was a 1.9.

[shirt]

A friend recently bought one of these for a song:



Hartley bolt. Based on the hayabusa but configured for longitudinal installation with conventional gearbox. Some very trick bits on it, especially the intercooler arrangement.

In standard form the bolt pattern is for a hewland ftr which I just happen to have from a stillborn project. That project has subsequently been reborn…

[biggbn]

havoc said:

Baldchap said:

I'm not for a second suggesting it's the best engine ever, or even particularly good in real terms.
Ubiquitous, mind.

biggbn said:

I really like them. Old school grunt and go, relatively simple and I think it WAS a game changer. The PSA Tdi engines were crackers for sure but they were fond of a head gasket or two, in 1.7 form anyway.

Are you thinking of the old (pre-PSA link-up) Ford lump (which was a 1.7), or the smaller DV-series (1.5 / 1.6 IIRC) as the PSA "DW" series only came in 2.0 and larger, and the old XUD (the "DTurbo" non-common-rail diesel) was a 1.9.

The one that was in the bx tzd is specifically the version I'm thinking about, thinkbthat was an xud wasn't it? Think it was 1769, 1900 and 2100, so incorrect labelling from me, I always called it a 1.7...same engine in Citroen Visa, C15d, 205d and dturbo? If not, my whole life has been a lie!!

Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 24th April 16:27

Edited by biggbn on Wednesday 24th April 16:29

[havoc]

Oh christ, that lump predates the PD by at least a decade.

The "HDI" branded motors came out 1999 / 2000, so contemporaneous with the PD. They started at 2.0 and then a 2.2 16v derivative sprouted off, and Ford 'partnered' (read borrowed the design/tech) on it.

[GeniusOfLove]

AmyRichardson said:

DaveTheRave87 said:

I checked through 9 pages of this thread before it was mentioned but I have to agree here.

Used in so many applications from repmobiles on an economy run along a motorway to a hot hatch Skoda Fabia VRS.

Definitely not the most exciting engine out but one of the most capable ever made.

If we were on the internet equivalent of"Practical Van and Minicab" magazine then I'd agree wholeheartedly.

But...

Quite. I think it's only claim to fame is a 5,000 fold increase in boring knobbers who've never driven a decent car using the phrases "goes like a rocket" and "pulls like a train" to refer to 130bhp dross.

Miserable agricultural thing, the thin end of the wedge for the utter insanity of putting diesel burning engines in passenger cars that gripped Europe for 15 unhappy years.

[otolith]

GeniusOfLove said:

AmyRichardson said:

DaveTheRave87 said:

I checked through 9 pages of this thread before it was mentioned but I have to agree here.

Used in so many applications from repmobiles on an economy run along a motorway to a hot hatch Skoda Fabia VRS.

Definitely not the most exciting engine out but one of the most capable ever made.

If we were on the internet equivalent of"Practical Van and Minicab" magazine then I'd agree wholeheartedly.

But...

Quite. I think it's only claim to fame is a 5,000 fold increase in boring knobbers who've never driven a decent car using the phrases "goes like a rocket" and "pulls like a train" to refer to 130bhp dross.

Miserable agricultural thing, the thin end of the wedge for the utter insanity of putting diesel burning engines in passenger cars that gripped Europe for 15 unhappy years.

Not four cylinders, but if sales figures are the answer I wonder how many lawnmower engines Briggs & Stratton have flogged?