RE: Toyota GT86: PH Videoblog
Discussion
There's nothing wrong with the standard output. It just shouldn't have the torque hole in the midrange, and it shouldn't sound like a bucket of bolts. A car that needs to be revved should sound like it likes being revved. The 86/BRZ doesn't even mind being above 5000 all day....it just never sounds sweet doing it. It always sounds crude. It's outputs are very decent for a NA 2.0.....it just has zero charisma.
RBH58 said:
It's very good car but it would be a great car with a sweeter powerplant. Sure, a few extra HP wouldn't go astray but only a few. It's not massively underpowered. If the engine had an ND MX5's linearity (no torque dips) and sweetness when revved, even if it only produced the same 205hp as now, the car would be elevated to 5* status. Unfortunately the FA20's respectable output comes with a big hole in the mid-range, it sounds like a bucket of bolts, and whilst you can drive it all day between 5000 and 7400 you'd only do it to make rapid progress...certainly not so you could revel in the intoxicating engine noises. The FA20 is a bit of a lump and it stops the car from being a "great" car
Completely agree, we run a BBR Super 200 ND MX5 with a tad more but similar power to the 86. Appreciate that it is not strictly a fair comparison but driving the two back to back is shocking, the engines are absolutely poles apart.I know they are strangled with emissions nonsense but it is a shame they couldn't do anything to sweeten the engine and power delivery as part of the facelift .... bloody emissions regs partly to blame for this I guess.
Still think it's a fab car BTW !!
Edited by Simon Owen on Thursday 6th April 22:17
big_rob_sydney said:
For those that really must have the power, there are plenty of aftermarket solutions out there. You can even shed some weight (eg li-ion battery), so that you'll have a car with a better power to weight ratio, and still retain the rest of the cars positive traits.
All very positive things, should one be so inclined.
Very valid comment, that's why I don't get why people complain it's underpowered. Rather shocked the comment came from you though! All very positive things, should one be so inclined.
If there was a factory turbo version everyone would complain it's way too expensive and no-one would buy it.
renrut said:
The GT86 was going to be my next car. Sweet handling, decent NA engine (one less thing to go wrong in my book), lovely driving position, steering feedback and gearchange. I even quite liked the Toyota attitude to control i.e. no frills, just ergonomics and functionality. It even came in a nice Orange colour! I would even have stretched my budget to a new one as it felt like a keeper!
Then I tried to use the +2 seats in the back for my 4yr old. He didn't fit. At all. Legs bunched up even without the booster seat. And lets face it they only get bigger with time. Shame but now the car I thought ticked every box missed the only one that completely ruled it out.
But then the saleman who saw this said "theres a new model coming out this year, it's supposed to be getting stretched in the middle so the rear seats are usable". Looks like he had been told rubbish. This car may as well be a 2 seater and save the 100kg or whatever.
Maybe I should look at RX-8s or soemthing like that...
My thoughts entirely. I would have swapped my E36 328i coupe for one but they are terribly impractical - way too small to be our family car (have a 5 month old). So I am keeping the BMW. Then I tried to use the +2 seats in the back for my 4yr old. He didn't fit. At all. Legs bunched up even without the booster seat. And lets face it they only get bigger with time. Shame but now the car I thought ticked every box missed the only one that completely ruled it out.
But then the saleman who saw this said "theres a new model coming out this year, it's supposed to be getting stretched in the middle so the rear seats are usable". Looks like he had been told rubbish. This car may as well be a 2 seater and save the 100kg or whatever.
Maybe I should look at RX-8s or soemthing like that...
And not special enough to be a weekend car (GT4, Caterham and Elise for that, all of which blow the GT86 away as a driver's car).
A real shame.
braddo said:
big_rob_sydney said:
For those that really must have the power, there are plenty of aftermarket solutions out there. You can even shed some weight (eg li-ion battery), so that you'll have a car with a better power to weight ratio, and still retain the rest of the cars positive traits.
All very positive things, should one be so inclined.
Very valid comment, that's why I don't get why people complain it's underpowered. Rather shocked the comment came from you though! All very positive things, should one be so inclined.
If there was a factory turbo version everyone would complain it's way too expensive and no-one would buy it.
"Too much power is barely enough."
Better?
SidewaysSi said:
My thoughts entirely. I would have swapped my E36 328i coupe for one but they are terribly impractical - way too small to be our family car (have a 5 month old). So I am keeping the BMW.
And not special enough to be a weekend car (GT4, Caterham and Elise for that, all of which blow the GT86 away as a driver's car).
A real shame.
Funny you say that, I test drove one just the other day and it was a fantastic steer... But as a "toy" an Elise is so much of an event. Same with the others you'd mentioned... And the MX5 / Boxster can drop the hood for some extra drama.And not special enough to be a weekend car (GT4, Caterham and Elise for that, all of which blow the GT86 away as a driver's car).
A real shame.
A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
Great review.
Are you sure you actually turned all the electronic aids off? My understanding is that to go from track mode to everything-off mode you had to stop the car and press the TRC button for three seconds. I think what you did was turn TSC from 'track' to 'off' but kept the VSC in 'track' i.e. still sort of on.
This is based on the manual, haven't actually tried it yet.
Are you sure you actually turned all the electronic aids off? My understanding is that to go from track mode to everything-off mode you had to stop the car and press the TRC button for three seconds. I think what you did was turn TSC from 'track' to 'off' but kept the VSC in 'track' i.e. still sort of on.
This is based on the manual, haven't actually tried it yet.
RemarkLima said:
Funny you say that, I test drove one just the other day and it was a fantastic steer... But as a "toy" an Elise is so much of an event. Same with the others you'd mentioned... And the MX5 / Boxster can drop the hood for some extra drama.
A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
Quite surprised by that. I thought it'd would've been right up your alley.A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
Why don't people get it. If it was more powerful then it would need more grip which means less fun. If you want a faster car then get something else. They used a boxer to lower the centre of gravity. There's a dip in the midrange due to the way its been mapped to keep the environment folks happy. They couldn't use a turbo due to lack of space. They may use a Supercharger in the future but in the expense of grippier fatter tyres and less fun.
I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
I'm still yet to re-book a test drive of one of these that i cancelled. I'm honestly not sure it's the car for me regardless. I like hot hatches and no matter how much i try and talk myself out of them and convince myself that a RWD sports car is what i want/need, i always end up looking at Clio's again. I really don't wanna waste both mine and their time.
I admire the GT86 for what it is though. I'm not comparing it to any hot-hatch as that misses the point completely. It's a shame really as it has all the right ingredients for such a pure driving experience, yet it seems to get nothing but negativity on here. I personally think that they should do a turbo version, but without the daft expectation of numbers that people seen to expect. Give it a little more bhp, let's say, beginning with the number 2 and a similar torque figure. However, i'd then expect nothing but high-praise which, of course, wouldn't happen.
I admire the GT86 for what it is though. I'm not comparing it to any hot-hatch as that misses the point completely. It's a shame really as it has all the right ingredients for such a pure driving experience, yet it seems to get nothing but negativity on here. I personally think that they should do a turbo version, but without the daft expectation of numbers that people seen to expect. Give it a little more bhp, let's say, beginning with the number 2 and a similar torque figure. However, i'd then expect nothing but high-praise which, of course, wouldn't happen.
Trophy-GTA said:
Why don't people get it. If it was more powerful then it would need more grip which means less fun. If you want a faster car then get something else. They used a boxer to lower the centre of gravity. There's a dip in the midrange due to the way its been mapped to keep the environment folks happy. They couldn't use a turbo due to lack of space. They may use a Supercharger in the future but in the expense of grippier fatter tyres and less fun.
I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
Completely get it ... it's not about more power, I was just disappointed with the way in which it was delivered that's all.I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
Simon Owen said:
Trophy-GTA said:
Why don't people get it. If it was more powerful then it would need more grip which means less fun. If you want a faster car then get something else. They used a boxer to lower the centre of gravity. There's a dip in the midrange due to the way its been mapped to keep the environment folks happy. They couldn't use a turbo due to lack of space. They may use a Supercharger in the future but in the expense of grippier fatter tyres and less fun.
I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
Completely get it ... it's not about more power, I was just disappointed with the way in which it was delivered that's all.I would love to own a standard one and get some lessons in car control and drifting. Then go out and have me some fun with it!
The engine is catastrophically bad IMO but I have no issues with anyone liking it - I don't think they don't get it.
I would have preferred a higher COG with a "normal" engine.
As for grip/fun, increasing lat grip doesn't remove fun, the balance remains the same - the tyres might simply have a fighting chance not to melt on track.
nickfrog said:
That's the thing with the GT86 - people say you don't get it if you don't like it - even of you've owned it / tracked it when they might at best only have had a short test drive themselves.
It's a silly thing to say, I agree, but then it's usually in response to people who make stupid statements about the car based on nothing but hyperbolic criticism of it's power.Saying "I don't really like it, I would prefer more power" or "I don't like the engine because it lacks character, etc" is fine, I absolutely understand that.
Saying "This car is terrible without xxx amount of power", "Needs a turbo to be any good", "it's pathetically slow", "Car is crap because a 320d is better away from the lights" is nonconstructive nonsense for pub bores and internet d
heads. It's a narrow minded opinion of what makes the car great. I'm well aware a 320d is faster away from the lights, but I don't care because I can't imagine myself getting up early for a Sunday morning drive in a 320d I've owned mine for 3.5 years now, and I am still enjoying it immensely. I'm aware the power is modest, and aside from the torque dip in the midrange, it doesn't bother me too much. I don't care about 0-60 times, track racing, or competing with hot hatches. I was thinking recently about what I'd like to replace the car with, and honestly, I really can't think of much apart from maybe the new MX5...but even that wouldn't feel like much of an upgrade.
My two biggest criticisms are the ones I think most people would agree plague the car and are responsible for it attracting a lot of hate - the engine feels a bit flat in the midrange and doesn't make a very nice noise. Those two weaknesses are apparently quite easy to vastly improve with a replacement exhaust manifold and a remap. So I've decided that rather than swapping the car for something else, I'm going to spend a little money modifying it and aim to keep hold of it for several more years. I think that's a testament to how good the car is, personally.
Conscript said:
I was thinking recently about what I'd like to replace the car with, and honestly, I really can't think of much apart from maybe the new MX5...but even that wouldn't feel like much of an upgrade.
My two biggest criticisms are the ones I think most people would agree plague the car and are responsible for it attracting a lot of hate - the engine feels a bit flat in the midrange and doesn't make a very nice noise. Those two weaknesses are apparently quite easy to vastly improve with a replacement exhaust manifold and a remap. So I've decided that rather than swapping the car for something else, I'm going to spend a little money modifying it and aim to keep hold of it for several more years. I think that's a testament to how good the car is, personally.
From what i have read i recon that will be a very smart move, looking at the graphs the aftermarket brigade fill the torque dip and add a tad more power at the same time, i would also guess a bit more character too ? My two biggest criticisms are the ones I think most people would agree plague the car and are responsible for it attracting a lot of hate - the engine feels a bit flat in the midrange and doesn't make a very nice noise. Those two weaknesses are apparently quite easy to vastly improve with a replacement exhaust manifold and a remap. So I've decided that rather than swapping the car for something else, I'm going to spend a little money modifying it and aim to keep hold of it for several more years. I think that's a testament to how good the car is, personally.
Tuning Developments package at £1.5k looks pretty good value to me ?
I have done this with the new MX5 and the results are fantastic ... far exceeded my expectations in terms of engine performance and character, albeit i think BBR had a slightly better canvas to work with given Mazdas' investment in the NA route to power and torque.
Good luck and let us know how you get on !!
Rawwr said:
RemarkLima said:
Funny you say that, I test drove one just the other day and it was a fantastic steer... But as a "toy" an Elise is so much of an event. Same with the others you'd mentioned... And the MX5 / Boxster can drop the hood for some extra drama.
A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
Quite surprised by that. I thought it'd would've been right up your alley.A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
I think it felt like if I were to have £15k sat on the driveway, only being used on occasion it just wasn't special enough. If I had a driven commute then maybe, but sadly the 3 series is a decent enough steer, whilst fitting in kids and associated carp(sic) that the difference wasn't great enough.
I'll go try a leggy 996, a leggier 997, a Boxster, an Elise and MX5 to be able to see if it's just rose-tinted sunglasses or cars have all just become a bit tame... I hoping it's not the latter
RemarkLima said:
Rawwr said:
RemarkLima said:
Funny you say that, I test drove one just the other day and it was a fantastic steer... But as a "toy" an Elise is so much of an event. Same with the others you'd mentioned... And the MX5 / Boxster can drop the hood for some extra drama.
A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
Quite surprised by that. I thought it'd would've been right up your alley.A shame, as I was hoping to walk away pining for one.
I think it felt like if I were to have £15k sat on the driveway, only being used on occasion it just wasn't special enough. If I had a driven commute then maybe, but sadly the 3 series is a decent enough steer, whilst fitting in kids and associated carp(sic) that the difference wasn't great enough.
I'll go try a leggy 996, a leggier 997, a Boxster, an Elise and MX5 to be able to see if it's just rose-tinted sunglasses or cars have all just become a bit tame... I hoping it's not the latter
However it's the well roundedness that means it fills so many of my criteria for a one car garage.
(I have no kids btw!)
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