RE: Toyota GT86: PH Videoblog
Discussion
Simon Owen said:
From what i have read i recon that will be a very smart move, looking at the graphs the aftermarket brigade fill the torque dip and add a tad more power at the same time, i would also guess a bit more character too ?
Tuning Developments package at £1.5k looks pretty good value to me ?
I have done this with the new MX5 and the results are fantastic ... far exceeded my expectations in terms of engine performance and character, albeit i think BBR had a slightly better canvas to work with given Mazdas' investment in the NA route to power and torque.
Good luck and let us know how you get on !!
I'm in a similar position; when my finance is paid off the Tuning Developments NA kit will be one of the options I consider. I'm not unhappy with the GT86 by any stretch, but the TD kit seems to genuinely improve it without altering its character too much, and offers great bang for the buck. In that case I'd be looking to keep it for many years to come.Tuning Developments package at £1.5k looks pretty good value to me ?
I have done this with the new MX5 and the results are fantastic ... far exceeded my expectations in terms of engine performance and character, albeit i think BBR had a slightly better canvas to work with given Mazdas' investment in the NA route to power and torque.
Good luck and let us know how you get on !!
The other option is using Man Maths to justify a used Evora S...
em177 said:
RemarkLima said:
Me too, I was really looking forward to it... Perhaps went in with high expectations, maybe I've grown up(!).
I think it felt like if I were to have £15k sat on the driveway, only being used on occasion it just wasn't special enough. If I had a driven commute then maybe, but sadly the 3 series is a decent enough steer, whilst fitting in kids and associated carp(sic) that the difference wasn't great enough.
I'll go try a leggy 996, a leggier 997, a Boxster, an Elise and MX5 to be able to see if it's just rose-tinted sunglasses or cars have all just become a bit tame... I hoping it's not the latter
I love mine but I wouldn't recommend it if it wasn't to be used as a daily driver. It simply wouldn't get the nod over a proper weekend car for me (Caterham, Elise etc)I think it felt like if I were to have £15k sat on the driveway, only being used on occasion it just wasn't special enough. If I had a driven commute then maybe, but sadly the 3 series is a decent enough steer, whilst fitting in kids and associated carp(sic) that the difference wasn't great enough.
I'll go try a leggy 996, a leggier 997, a Boxster, an Elise and MX5 to be able to see if it's just rose-tinted sunglasses or cars have all just become a bit tame... I hoping it's not the latter
However it's the well roundedness that means it fills so many of my criteria for a one car garage.
(I have no kids btw!)
I've a 330d e91 as the usual car, manual - which is probably around the same power to weight and drives pretty well with Koni FSD's and non run flat tyres... We then run an i3 for 90% of the other journeys - so without that zing, or something beyond I'd find it hard to justify. As said, I may have to drive some of the competition and just see if it's me
spikyone said:
The other option is using Man Maths to justify a used Evora S...
Now there's something rattling around my brain too!!spikyone said:
I'm in a similar position; when my finance is paid off the Tuning Developments NA kit will be one of the options I consider. I'm not unhappy with the GT86 by any stretch, but the TD kit seems to genuinely improve it without altering its character too much, and offers great bang for the buck. In that case I'd be looking to keep it for many years to come.
The other option is using Man Maths to justify a used Evora S...
I have never driven a modified gt86 but i have read that it does response very well for modding. Changing exhaust manifold and proper tune gives quite a lot more power and it seems that owners are very happy about outcome. Definitely good bang for the buck. The other option is using Man Maths to justify a used Evora S...
I have changed ecu and cat back in my own n/a car and there is quite nice improvements vs stock car. So i can recommend this kind of light tuning for n/a engine.
A very enjoyable videoblog Dan, thank you.
I've watched it twice now and there's one thing not been mentioned yet. The first time I "watched" it, I was in work, so actually just listened to the audio track, Dan's voice!
Without even seeing the actual video, you can tell that he's having fun. On the road, at sensible road speeds as well as at Blyton. That's something that I feel is a particularly pertinent point in this instance.
Now for full disclosure, I took delivery of an MY2017 GT86 Pro last week, so I am not entirely unbiased in my comments from now, but I did take out more than enough of the "competition" in making the decision. I chose it for a few reasons.
I loved my Celica T-Sport (190bhp) that I sold to buy the GT86. I still maintain that was the one comparison that the auto press missed when the 86 was released. Within 10bhp, 15lb/ft on torque and the same weight. It also only really did much from 6k+ when the car hit Lift. Something that has improved my driving no end because the driver actually has to work and plan to overtake, that's rewarding!
I was lucky enough to spend about 2000 miles driving various GT86's over the last 3 years, including some of the heritage liveried cars whilst filming Toyota's recent #Drive film (Shameless link, I'm in the Castrol
! https://youtu.be/DEXccYb1Dfo ), so I knew I could & wanted to live with it and just how well some small modifications are taken by the car. As a side point on that Tada-san himself has always said that the car that leaves the factory is the base for the owner to make it their own, so shove a turbo on it if you want more poke! Last year he spent 4 hours pawing over the cars of the GT86/BRZ Drivers Club to see and understand what people do and why, but not to pander to the "moar powarrrrz" crowd.
But the biggest thing was that it's fun at legal speeds on the road!
Yes, for £3k less, I could have had an ND MX-5. Actually surprisingly similar dynamically, in that it isn't afraid to yaw, pivot and have a little wiggle around it's gearstick even with all the driver aids on. It was playful in a friendly way and yes, as stock there's no mid range torque dip and it sounds nicely rorty. But it's nowhere near as practical as the 86 and after a few hours in it, I was bored of my head rubbing the roof (anyone who says live with it, is a moron when you're spending £20k+).
Yes, for the same as the 86, you could buy a year old M135/235i (I was offered a brand spanker for £28k by my local dealer). Yes, that engine is fantastic, but it's chassis was really uninvolving at anywhere near normal, legal (ish) road speeds. I also raise a great challenge to those who say the interior of the 86 is crap too, go and rub around the dash, transmission tunnel and door cards of a 1 or 2 Series and you'll find the same if not worse quality plastics in there, despite being a "premium" product.
I found the Golf GTi in any ways similar to the BMW's, by no means a bad car and certainly rapid, but a GTi with the Performance Pack (or the ClubSport with the rear seats) was just so effortless to lose your license.
The TL: DR version, yup, it's still got "only" 200bhp. Yup, it's still slower than most modern hot hatches, but it's also a lot more involving. IF the base car isn't enough, there's a massive tuning industry in the UK to let you have it your way.
I've watched it twice now and there's one thing not been mentioned yet. The first time I "watched" it, I was in work, so actually just listened to the audio track, Dan's voice!
Without even seeing the actual video, you can tell that he's having fun. On the road, at sensible road speeds as well as at Blyton. That's something that I feel is a particularly pertinent point in this instance.
Now for full disclosure, I took delivery of an MY2017 GT86 Pro last week, so I am not entirely unbiased in my comments from now, but I did take out more than enough of the "competition" in making the decision. I chose it for a few reasons.
I loved my Celica T-Sport (190bhp) that I sold to buy the GT86. I still maintain that was the one comparison that the auto press missed when the 86 was released. Within 10bhp, 15lb/ft on torque and the same weight. It also only really did much from 6k+ when the car hit Lift. Something that has improved my driving no end because the driver actually has to work and plan to overtake, that's rewarding!
I was lucky enough to spend about 2000 miles driving various GT86's over the last 3 years, including some of the heritage liveried cars whilst filming Toyota's recent #Drive film (Shameless link, I'm in the Castrol
! https://youtu.be/DEXccYb1Dfo ), so I knew I could & wanted to live with it and just how well some small modifications are taken by the car. As a side point on that Tada-san himself has always said that the car that leaves the factory is the base for the owner to make it their own, so shove a turbo on it if you want more poke! Last year he spent 4 hours pawing over the cars of the GT86/BRZ Drivers Club to see and understand what people do and why, but not to pander to the "moar powarrrrz" crowd.But the biggest thing was that it's fun at legal speeds on the road!
Yes, for £3k less, I could have had an ND MX-5. Actually surprisingly similar dynamically, in that it isn't afraid to yaw, pivot and have a little wiggle around it's gearstick even with all the driver aids on. It was playful in a friendly way and yes, as stock there's no mid range torque dip and it sounds nicely rorty. But it's nowhere near as practical as the 86 and after a few hours in it, I was bored of my head rubbing the roof (anyone who says live with it, is a moron when you're spending £20k+).
Yes, for the same as the 86, you could buy a year old M135/235i (I was offered a brand spanker for £28k by my local dealer). Yes, that engine is fantastic, but it's chassis was really uninvolving at anywhere near normal, legal (ish) road speeds. I also raise a great challenge to those who say the interior of the 86 is crap too, go and rub around the dash, transmission tunnel and door cards of a 1 or 2 Series and you'll find the same if not worse quality plastics in there, despite being a "premium" product.
I found the Golf GTi in any ways similar to the BMW's, by no means a bad car and certainly rapid, but a GTi with the Performance Pack (or the ClubSport with the rear seats) was just so effortless to lose your license.
The TL: DR version, yup, it's still got "only" 200bhp. Yup, it's still slower than most modern hot hatches, but it's also a lot more involving. IF the base car isn't enough, there's a massive tuning industry in the UK to let you have it your way.
BristolLee said:
A very enjoyable videoblog Dan, thank you.
But the biggest thing was that it's fun at legal speeds on the road!
Yes, for £3k less, I could have had an ND MX-5. Actually surprisingly similar dynamically, in that it isn't afraid to yaw, pivot and have a little wiggle around it's gearstick even with all the driver aids on. It was playful in a friendly way and yes, as stock there's no mid range torque dip and it sounds nicely rorty. But it's nowhere near as practical as the 86 and after a few hours in it, I was bored of my head rubbing the roof (anyone who says live with it, is a moron when you're spending £20k+).
Yes, for the same as the 86, you could buy a year old M135/235i (I was offered a brand spanker for £28k by my local dealer). Yes, that engine is fantastic, but it's chassis was really uninvolving at anywhere near normal, legal (ish) road speeds. I also raise a great challenge to those who say the interior of the 86 is crap too, go and rub around the dash, transmission tunnel and door cards of a 1 or 2 Series and you'll find the same if not worse quality plastics in there, despite being a "premium" product.
I found the Golf GTi in any ways similar to the BMW's, by no means a bad car and certainly rapid, but a GTi with the Performance Pack (or the ClubSport with the rear seats) was just so effortless to lose your license.
The TL: DR version, yup, it's still got "only" 200bhp. Yup, it's still slower than most modern hot hatches, but it's also a lot more involving. IF the base car isn't enough, there's a massive tuning industry in the UK to let you have it your way.
Concur with all that, very well summed up We plumped for the ND MX5 as it was a '2nd car' & we wanted a soft top - much of the other reasoning was exactly as you describe though !!But the biggest thing was that it's fun at legal speeds on the road!
Yes, for £3k less, I could have had an ND MX-5. Actually surprisingly similar dynamically, in that it isn't afraid to yaw, pivot and have a little wiggle around it's gearstick even with all the driver aids on. It was playful in a friendly way and yes, as stock there's no mid range torque dip and it sounds nicely rorty. But it's nowhere near as practical as the 86 and after a few hours in it, I was bored of my head rubbing the roof (anyone who says live with it, is a moron when you're spending £20k+).
Yes, for the same as the 86, you could buy a year old M135/235i (I was offered a brand spanker for £28k by my local dealer). Yes, that engine is fantastic, but it's chassis was really uninvolving at anywhere near normal, legal (ish) road speeds. I also raise a great challenge to those who say the interior of the 86 is crap too, go and rub around the dash, transmission tunnel and door cards of a 1 or 2 Series and you'll find the same if not worse quality plastics in there, despite being a "premium" product.
I found the Golf GTi in any ways similar to the BMW's, by no means a bad car and certainly rapid, but a GTi with the Performance Pack (or the ClubSport with the rear seats) was just so effortless to lose your license.
The TL: DR version, yup, it's still got "only" 200bhp. Yup, it's still slower than most modern hot hatches, but it's also a lot more involving. IF the base car isn't enough, there's a massive tuning industry in the UK to let you have it your way.
GT86 is definitely the sharper drive of the two IMHO but the Mazda has the better engine, and in BBR tune quite strikingly so.
Adopting the "fun at legal (ish) speeds on the road" approach with the ND has really made me question my more daily drive, a Megane 275 Trophy. On the right road and at the right time it is jaw dropping; characterful and huge fun, I absolutely love it ... BUT I suspect the 86 may be more fun more of the time than the Trophy.
For me though I think I'd have to tweak the power delivery in efforts to fill the flat spot and inject a tad more character ?
Enjoy the new car, I think the face lift is subtle but a nice improvement.
Simon Owen said:
Concur with all that, very well summed up We plumped for the ND MX5 as it was a '2nd car' & we wanted a soft top - much of the other reasoning was exactly as you describe though !!
GT86 is definitely the sharper drive of the two IMHO but the Mazda has the better engine, and in BBR tune quite strikingly so.
Adopting the "fun at legal (ish) speeds on the road" approach with the ND has really made me question my more daily drive, a Megane 275 Trophy. On the right road and at the right time it is jaw dropping; characterful and huge fun, I absolutely love it ... BUT I suspect the 86 may be more fun more of the time than the Trophy.
For me though I think I'd have to tweak the power delivery in efforts to fill the flat spot and inject a tad more character ?
Enjoy the new car, I think the face lift is subtle but a nice improvement.
I went from a an 2011 RS250 Cup to a 2014 BRZ to a 2017 MX5 RF. all great cars in their own way. The Megane was ridiculously quick on a tight 2nd gear road....I ran away from a well driven Boxster S on such a road. Massively competent cars that make a completely hamfisted driver look good whilst entertaining a good driver. But there's a completely different type of enjoyment...on the same sort of roads...to be had from the BRZ and the MX5. Neither of them could stay with the Megane. It would run away and hide. But form a "pure enjoyment" perspective, I have just as much fun in the BRZ and the MX5. The difference is that I've got a much bigger margin for error, and my licence is in half the jeopardy than it would be in the Megane. Plus, the BRZ cost half as much to run in terms of fuel and tyres (especially!!!). The Megane is a brilliant car.....but i have never regretted going small, light, slow, RWD.. GT86 is definitely the sharper drive of the two IMHO but the Mazda has the better engine, and in BBR tune quite strikingly so.
Adopting the "fun at legal (ish) speeds on the road" approach with the ND has really made me question my more daily drive, a Megane 275 Trophy. On the right road and at the right time it is jaw dropping; characterful and huge fun, I absolutely love it ... BUT I suspect the 86 may be more fun more of the time than the Trophy.
For me though I think I'd have to tweak the power delivery in efforts to fill the flat spot and inject a tad more character ?
Enjoy the new car, I think the face lift is subtle but a nice improvement.
Simon Owen said:
Concur with all that, very well summed up We plumped for the ND MX5 as it was a '2nd car' & we wanted a soft top - much of the other reasoning was exactly as you describe though !!
GT86 is definitely the sharper drive of the two IMHO but the Mazda has the better engine, and in BBR tune quite strikingly so.
Adopting the "fun at legal (ish) speeds on the road" approach with the ND has really made me question my more daily drive, a Megane 275 Trophy. On the right road and at the right time it is jaw dropping; characterful and huge fun, I absolutely love it ... BUT I suspect the 86 may be more fun more of the time than the Trophy.
For me though I think I'd have to tweak the power delivery in efforts to fill the flat spot and inject a tad more character ?
Enjoy the new car, I think the face lift is subtle but a nice improvement.
Thanks Simon! GT86 is definitely the sharper drive of the two IMHO but the Mazda has the better engine, and in BBR tune quite strikingly so.
Adopting the "fun at legal (ish) speeds on the road" approach with the ND has really made me question my more daily drive, a Megane 275 Trophy. On the right road and at the right time it is jaw dropping; characterful and huge fun, I absolutely love it ... BUT I suspect the 86 may be more fun more of the time than the Trophy.
For me though I think I'd have to tweak the power delivery in efforts to fill the flat spot and inject a tad more character ?
Enjoy the new car, I think the face lift is subtle but a nice improvement.
I figured I may as well justify it after telling you all that I'd bought one!
RBH makes a valid point about consumables too. From being part of the GT86/BRZ Drivers Club, the stock Primacy tyres can often go for up to 20k miles, even including the odd bit of track use. Brake pads and discs aren't dissimilar in terms of wear either.
There's plenty of options for replacing them too, so if you want to set the car for fast road, you can. Track, even easier, but it doesn't have to break the bank.
Most people who bang on about it needing more power either haven't driven one, have come from something much quicker and expect miracles OR (at a push, considering the hype at launch), drove a car that hadn't really run in on the test drive.
This last point really is a big one. Having driven 6 or 7 examples with between 11 miles (mine) and 13,000 miles (The Castrol); the difference is marked. Even a 2500 mile car can still feel tight depending on how it's been run in, but they do loosen up massively with good use.
£600-1000 is all that's needed to eliminate that pesky torque dip and give the car that "20-30bhp more" that the keyboard warriors think it needs. An ECUtec remap, a panel filter and a slightly better flowing exhaust from someone like Fensport, Tunig Development, Litchfield or Abbey will solve it and make it more individual to your tastes. People just enjoy slagging stuff off rather than researching
BristolLee said:
£600-1000 is all that's needed to eliminate that pesky torque dip and give the car that "20-30bhp more" that the keyboard warriors think it needs. An ECUtec remap, a panel filter and a slightly better flowing exhaust from someone like Fensport, Tunig Development, Litchfield or Abbey will solve it and make it more individual to your tastes. People just enjoy slagging stuff off rather than researching
I've just checked and the Litchfield performance pack is £1,882 for +25bhp, so quite a bit higher than £600-£1000. Then after that you have to replace the hideous standard wheels and plastic tyres, so that's another £1000. And you're still left with the far too high oem springs, lexus rear lights that went out of fashion 20 years ago and crappy rear spoiler.I actually really like the GT86/BRZ concept, but there is just too much to fix and rectify even excluding the engine.
gashead1105 said:
I get that! It's a good review otherwise and I for one would like to own one. Think it would be a great daily to complement my Exige.
I have been driving a '15 GT86 as a daily complement to my Elise SC for 7 months now.It's just perfect for daily driving - obviously for a track day or a blast the Elise is more involving, but it's too compromised for daily use in the long run (it has been my previous daily for 9 years!) especially the cabin's too small.
Edited by edo111s on Thursday 13th April 01:07
edo111s said:
I have been driving a '15 GT86 as a daily complement to my Elise SC for 7 months now.
It's just perfect for daily driving - obviously for a track day or a blast the Elise is more involving, but it's too compromised for daily use in the long run (it has been my previous daily for 9 years!) especially the cabin's too small.
i think the 86 is very Elise-like, which is why they get a good report on seloc. It's just perfect for daily driving - obviously for a track day or a blast the Elise is more involving, but it's too compromised for daily use in the long run (it has been my previous daily for 9 years!) especially the cabin's too small.
Edited by edo111s on Thursday 13th April 01:07
It's sweet spot is for those people whose daily duties aren't too onerous, shorter trips on b roads suit it well. Otherwise it's not enough for big commuters and not raw enough for a w/end car.
Good that we have choice. There are plenty of hot hatches that make commuting fun, but that's just one limited hammer to crack nut.
re33 said:
I think the power is fine, it is the lack of RPM and terrible noise that let the GT86 down. I know emissions regulations have a big part to play but this engine is much worse than Honda's F20 released in 1999 and I would argue not even as good as the original AE86 twincam engine which had a lot less weight to pull around.
S2000 (1999) F20 2L Power 237BHP, MAX RPM 8800/9000 (soft and hard cut)
AE86 (1983) 4AGE 1.6L Power 128BHP, MAX RPM 7500
GT86 Power 197BHP, MAX RPM 7400
I still like the car though I just feel like it could have been really good and engine lets it down. Think I'll just have to buy a hardtop for S2000...
it was a terrible antique engine to useS2000 (1999) F20 2L Power 237BHP, MAX RPM 8800/9000 (soft and hard cut)
AE86 (1983) 4AGE 1.6L Power 128BHP, MAX RPM 7500
GT86 Power 197BHP, MAX RPM 7400
I still like the car though I just feel like it could have been really good and engine lets it down. Think I'll just have to buy a hardtop for S2000...
Edited by re33 on Thursday 6th April 12:50
i would have jumped at one if it had a 9k revving 3pot with lashings of 'fiz'
gashead1105 said:
Does anyone have a GT86 and use it even semi regularly to transport small children? I have a three year old and a five year old and it looks like they wouldn't have any room to put their feet, particularly if my wife is in the front seat.
I use mine everyday to transport my 5 yr old son and near 2 year old daughter. It's our second car but as my wife doesn't like driving and i collect kids from nursery/school so its used regularly for this purpose. Sure it's a bit of a squeeze and only short trips but works ok. mikey P 500 said:
I use mine everyday to transport my 5 yr old son and near 2 year old daughter. It's our second car but as my wife doesn't like driving and i collect kids from nursery/school so its used regularly for this purpose. Sure it's a bit of a squeeze and only short trips but works ok.
Thanks. Do you have specific car seats to fit? I tried my son's group 1/2 in one last year and it just didn't fit, but he has just changed to a group 2/3 that uses the normal seatbelt. It would only be used for short trips in all likelihood, my wife has a big estate and has just got a dog so am even less likely to be taking my car on weekend outings now! I presume that you usually take the other car if you have a family outing? Re seats my daughter is in a group 1 britex seat with isofix and top teather, it's quite large unfortunately reducing space further, but does fit well. My son uses a halfords one that just uses regular seatbelts and is far smaller not taking up much space. Yes we use our main car a Mercedes for all family trips (unless it's a pistonheads Sunday service or similar when we all fit in the gt86). I think you can make work ok for a second car used on short trips with kids, but wouldn't want it as your only/main car as it's fairly small (it's not really any worse though than many small hatch backs like C1 or a picanto which friends have and put children in the back).
Would be replacing my Fiesta ST, which I adore but I am wanting something RWD next and I don't have the money spare for an Evora! The good thing about the Fiesta is that (pre dog at least) there is enough room in the back for the kids to be fine for an hour or so journey. I think the GT86 is smaller than that. Guess I really need to take my local dealer up on the day long test he offered.
Photos that i've seen show that the GT86 has a fair bit more room than a 911 in the back (which seems to have a tad more room than an Evora). Loads of people use 911 rear seats for young kids, the GT86 shouldn't be a problem unless both front passengers are tall and/or aren't willing to sit a bit further forward to accommodate the kids.
Given the very high window line of a Fiesta I expect the little ones won't find a GT86 much different/worse.
Given the very high window line of a Fiesta I expect the little ones won't find a GT86 much different/worse.
I've had my 7 year old in the back for several hours at a time without complaints beyond "Are we nearly there yet?". And smaller ones are supposed to be put in rear facing child seats where they get no leg room at all!
You wouldn't take four adults camping in it, but small children aren't an issue.
You wouldn't take four adults camping in it, but small children aren't an issue.
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