RE: Subaru BRZ: You Know You Want To
Discussion
Owning a standard GT86 myself I completely agree with the poster above discussing the Elise/Exige comparison. I love mine as it is, and then I have days where a little more pace and grip could be fun too. Its a compromise same as anything, and it's ready to accept a multitude of tyre/wheel combinations to suit.
The GT86 is, as standard, quick enough for most things. Yes, in a dual carriageway drag race with a current '30/35d or equivalent exec car you're going to lose, and badly - that's just not what it's about.
The 0-60 time may not look like much but I assure you - on a little b road, blasting through second, third and into fourth gear out of tight bends it feels plenty fast enough, and the gearbox really is very sweet to use.
Never got the real disliking for the noise either - despite the boxer motor it doesn't sound like an Impreza, no, but there is plenty of interesting induction noises going on in the cabin under acceleration.
It's a car that, now for £15k, will make you smile at least once a journey, and I love it for that.
The GT86 is, as standard, quick enough for most things. Yes, in a dual carriageway drag race with a current '30/35d or equivalent exec car you're going to lose, and badly - that's just not what it's about.
The 0-60 time may not look like much but I assure you - on a little b road, blasting through second, third and into fourth gear out of tight bends it feels plenty fast enough, and the gearbox really is very sweet to use.
Never got the real disliking for the noise either - despite the boxer motor it doesn't sound like an Impreza, no, but there is plenty of interesting induction noises going on in the cabin under acceleration.
It's a car that, now for £15k, will make you smile at least once a journey, and I love it for that.
P-Jay said:
The way I see it, if you wanted a louder, faster, gripper Japanese coupe you could buy a 350z or 370z for years, they pretty much represent what most anti-GT/BRZ posters want – “300bhp+, more grip” ironically that was the car they really struggled to sell.
GT86: 1270 kg, 197hp370Z: 1570 kg, 340hp
This BRZ: ~1300kg, 280hp
It's totally simple. Lightweight is good. Lightweight and powerful is better.
Of course there are other considerations, else we'd all be driving Minis, but when comparing FR sports coupes with similar accommodation, a 300kg gap is huge.
With the extra power, this car would be an entertaining front-engined alternative to a used 987 Cayman at similar money. And sure, most would have the Porsche, but a credible off-beat alternative is something to cheer IMO.
People saying this car wasn't meant to be modified. This car that the Japanese sold with steel wheels for you to put your preferred alloys on, this car that was designed to fit 4 wheels and tyres in the rear for drift/track days and this car which has a huge dedicated section in Autobacs stores.
A 200bhp one is too slow, a 300bhp one is missing the point? Horses for courses maybe...
A 200bhp one is too slow, a 300bhp one is missing the point? Horses for courses maybe...
It's a lot of lolly-pop for a car that doesn't have the tuned credibility of the likes of the Nissan (Skyline) GT-R etc..
I'd probably want a good £5k off of that.
What stands out more is yet another BRZ/GT86 thread which talks about the power 'issues' of the standard car in the start of the article... Unfortunately it's a title that the standard car now virtually wears as a tattoo.
I'd probably want a good £5k off of that.
What stands out more is yet another BRZ/GT86 thread which talks about the power 'issues' of the standard car in the start of the article... Unfortunately it's a title that the standard car now virtually wears as a tattoo.
jason61c said:
Ahbefive said:
Jonmx said:
A 5 year old modified car for £20k. No thanks.
You wouldn't buy a modified Ferrari F40 for £20k then by that logic?bicycleshorts said:
People saying this car wasn't meant to be modified. This car that the Japanese sold with steel wheels for you to put your preferred alloys on
Not just that, the steel wheel variant didn't have colour-coded bumpers - they knew people would be replacing them instantly with their own choice of bumpers or destroying them skimming along walls.Had mine for sale for almost half a year. Asked approx. £2k more than a bone stock item, parts alone were £6k+. No supercharger, but approx 60Nm more torque where the dip was, all good proven mods and a good looker as confirmed by comments (quite similar to this one - see my garage). Very few new buyers seem to have the knowledge to differentiate a ricer from a properly modded item, and as nobody could appreciate my offer, I decided to keep it.
I'm fresh from an unexpected demo drive of the new (MY17?) BRZ, while my STi was visiting the main dealer for a few minutes' work, and I was sat in sales area, making use of the coffee machine, and oohing and ahhing over their new arrival. I love the idea of a BRZ, but have never even sat in one until now. "I'd love a go in one", I said. The nice man handed me the key and said, "Off you go then!". I felt genuinely giddy with excitement! Like a kid at Christmas. I haven't been so goosebumpy over a car moment for years!
The handling is, of course, fantastic. I don't think anyone would disagree. The gearshift is indeed excellent, very "STi", which is a massive compliment in my book. The interior is great, except for perhaps the dials and screen which could be simplified for clarity instead of being so PlayStationy. The seats are brilliant. The looks are fabulous. The boot is usable for weekends away. It just keeps ticking boxes...
The engine though... oh dear. What the blithering feck? Is it on? Is it broken? Is there a sport button I'm missing somewhere? Surely it's not meant to be like that?
I don't even think it's a lack of power per se. I can think of plenty engines with less than 200bhp which are far more exciting than this lump. Like, all of them! It's sooooo dull it almost defies belief that it was signed off.
"Quick, isn't it?" said the salesman on my return, with £ signs in his eyes. I can only presume he spends a lot of time selling XVs and not much time selling NotImprezas. "Errr, no. No, it's not. Is my STi ready yet?"
So, do I like the idea of 280bhp in a BRZ? Yes, yes I do. I'm no stranger to modified cars, and aftermarket stuff is fine with me. But 280bhp still won't make this a fast car. The advert says 5.9s to 60 estimated. So why bother spending thousands for a car which still can't keep up with a 330d? Why not leave it alone and enjoy the handling? Because that engine is a deal breaker. Again, it's not the power... it's the delivery. There's no torque anywhere. There's no responsiveness. There's no crescendo of excitement towards the red line. There's no indication at all that it's not f*cked except for a slowly increasing number on the dashboard.
Appetite for revs? I don't agree. It doesn't so much make you want to rev it out like a hot hatch with hot cams, as forces you wring its neck like a gutless Micra. I resented driving it so hard for seemingly so little in return.
What would be required to get 350 or 400bhp, which would make this car REALLY interesting? Probably a turbo, and that would ruin the handling.
Do I want one, either standard or modified? I honestly don't know. I left the showroom bemused and confused, and I really don't understand the car at all.
The handling is, of course, fantastic. I don't think anyone would disagree. The gearshift is indeed excellent, very "STi", which is a massive compliment in my book. The interior is great, except for perhaps the dials and screen which could be simplified for clarity instead of being so PlayStationy. The seats are brilliant. The looks are fabulous. The boot is usable for weekends away. It just keeps ticking boxes...
The engine though... oh dear. What the blithering feck? Is it on? Is it broken? Is there a sport button I'm missing somewhere? Surely it's not meant to be like that?
I don't even think it's a lack of power per se. I can think of plenty engines with less than 200bhp which are far more exciting than this lump. Like, all of them! It's sooooo dull it almost defies belief that it was signed off.
"Quick, isn't it?" said the salesman on my return, with £ signs in his eyes. I can only presume he spends a lot of time selling XVs and not much time selling NotImprezas. "Errr, no. No, it's not. Is my STi ready yet?"
So, do I like the idea of 280bhp in a BRZ? Yes, yes I do. I'm no stranger to modified cars, and aftermarket stuff is fine with me. But 280bhp still won't make this a fast car. The advert says 5.9s to 60 estimated. So why bother spending thousands for a car which still can't keep up with a 330d? Why not leave it alone and enjoy the handling? Because that engine is a deal breaker. Again, it's not the power... it's the delivery. There's no torque anywhere. There's no responsiveness. There's no crescendo of excitement towards the red line. There's no indication at all that it's not f*cked except for a slowly increasing number on the dashboard.
Appetite for revs? I don't agree. It doesn't so much make you want to rev it out like a hot hatch with hot cams, as forces you wring its neck like a gutless Micra. I resented driving it so hard for seemingly so little in return.
What would be required to get 350 or 400bhp, which would make this car REALLY interesting? Probably a turbo, and that would ruin the handling.
Do I want one, either standard or modified? I honestly don't know. I left the showroom bemused and confused, and I really don't understand the car at all.
Gatsods said:
Owning a standard GT86 myself I completely agree with the poster above discussing the Elise/Exige comparison. I love mine as it is, and then I have days where a little more pace and grip could be fun too. Its a compromise same as anything, and it's ready to accept a multitude of tyre/wheel combinations to suit.
The GT86 is, as standard, quick enough for most things. Yes, in a dual carriageway drag race with a current '30/35d or equivalent exec car you're going to lose, and badly - that's just not what it's about.
The 0-60 time may not look like much but I assure you - on a little b road, blasting through second, third and into fourth gear out of tight bends it feels plenty fast enough, and the gearbox really is very sweet to use.
Never got the real disliking for the noise either - despite the boxer motor it doesn't sound like an Impreza, no, but there is plenty of interesting induction noises going on in the cabin under acceleration.
It's a car that, now for £15k, will make you smile at least once a journey, and I love it for that.
I'm also a happy GT86 owner. The negativity towards the 86/BRZ is starting to p!ss me off.The GT86 is, as standard, quick enough for most things. Yes, in a dual carriageway drag race with a current '30/35d or equivalent exec car you're going to lose, and badly - that's just not what it's about.
The 0-60 time may not look like much but I assure you - on a little b road, blasting through second, third and into fourth gear out of tight bends it feels plenty fast enough, and the gearbox really is very sweet to use.
Never got the real disliking for the noise either - despite the boxer motor it doesn't sound like an Impreza, no, but there is plenty of interesting induction noises going on in the cabin under acceleration.
It's a car that, now for £15k, will make you smile at least once a journey, and I love it for that.
I don't care if its not as quick as a 330d. If you think it lacks power, then buy one and modify it or one like above that's had all the work done for you.
If that doesn't suit you then you can follow the rest of the sheep and buy a 330d.....and stop whingeing about the power output for the standard 86/BRZ.
I agree, you don't NEED all the performance of a 330d, but I think it's missing the point, and it's why I say I don't think it's a lack of power that ruins the 86/BRZ.
The point being that technology has moved on. 30 years ago turbo cars were crazy and uncontrollable, and normally aspirated cars could either rev high or idle smoothly, but not both. Now, even a dull repmobile diesel or a family hatchback ecoboost has an unobtrusive turbo, torque in spades over entire rev ranges, and performance that would seem like witchcraft to somebody transported here from the 80s.
And Toyobaru turn out the FA20D, and it's just.... not good enough. If the 86/BRZ revved out like a 2ZZ with 190bhp and a 8000rpm red line there would be a queue at the showroom door. It's not a lack of power or performance; it's a miserable engine, and has no place in a sports car.
OK, so a 2ZZ wouldn't fit, and would bugger up the handling, and the whole point of the car is the flat-4 packaging, but the point is that it is entirely possible to build small displacement, normally aspirated engines with exciting characteristics, bombproof reliability and low costs. Toyota are masters of it. The FA20D, with Subaru's flat-4 knowledge and history, and Toyota's VVTi revvyness, could have been a masterpiece. It failed miserably in my opinion.
I will definitely be keeping an eye on what the tuners are doing with these. I'd love to see what can be done to a normally aspirated one with some headwork, different cams, induction/exhaust mods, unequal length headers (I know, but a Subaru needs to sound like a Subaru), lightened flywheel, and a remap. I don't think bolting on a supercharger is the answer for this engine, although I haven't tried one. A very low pressure turbo would be interesting, but as we all suspect, would probably kill throttle response. But as the throttle doesn't seem to do anything anyway except on a wet roundabout, I'm not so sure what the problem with that would be...
EDIT: Got the engine name wrong. Corrected now.
The point being that technology has moved on. 30 years ago turbo cars were crazy and uncontrollable, and normally aspirated cars could either rev high or idle smoothly, but not both. Now, even a dull repmobile diesel or a family hatchback ecoboost has an unobtrusive turbo, torque in spades over entire rev ranges, and performance that would seem like witchcraft to somebody transported here from the 80s.
And Toyobaru turn out the FA20D, and it's just.... not good enough. If the 86/BRZ revved out like a 2ZZ with 190bhp and a 8000rpm red line there would be a queue at the showroom door. It's not a lack of power or performance; it's a miserable engine, and has no place in a sports car.
OK, so a 2ZZ wouldn't fit, and would bugger up the handling, and the whole point of the car is the flat-4 packaging, but the point is that it is entirely possible to build small displacement, normally aspirated engines with exciting characteristics, bombproof reliability and low costs. Toyota are masters of it. The FA20D, with Subaru's flat-4 knowledge and history, and Toyota's VVTi revvyness, could have been a masterpiece. It failed miserably in my opinion.
I will definitely be keeping an eye on what the tuners are doing with these. I'd love to see what can be done to a normally aspirated one with some headwork, different cams, induction/exhaust mods, unequal length headers (I know, but a Subaru needs to sound like a Subaru), lightened flywheel, and a remap. I don't think bolting on a supercharger is the answer for this engine, although I haven't tried one. A very low pressure turbo would be interesting, but as we all suspect, would probably kill throttle response. But as the throttle doesn't seem to do anything anyway except on a wet roundabout, I'm not so sure what the problem with that would be...
EDIT: Got the engine name wrong. Corrected now.
Edited by TartanPaint on Tuesday 18th April 09:15
Onehp said:
Had mine for sale for almost half a year. Asked approx. £2k more than a bone stock item, parts alone were £6k+. No supercharger, but approx 60Nm more torque where the dip was, all good proven mods and a good looker as confirmed by comments (quite similar to this one - see my garage). Very few new buyers seem to have the knowledge to differentiate a ricer from a properly modded item, and as nobody could appreciate my offer, I decided to keep it.
EL manifold, exhaust and remap?I've had mine for 18 months and I really don't get all the hate for the engine, I agree it's not perfect, but it's a decent block that responds very well to modifications. The factory map and manifold must be there to pass emissions regs, causing the flat spot which is a bit of a nuisance I admit, however from 4,000rpm it goes well and to me sounds good. I will admit I had a couple of years running diesels so perhaps I don't have the best basis for comparison.
From my experience this engine does need running in though, mine has loosend up massively and now revs freely right to the buzzer without hesitation, however when new it felt harsh and reluctant to rev. Perhaps people testing new cars are experiencing this?
From my experience this engine does need running in though, mine has loosend up massively and now revs freely right to the buzzer without hesitation, however when new it felt harsh and reluctant to rev. Perhaps people testing new cars are experiencing this?
philwhite said:
I've had mine for 18 months and I really don't get all the hate for the engine, I agree it's not perfect, but it's a decent block that responds very well to modifications. The factory map and manifold must be there to pass emissions regs, causing the flat spot which is a bit of a nuisance I admit, however from 4,000rpm it goes well and to me sounds good. I will admit I had a couple of years running diesels so perhaps I don't have the best basis for comparison.
From my experience this engine does need running in though, mine has loosend up massively and now revs freely right to the buzzer without hesitation, however when new it felt harsh and reluctant to rev. Perhaps people testing new cars are experiencing this?
It loosens up certainly, but is still sounds pretty rough. Never was an issue for me, it went well enough for what it was - loved it at the time.From my experience this engine does need running in though, mine has loosend up massively and now revs freely right to the buzzer without hesitation, however when new it felt harsh and reluctant to rev. Perhaps people testing new cars are experiencing this?
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