Trade already marking down diesels

[Sa Calobra]

It's a marmite car, you either get it or don't. In xtr trim it can go down muddy farm tracks too.

I personally see it as the closest 2CV successor.

[p1esk]

J4CKO said:

This isnt news, the motor trade have used any possible reason to devalue your trade in, in the past you could turn up with your diesel and know that the garage more than likely wanted it as they could punt it on at a profit, which is still the case apart from some slight uncertainty, so maybe 20 percent of the reason is actual values softening, the rest is opportunistic, which is absolutely what they are there to do, make money, not sure why people are surprised or even offended when they try to nik your trade in, its like being mauled by a bear and being upset as you thought you were mates.

Diesels arent going anywhere soon but there will be a bit of a direction change, people are perhaps waking up and realising they dont absolutely need a diesel for the average type mileages most of us do, and that perhaps they wont be plunged into poverty by a petrol engined car, especially if they look at the whole life costs and not just headline MPG. Also, and it is unpopular, perhaps we need to look at how cars are used, maybe do a bit more walking and cycling, its easy to offset the MPG difference if you are smart about it.

I've just changed from a Peugeot 406 HDi (after 16 years and 200,000 miles) and now drive a 2003 Lexus GS300, a 3 litre petrol car.

I've now been retired for above 10 years and no longer do a large annual mileage, so I consider the higher fuel consumption of the Lexus to be an acceptable price to pay for the increased quietness and general refinement. It will do above 30 mpg on any decent length journey compared with 50-55 mpg from the Peugeot, and taking everything into account that's OK by me.

[Limpet]

I've just gone petrol after years of diesel. I was only saying to the other half at the weekend that I don't think I'd ever go back unless my mileage were to dramatically increase.

I don't trust, or care about, the various environmental arguments around cars - once you get beyond the inescapable fundamental of burning non-renewable fuels being ultimately unsustainable, the rest is all distorted by government fiscal policy (hence the constant changes), and is really not worth listening to. What I can say is that the petrol experience is so much nicer - smoother, more responsive, quieter, more enjoyable generally.

I'm spending about another £50 a month on fuel. 2 months in, and the novelty hasn't even come close to wearing off.

Diesels have a place, and I have had some diesel cars over the years that I have enjoyed driving, but not as much as I am enjoying petrol power.

[av185]

Sa Calobra said:

Gas guzzling Porsche's will be seen as the past.

[daemon]

p1esk said:

I've just changed from a Peugeot 406 HDi (after 16 years and 200,000 miles) and now drive a 2003 Lexus GS300, a 3 litre petrol car.

I've now been retired for above 10 years and no longer do a large annual mileage, so I consider the higher fuel consumption of the Lexus to be an acceptable price to pay for the increased quietness and general refinement. It will do above 30 mpg on any decent length journey compared with 50-55 mpg from the Peugeot, and taking everything into account that's OK by me.

And thats totally the right decision for your particular circumstances.

[p1esk]

Limpet said:

I don't trust, or care about, the various environmental arguments around cars - once you get beyond the inescapable fundamental of burning non-renewable fuels being ultimately unsustainable, the rest is all distorted by government fiscal policy (hence the constant changes), and is really not worth listening to.

I feel much the same, but what I find particularly objectionable is the way VED (what we used to call road tax) is applied to cars. As I understand it cars are now taxed on the basis of their emissions, but this takes no account of the amount we use our cars, and this seems to me to be a grossly unfair system.

It would be far more equitable to abolish the VED system and adjust the fuel taxes, so that the total tax take is more or less unchanged. Why should somebody who owns a large car pay a lot of tax on it annually, even though they may only cover a small annual mileage, when some owners of small cars may do quite high annual mileages thereby consuming more fuel and producing greater emissions over the course of a year?

[TooMany2cvs]

p1esk said:

VED (what we used to call road tax)

Not since 1937. Damn you, Churchill!

p1esk said:

As I understand it cars are now taxed on the basis of their emissions

Oh, just for the last 16 years... and two years before that with an engine size split at 1550cc.

p1esk said:

but this takes no account of the amount we use our cars, and this seems to me to be a grossly unfair system.

Yes, it does. Fuel duty and VAT on fuel.

p1eskl said:

Why should somebody who owns a large car pay a lot of tax on it annually, even though they may only cover a small annual mileage, when some owners of small cars may do quite high annual mileages thereby consuming more fuel and producing greater emissions over the course of a year?

The person with the high-mileage low-emission car will pay more tax, when you add VED and fuel duty together.

2,000 miles at 20mpg = 100 gallons = 454 litres @ 58p/litre = £263 + 20% VAT = £316 + £535 VED = £851 total
30,000 miles at 60mpg = 500 gallons = 2,270 litres @ 58p/litre = £1,316 + VAT = £1,579 + £0 VED = £1,579 total

Edited by TooMany2cvs on Monday 24th April 19:29

[J4CKO]

p1esk said:

J4CKO said:

This isnt news, the motor trade have used any possible reason to devalue your trade in, in the past you could turn up with your diesel and know that the garage more than likely wanted it as they could punt it on at a profit, which is still the case apart from some slight uncertainty, so maybe 20 percent of the reason is actual values softening, the rest is opportunistic, which is absolutely what they are there to do, make money, not sure why people are surprised or even offended when they try to nik your trade in, its like being mauled by a bear and being upset as you thought you were mates.

Diesels arent going anywhere soon but there will be a bit of a direction change, people are perhaps waking up and realising they dont absolutely need a diesel for the average type mileages most of us do, and that perhaps they wont be plunged into poverty by a petrol engined car, especially if they look at the whole life costs and not just headline MPG. Also, and it is unpopular, perhaps we need to look at how cars are used, maybe do a bit more walking and cycling, its easy to offset the MPG difference if you are smart about it.

I've just changed from a Peugeot 406 HDi (after 16 years and 200,000 miles) and now drive a 2003 Lexus GS300, a 3 litre petrol car.

I've now been retired for above 10 years and no longer do a large annual mileage, so I consider the higher fuel consumption of the Lexus to be an acceptable price to pay for the increased quietness and general refinement. It will do above 30 mpg on any decent length journey compared with 50-55 mpg from the Peugeot, and taking everything into account that's OK by me.

Amen to that, the Pug 406 was always a decent thing to travel in, bit of a minor sensation back in 1996 when it arrived but a V6 Lexus was more than twice the price when new, and there is a cost vs value thing there, the Lexus hopefully and probably wont break, after all its a well made, V6 petrol with nothing that fancy, I am guessing its done its depreciation, a pleasant way to travel.

What amazes me is folk I know who do small mileages buying diesels, and not cheap ones either, 20k plus, to save money ? eh, I suppose compared to 20K on a petrol one it may save a bit but if cost is such a big factor, why spend 20k ?


I offset my gas guzzler like today I cycled the seven miles to work, I will walk into the town centre and even use public transport, just like to use the correct tool for the job, get some exercise and not spend vast amounts on fuel, I consider driving, for myself as a bit of a luxury, appreciate not an option for everyone but I think all drivers should consider how they use their cars and see if there are other options.

[PurpleTurtle]

Euro VI compliant engines get rid of the NOx so any new diesels in future won't pollute like they do now, will be on a par with petrols emissions wise but still offer far superior MPG, so people will still continue to buy them in droves. There will be more to go wrong with them, but people will generally overlook that at point of purchase, just as they have with expensive DPFs, Turbos and Dual Mass Flywheels on modern diesels up to now.

The motor industry is too heavily invested in diesel, so whilst there may in future be a bit of a swing back towards petrols, at the moment it's just blatant dealer profiteering.

[daemon]

PurpleTurtle said:

Euro VI compliant engines get rid of the NOx so any new diesels in future won't pollute like they do now, will be on a par with petrols emissions wise but still offer far superior MPG, so people will still continue to buy them in droves. There will be more to go wrong with them, but people will generally overlook that at point of purchase, just as they have with expensive DPFs, Turbos and Dual Mass Flywheels on modern diesels up to now.

The motor industry is too heavily invested in diesel, so whilst there may in future be a bit of a swing back towards petrols, at the moment it's just blatant dealer profiteering.

The swing has already happened. Where have you been?

I think the motor industry is fully aware that diesel has "peaked", hence why we're seeing much more investment in small turbo boosted petrol engines - which bring their own problems.

[Pickled]

PurpleTurtle said:

Euro VI compliant engines get rid of the NOx so any new diesels in future won't pollute like they do now, will be on a par with petrols emissions wise but still offer far superior MPG, so people will still continue to buy them in droves. There will be more to go wrong with them, but people will generally overlook that at point of purchase, just as they have with expensive DPFs, Turbos and Dual Mass Flywheels on modern diesels up to now.

The motor industry is too heavily invested in diesel, so whilst there may in future be a bit of a swing back towards petrols, at the moment it's just blatant dealer profiteering.

If the majority of users of diesels are company car drivers, cost of repairs are someone else's problem, they just want the flashiest badge for the lowest tax

It's mainly a European phenomenon regarding diesels, mainland Europe has had an obsession with derv for a lot longer (decades?) look how long it took before the (UK) market would accept a diesel in something like a 7 series or S class - yes I accept it was because of the more favourable pricing between diesel and petrol on the continent, yet again fiscal policy dictating the way the market went.
For the rest of the world diesel is still seen as something for commercial vehicles

[TooMany2cvs]

PurpleTurtle said:

Euro VI compliant engines get rid of the NOx so any new diesels in future won't pollute like they do now

Euro VI gives a very low maximum for NOx - on a very specific test pattern, which really doesn't even begin to stress a modern engine. So as soon as you get outside that test pattern, watch those NOx levels rise...

[Sa Calobra]

BOTH diesel and petrol emit Nox. The Euro6 guidelines arent very different at all. Infact petrol is higher on CO..

Outside the test parameters do you think petrol doesn't ramp up just as much too?