RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
3795mpower said:
Auto gearboxes, it's happening, embrace it (they're good) or else buy an '90's
Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
How monumentally wide of the mark is it possible to get?Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
3795mpower said:
Auto gearboxes, it's happening, embrace it (they're good) or else buy an '90's
Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
Just to join on putting the boot into this post, you clearly misunderstood the reason why people like manual gearboxes and why others like autoboxes. Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
janesmith1950 said:
It reads the opposite. The poster clearly understands, and simply disagrees.
He has a point with most of the things he mentions, but the fact that some of them are just daft (why on earth would you want an AM only radio?) implies to me he was completely missing the point and got lucky on some of his examples. 
janesmith1950 said:
Looking at the direction of travel, it does look like the manual gearbox is on its way out as far as mass produced cars go.
I suspect variable speed gearboxes are on the way out full-stop since EVs don't appear to need them. Edited by kambites on Tuesday 2nd May 08:35
janesmith1950 said:
It reads the opposite. The poster clearly understands, and simply disagrees.
Looking at the direction of travel, it does look like the manual gearbox is on its way out as far as mass produced cars go.
I read he thinks people like manual gearboxes because they are old and 'retro' and auto boxes because they are modern and 'progress'. All a bit tongue in cheek really and I readily admit to being a bit facetious. Looking at the direction of travel, it does look like the manual gearbox is on its way out as far as mass produced cars go.
But the comparison is nonsense anyway, neither is old tech fundamentally. Manual boxes are much better for involvement (and thus enjoyment if you like that sort of thing) and autoboxes and now better at shifting quicker and being more efficient.
I know which one I believe fits the M ethos more.
Ordered my new company car 125d - 8 speed Auto. My old car was an 11 year old EP3 Civic Type-R and since i don't need the money and i have the space... its going in a garage for the next 20 years for all i care!
God knows what the roads will be like in 20 years but i would be nice to pull out of the garage... a manual N/A with no driver aids... give over, they don't exist
Martin_Hx said:
Ordered my new company car 125d - 8 speed Auto. My old car was an 11 year old EP3 Civic Type-R and since i don't need the money and i have the space... its going in a garage for the next 20 years for all i care!
God knows what the roads will be like in 20 years but i would be nice to pull out of the garage... a manual N/A with no driver aids... give over, they don't exist
I love the contrast betwen those two cars! God knows what the roads will be like in 20 years but i would be nice to pull out of the garage... a manual N/A with no driver aids... give over, they don't exist
Apart from being a hatchback they will be so different in the way they drive it will make every drive in the civic feel 'special'.Mike335i said:
Just to join on putting the boot into this post, you clearly misunderstood the reason why people like manual gearboxes and why others like autoboxes.
It's more the point that many people seem dismissive of a performance vehicle Being some sort of "real" "drivers" car unless it has three pedals.
For the record I have a very manual 6 cylinder M5 and
An m135i 8-speed auto.
Both do a great job.
Horses for courses.
Sad day but BMW have already excluded me from driving anything newer than about 06 due to the seat to pedal box horizontal offset.
When you have the seat near the front of the adjustment in either the 1 or 3 series the throttle pedal is offset so far right relative to the steering wheel and seat angle that it completely does my knee in on long journeys.
I'm really pissed off because I used to love M cars. Had no problems with any of my previously owned E36, E46, Z4Mc, E39 M cars or my E30 (could almost call me a loyal customer for someone who never liked the brand image) but when I bought my first brand new bmw, the much debated M135i it ruined me. After three months I could barely walk and had to trade for an ugly, dull, safe 4wd Audi :'(
Nothing used to put traction through 2 wheels like an M car but I guess my days of Bmw driving are now 100% over
When you have the seat near the front of the adjustment in either the 1 or 3 series the throttle pedal is offset so far right relative to the steering wheel and seat angle that it completely does my knee in on long journeys.
I'm really pissed off because I used to love M cars. Had no problems with any of my previously owned E36, E46, Z4Mc, E39 M cars or my E30 (could almost call me a loyal customer for someone who never liked the brand image) but when I bought my first brand new bmw, the much debated M135i it ruined me. After three months I could barely walk and had to trade for an ugly, dull, safe 4wd Audi :'(
Nothing used to put traction through 2 wheels like an M car but I guess my days of Bmw driving are now 100% over
Niffty951 said:
Sad day but BMW have already excluded me from driving anything newer than about 06 due to the seat to pedal box horizontal offset.
When you have the seat near the front of the adjustment in either the 1 or 3 series the throttle pedal is offset so far right relative to the steering wheel and seat angle that it completely does my knee in on long journeys.
I'm really pissed off because I used to love M cars. Had no problems with any of my previously owned E36, E46, Z4Mc, E39 M cars or my E30 (could almost call me a loyal customer for someone who never liked the brand image) but when I bought my first brand new bmw, the much debated M135i it ruined me. After three months I could barely walk and had to trade for an ugly, dull, safe 4wd Audi :'(
Nothing used to put traction through 2 wheels like an M car but I guess my days of Bmw driving are now 100% over
Prime reason why I ordered DCT when I bought my E82 135i......When you have the seat near the front of the adjustment in either the 1 or 3 series the throttle pedal is offset so far right relative to the steering wheel and seat angle that it completely does my knee in on long journeys.
I'm really pissed off because I used to love M cars. Had no problems with any of my previously owned E36, E46, Z4Mc, E39 M cars or my E30 (could almost call me a loyal customer for someone who never liked the brand image) but when I bought my first brand new bmw, the much debated M135i it ruined me. After three months I could barely walk and had to trade for an ugly, dull, safe 4wd Audi :'(
Nothing used to put traction through 2 wheels like an M car but I guess my days of Bmw driving are now 100% over
Within 10 mins of test driving a 6MT car, I knew the offset driving position would cripple me within a short time.......plus once test driving a DCT car later on, it was clear the DCT suited the N55 engine much better than the 6MT did anyway.
That's interest, I've never had an issue (I've owned two E36s, one E46, a Z4C and two E90s - all RHD). The pedals seem reasonably spaced and not excessively far apart or close together, and if you include the dead pedal (clutch foot rest), which is where your left foot spends most of its time (so you have to include it), the pedals are lined up dead centre. I have a bad back so am quite sensitive to this sort of thing.
HJMS123 said:
Martin_Hx said:
Ordered my new company car 125d - 8 speed Auto. My old car was an 11 year old EP3 Civic Type-R and since i don't need the money and i have the space... its going in a garage for the next 20 years for all i care!
God knows what the roads will be like in 20 years but i would be nice to pull out of the garage... a manual N/A with no driver aids... give over, they don't exist
I love the contrast betwen those two cars! God knows what the roads will be like in 20 years but i would be nice to pull out of the garage... a manual N/A with no driver aids... give over, they don't exist
Apart from being a hatchback they will be so different in the way they drive it will make every drive in the civic feel 'special'.
aeropilot said:
V8A*ndy said:
Nothing wrong with the 1M's and that's rumored to be an 135i item with some tinkered bits in the syncro.
Yes, BMW (or Getrag) tinkered with the box from the N54 135i, for the 1M, but they also then put the same gearbox in the 135i when they changed over to the N55 engine, so the transmission in the 1M and N55 engined 135i are identical (same part number)BenGB said:
I don't suggest anybody yearns for the manual in an E46 M3. I've got one and it's horrible unless you are driving at 10/10ths when every change is being hammered home. The rest of the time it's notchy and uncooperative.
Surprisingly, I thoroughly enjoyed my M3 with an SMG (sorry not sorry). I actually think it's the better of the two gearboxes on that car.I understand the need for automatics, but I loathe them, even the new ones.
They still feel like you are shifting through mashed potato. DSG (and the older single clutch automated manuals) are more engaging to drive, even if they do not match the interaction of a proper manual.
M division continues to disappoint.
Front bottom said:
RobM77 said:
s m said:
RobM77 said:
I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.
E46 introduced DBW though as you say
I had a manual 2001 330ci, and this issue really showed itself when trying to do quick 3-point-turns. It would get totally confused. The revs would drop to 600rpm, then the anti-stall would kick in, cue rev surge to 1200 rpm, with very late response to your own throttle inputs.
It was quite embarrassing if someone happened to be watching.
Also, to the person enquiringly earlier about which M car people would pay a premium for the manual over the auto - the E46. SMGs (other than the CSL) were alway worth significantly less.
Edited by r1chardb on Wednesday 3rd May 07:24
kambites said:
janesmith1950 said:
It reads the opposite. The poster clearly understands, and simply disagrees.
He has a point with most of the things he mentions, but the fact that some of them are just daft (why on earth would you want an AM only radio?) implies to me he was completely missing the point and got lucky on some of his examples. r1chardb said:
Front bottom said:
RobM77 said:
s m said:
RobM77 said:
I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.
E46 introduced DBW though as you say
I had a manual 2001 330ci, and this issue really showed itself when trying to do quick 3-point-turns. It would get totally confused. The revs would drop to 600rpm, then the anti-stall would kick in, cue rev surge to 1200 rpm, with very late response to your own throttle inputs.
It was quite embarrassing if someone happened to be watching.
A lot of people seem to have had one on their E46 M3 though....and have then removed it
http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=393...
If the manual 'box can't handle more than 450bhp, keep the car at 450bhp and lose 200kg of weight. Job done. Or make a stronger 'box. Thought this was the M Division?
Auto only M3! Whatever next. Bet this is becasue the bloke from Audi moved to BMW, that and the fact that most M buyers now buy flappy paddles...
Not happy, glad I've got one of the last manual M cars then.
Auto only M3! Whatever next. Bet this is becasue the bloke from Audi moved to BMW, that and the fact that most M buyers now buy flappy paddles...
Not happy, glad I've got one of the last manual M cars then.
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