RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
Ares said:
But we're talking DSG/PDK etc....you still shift the gear, you just do it via a paddle. You still have control over the 'box, it doesn't take over from you entirely (but the beauty is that is can if you want it to).
I theory yeah, you could see it that way. But the reality is it quickly becomes just a gimmick for many. Having driven automatics/DSG boxes with manual modes I found myself lazily letting the car do it. Might as well, it can do it better than I can anyway. Flicking a stick or pulling a paddle got dull very quickly. So the car did the work and it felt like a tool. The more you take from the driver to do, the less inclined I am to enjoy it. Additionally, the system will override you if it chooses to and you have removed the clutch pedal from the equation, which is part of the involvement. It is a point of interaction between man and machine.
I suppose it's a bit like comparing a E46 M3 to a hot hatch. I would be quicker in the hatchback by a good country mile. It would be easy to drive, grippy and with a mid range wallop to propel me into next week. But would it be more fun? Would I feel connected to the car? Doubt it. There is simply less achievement is going fast in a modern automatic.
Jex said:
With DSG type boxes you can use them as a semi-automatic manual sequential gearbox when you feel like it, so that on the winding B-roads you can be in the correct gear going into the corner instead of the gearbox finding it later. One of the disadvantages is when in that mode the gearbox decides to change down because the revs are too low. This is a disadvantage when, for example, you are coming up to a 3rd gear bend in 6th. You slow down and then push the gear lever three times to select third, but just before you did do, it had changed to 5th, so you end up in 2nd. Doesn't happen with a manual box. I agree with those who say they don't want easier or necessarily quicker, but more control, more fun and a greater sense of accomplishment when it all works out.
I owned a DSG GTI for 18 months and never found that to be an issue. In manual mode , on standard software, it will not change down from 6th until approx 35mph - approx 1400rpm. Ares said:
plenty said:
Ares said:
No manual can possibly keep up like a traditional auto, let alone a DSG/PDK etc. If they could, people would by them.
We're not that far from a time when a car can steer more effectively than a human. Presumably you'll be first in line to buy one of those?kambites said:
Which is fine, but for me (and many other people) they both remove it. Obviously there's a continuum of automation for efficiency/effectiveness vs manual control for the joy of human interaction; the optimal point on that continuum will vary from person to person; the problem is that we increasingly aren't being given a choice.
Case in point - E60 M5.People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
RDMcG said:
This argument goes on and on everywhere but in the showrooms where interest in manuals continues to decline. As it is today few supercars manual. Major brands from Mercedes to Ferrari have abandoned the manual. Yes Porsche makes a few but this will only continue if there is sufficient demand.
There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
Is there an argument in there that many purist drivers do not opt for new cars as the point of a purist driver is that they wish to use their car and not own something just for show off sentiment or for keeping locked in a garage for making maximum investment?There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
When ever the 2nd hand car market is concerned, and driver's cars have gone through a round or two of depreciation, would I be correct in saying that the demand for manual transmission far outweighs the auto equivalent?
Atomic12C said:
RDMcG said:
This argument goes on and on everywhere but in the showrooms where interest in manuals continues to decline. As it is today few supercars manual. Major brands from Mercedes to Ferrari have abandoned the manual. Yes Porsche makes a few but this will only continue if there is sufficient demand.
There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
Is there an argument in there that many purist drivers do not opt for new cars as the point of a purist driver is that they wish to use their car and not own something just for show off sentiment or for keeping locked in a garage for making maximum investment?There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
When ever the 2nd hand car market is concerned, and driver's cars have gone through a round or two of depreciation, would I be correct in saying that the demand for manual transmission far outweighs the auto equivalent?
xjay1337 said:
Case in point - E60 M5.
People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
There was never a manual E60 M5 available in the UK? People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
Even if there was, I'm sure 90% of buyers would have chose the automatic but that doesn't mean it's not an arse for the 10% who want a manual and it also doesn't mean it's not worth someone making a car for that 10%. I suppose the problem really is that rather than playing to their own strengths and trying to carve out their own sub-niches, manufacturers are increasing all heading towards the middle ground of a given segment.
To take your example, it used to be that if you wanted a super-saloon you bought a BMW M-car if you wanted a manual gearbox coupled to a highish-revving naturally aspirated engine; an AMG if you wanted an auto-box and a daft OTT forced induction torque monster and an Audi if you wanted a 4wd drivetrain; these days we just have the choice of three different turbocharged V8 4WD automatics. Now there's nothing wrong with turbocharged V8 4wd automatics, but some people want something else.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 May 13:50
kambites said:
xjay1337 said:
Case in point - E60 M5.
People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
There was never a manual E60 M5 available in the UK? People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
Even if there was, I'm sure 90% of buyers would have chose the automatic but that doesn't mean it's not an arse for the 10% who want a manual and it also doesn't mean it's not worth someone making a car for that 10%. I suppose the problem really is that rather than playing to their own strengths and trying to carve out their own sub-niches, manufacturers are increasing all heading towards the middle ground of a given segment.
To take your example, it used to be that if you wanted a super-saloon you bought a BMW M-car if you wanted a manual gearbox coupled to a highish-revving naturally aspirated engine; an AMG if you wanted an auto-box and a daft OTT forced induction torque monster and an Audi if you wanted a 4wd drivetrain; these days we just have the choice of three different turbocharged V8 4WD automatics. Now there's nothing wrong with turbocharged V8 4wd automatics, but some people want something else.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 May 13:50
It's a bit like cheese in Tesco (bear with me!). Tesco have clearly noticed that Cheddar is the best selling cheese; perhaps the top 30 cheeses sold are all cheddar. For their smaller stores that only have room for 30 cheeses, they stock 30 varieties of cheddar! It would make far more sense to satisfy the cheddar eaters with perhaps 5 to 10 varieties, and then the rest can be a nice variety. The problem with car manufacturers is they're not in collusion with each other; BMW are trying to steal Audi sales by making their cars dull and dependable, and Audi are trying to steal BMW sales by making their cars more interesting. What we should hope for I guess is more variety within each manufacturer - a GT86 style spec for a 3 series would be a good starting point - so for example M Sport suspension without all the pointless design changes that go with M Sport.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 23 May 14:34
kambites said:
xjay1337 said:
Case in point - E60 M5.
People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
There was never a manual E60 M5 available in the UK? People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
Even if there was, I'm sure 90% of buyers would have chose the automatic but that doesn't mean it's not an arse for the 10% who want a manual and it also doesn't mean it's not worth someone making a car for that 10%. I suppose the problem really is that rather than playing to their own strengths and trying to carve out their own sub-niches, manufacturers are increasing all heading towards the middle ground of a given segment.
To take your example, it used to be that if you wanted a super-saloon you bought a BMW M-car if you wanted a manual gearbox coupled to a highish-revving naturally aspirated engine; an AMG if you wanted an auto-box and a daft OTT forced induction torque monster and an Audi if you wanted a 4wd drivetrain; these days we just have the choice of three different turbocharged V8 4WD automatics. Now there's nothing wrong with turbocharged V8 4wd automatics, but some people want something else.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 May 13:50
The issue of moving towards turbocharged autos is mainly to do with emissions. Gone are the days unfortunately of large NA v8/v10/v12 engines in that type of vehicle.
Simply wouldn't sell as much as you or I as enthusiasts would like to have one
If people didn't buy the current M5 because it had a DCT then BMW may look but I reckon it would be 10:1 for DCT/Manual gearboxes
kambites said:
I suppose that's the question isn't it; is there a market for anyone (it doesn't have to be BMW) to make an M5-sized super-saloon which isn't an automatic 4wd turbocharged V8?
You've posted similar before and hit the nail on the head but they've managed to reduce the choice even further with the AWD across them all being introduced.xjay1337 said:
Case in point - E60 M5.
People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
I could be mistaken here, but wasn't the manual box a zero cost option? That makes the autonomous box seem like very good value for money and really makes you think twice about not speccing it. People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
donkmeister said:
Patrick Bateman said:
Nope, US only. We didn't get the choice.
I understand it was a horrible gearbox too. Clutch with a delay valve. Like they tried to make it bad.donkmeister said:
I understand it was a horrible gearbox too. Clutch with a delay valve. Like they tried to make it bad.
Surprised it had it, the e39 didn't. It's easily removed from what I gather anyway.Matt Farah did a good 'one take' on a manual e60-
https://youtu.be/5F9XyFk34tM
xjay1337 said:
kambites said:
Which is fine, but for me (and many other people) they both remove it. Obviously there's a continuum of automation for efficiency/effectiveness vs manual control for the joy of human interaction; the optimal point on that continuum will vary from person to person; the problem is that we increasingly aren't being given a choice.
Case in point - E60 M5.People were given a choice. They chose flappy paddles.
Beards who don't buy the cars don't need the voice.
Ares said:
Beards who don't buy the cars don't need the voice.
Within our lifetimes, people who want to steer themselves may well be viewed as "beards who don't buy the cars"; or at least "beards who don't buy enough of the cars". Cars are have been moving towards automation pretty much since they first existed; this is just a step on that road and everything up to and including full automation will just be further steps on that road. For most people full automation is the nirvana and to that end that's what most manufacturers will ultimately be pushing towards; the only question is whether it is most manufacturers or all manufacturers.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th May 11:48
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