RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) : Review
Discussion
Having spent a bit of time pondering a GT4, the thing that interests me is a) how many are on the market, and b) how long they are sitting there.
People may be asking £90k or so, but few are moving.
Perhaps the buy, mark up, and flip strategy isn't quite as successful as it's made out to be.....
People may be asking £90k or so, but few are moving.
Perhaps the buy, mark up, and flip strategy isn't quite as successful as it's made out to be.....
So this new GT3 and the GT4 ( which I'm lucky enough to own ) are track orientated cars, why is it then that they come nowhere close to passing the noise test limits on most UK Circuits, and many circuits in Europe ? This point never seems to be raised, and is a in my view a major engineering failure by Porsche. I realise that journalists get to drive the cars on special days where noise is not an issue, but for normal folk it's probably the biggest. I've fitted my GT4 with two rather unattractive external silencers, which run parallel to the rear bumper which allow me to get through the noise tests at most circuits at a cost of 13 bhp, but at circuits such as Goodwood and Bedford Autodrome, the induction noise is enough to trip the noise meters. Clearly the majority of "friends of Porsche Dealers" owners don't use their cars so it's not an issue, but for those of us that do, it's a major issue and an Engineering Fail for Porsche .
Cheib said:
AndrewD said:
Every single thread. Why? It has been discussed before. To death.
In the meantime, Dan's driven the car. That's news. This is supposed to be a car site. What did people think of the car?
I'll start. That engine. It seems to define the GT3 more so than any other feature. It sounds just amazing, perhaps the start of a new "Mezger" type of era? The torque and the work they did to make everything spin that much more freely is interesting. I find the engine in my RS is still quite tight at 2000 miles and I suspect this new one will make the car more special than the RS.
Indeed. In the meantime, Dan's driven the car. That's news. This is supposed to be a car site. What did people think of the car?
I'll start. That engine. It seems to define the GT3 more so than any other feature. It sounds just amazing, perhaps the start of a new "Mezger" type of era? The torque and the work they did to make everything spin that much more freely is interesting. I find the engine in my RS is still quite tight at 2000 miles and I suspect this new one will make the car more special than the RS.
It really does seem this is a very special engine...AP said at Geneva it was and for once he doesn't seem to be exaggerating. From what I heard on a couple of the vids I watched today it sounds amazing....pleasingly even on the in car film.
Chris Harris tweeted it's a better engine than that in the R or RS so you could well be right.
Will be very interesting to see what this car is like with the manual.
I agree with your last comment too. Especially as I understand it has the mechanical diff, which Dan mentioned also in his article. I think some of the German mags got hold of a manual, will have to try and find the articles.
Robert-nszl1 said:
People may be asking £90k or so, but few are moving.
Perhaps the buy, mark up, and flip strategy isn't quite as successful as it's made out to be.....
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?! If you actually follow the GT4 threads, you will realise the GT4 market have been very buoyant over winter - 71 GT4's have been sold (all over list) via Porsche since Nov '16. Perhaps the buy, mark up, and flip strategy isn't quite as successful as it's made out to be.....
ravon said:
So this new GT3 and the GT4 ( which I'm lucky enough to own ) are track orientated cars, why is it then that they come nowhere close to passing the noise test limits on most UK Circuits, and many circuits in Europe ? This point never seems to be raised, and is a in my view a major engineering failure by Porsche. I realise that journalists get to drive the cars on special days where noise is not an issue, but for normal folk it's probably the biggest. I've fitted my GT4 with two rather unattractive external silencers, which run parallel to the rear bumper which allow me to get through the noise tests at most circuits at a cost of 13 bhp, but at circuits such as Goodwood and Bedford Autodrome, the induction noise is enough to trip the noise meters. Clearly the majority of "friends of Porsche Dealers" owners don't use their cars so it's not an issue, but for those of us that do, it's a major issue and an Engineering Fail for Porsche .
Know what you mean, but in fairness it frustrates me that the GT3s are quieter than a Carrera with a PSE! Tricky one...Part of the reason why i don't like Ferraris is this factor, because i can't take owners seriously. You have a Scuderia or whatever yet you clearly don't take it on track as it will never meet noise regs.
However, I'd argue it's a good excuse to go to the continent - going to France or Belgium is know worse for a Southerner like than going to somewhere like Oulton Park.
And to extend on your point, the noise thing is a problem because cars like these nowadays are just too fasts for the track. I sold my 991 GT3 not to make money, but because it was just dull at road speeds.
ravon said:
So this new GT3 and the GT4 ( which I'm lucky enough to own ) are track orientated cars, why is it then that they come nowhere close to passing the noise test limits on most UK Circuits, and many circuits in Europe ? This point never seems to be raised, and is a in my view a major engineering failure by Porsche. I realise that journalists get to drive the cars on special days where noise is not an issue, but for normal folk it's probably the biggest. I've fitted my GT4 with two rather unattractive external silencers, which run parallel to the rear bumper which allow me to get through the noise tests at most circuits at a cost of 13 bhp, but at circuits such as Goodwood and Bedford Autodrome, the induction noise is enough to trip the noise meters. Clearly the majority of "friends of Porsche Dealers" owners don't use their cars so it's not an issue, but for those of us that do, it's a major issue and an Engineering Fail for Porsche .
Did you not read the article? These aren't for driving on track. They're for popping to Starbucks in Cheshire and parking in a field in a stately home at PCUK events twice a year.
"Look, I'll never be able to own one either. Does that make me cross? Not really. OK, I speak from the privileged position of having driven the new 'gen two' 911 GT3. But I'm no closer to having one outside my house than any of those embittered types dominating the discussion of the car since its Geneva unveiling. And boy are they furious that the supposed true enthusiasts are apparently barged off The List by the hated investors, flippers, and best mates of the dealer principals.
If you're still angry about this may I politely suggest that you set up another thread and rage together at the injustice of supply and demand, the basic fact more people want a GT3 than Porsche is willing or able to build, and that life JUST ISN'T FAIR sometimes. Better you do that than read about how the car actually goes, because that's only likely to make you more upset.
Right, have the pitchfork brigade gone now? Good. Let's talk about the car."
Slightly self indulgent? as far as I am ware provided they adhere to the rules people are free to post what they like? maybe you should consider a career move to North Korean Motoring News?
If you're still angry about this may I politely suggest that you set up another thread and rage together at the injustice of supply and demand, the basic fact more people want a GT3 than Porsche is willing or able to build, and that life JUST ISN'T FAIR sometimes. Better you do that than read about how the car actually goes, because that's only likely to make you more upset.
Right, have the pitchfork brigade gone now? Good. Let's talk about the car."
Slightly self indulgent? as far as I am ware provided they adhere to the rules people are free to post what they like? maybe you should consider a career move to North Korean Motoring News?
je777 said:
"The weight and response are very good by EPAS standards and the calibration very smart but the more flowing, natural feel of the 996 and 997-era cars is long gone. It's as good as you could hope for though."
No, it isn't. EPAS is completely unnecessary - and purely a political stance: like smaller-engined F1 cars.
A car like this is not built for economy or environmental friendliness. Ruining the steering to save noone-cares-how-much-mpg is ridiculous.
It's hypocrisy. Any reasonably intelligent person knows that this car is not a good choice, environmentally - EPAS changes that not a jot. When you buy one of these - I assume - you put that to one side because 'I really want one'. I totally understand that and would do the same. What I wouldn't do is deny the reality, nor would I pretend to be concerned about it's environmental impact and nor would I feel a little bit better because it had EPAS.
It is indeed completely unnecessary, and it does ruin the steering feel. But I think it's being done because it's so much cheaper to manufacture. They're all at it, and have been doing it for just about long enough for enough peeps to have forgotten how different a hydraulic or unassisted steer feels. And most car buyers either can't tell the difference or simply don't care. It's just us enthusiasts who are mad. We who want to actually feel the road through the steering wheel must look away from new cars.No, it isn't. EPAS is completely unnecessary - and purely a political stance: like smaller-engined F1 cars.
A car like this is not built for economy or environmental friendliness. Ruining the steering to save noone-cares-how-much-mpg is ridiculous.
It's hypocrisy. Any reasonably intelligent person knows that this car is not a good choice, environmentally - EPAS changes that not a jot. When you buy one of these - I assume - you put that to one side because 'I really want one'. I totally understand that and would do the same. What I wouldn't do is deny the reality, nor would I pretend to be concerned about it's environmental impact and nor would I feel a little bit better because it had EPAS.
n17ves said:
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?! If you actually follow the GT4 threads, you will realise the GT4 market have been very buoyant over winter - 71 GT4's have been sold (all over list) via Porsche since Nov '16.
Mine is a little more anecdotal, but a number on AutoTrader etc have been sitting there a good couple of months. I know this because I looked at a couple of them! Also while I don't know how many UK cars were built (I would guess 250 or so out of 2500), but there are 27 on the market at the moment. Seems like a lot. It would appear a very high percentage went to flippers, and I wonder what prices are actually being achieved. Maybe this post will lead to a string of "I got £90k for mine" in which case I will stand corrected!Dan Trent said:
KJH said:
So why do you not do some Investigative journalism on the Porsche and their sales distribution? I think I have never seen any car news outlet done any snooping around Porsche and their sales structure.
Because that doesn't sound as fun, interesting or entertaining to write about as skidding a GT3 round Anglesey? The video would be pretty dull too. 
Dan
It certainly would be interesting to dig into this story a bit deeper, perhaps to provide some authority to the endless anecdotes ("a friend of my mate bought one / couldn't buy one") and give PH an edge on their competitors and perhaps satisfy the curiosity of their readers who are clearly worked up enough about this subject whether their in the market for one of these cars or not.
Otherwise, it could be concluded — and so Dan's response above is not as tongue-in-cheek as it sounds — that PH is there primarily for the journalists' privileged access and visceral enjoyment and not for the benefit of its readers. Or is it antagonising Porsche GB that's the problem?
Yipper said:
Struggle to see the excitement on these things. Mate has got a GT3 RS and it is just a standard dull Porker with a bit of scaffolding in the back.
A good friend of mine (a proper professional racing driver and a man who drives a lot of supercars on track on a regular basis) reckons the 991 GT3 RS is, overall, the best car in the world. I'll take his opinion over yours.alexrogers92 said:
What doesn't make sense about it? What I'm saying is they will be available to buy, but average Joe wants to pay list price for one. You won't get one for list price unless you're chosen by Porsche.
So you have the chance to buy one, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Simple.
'average joe' is people who've spent loads of money on Porsches and bought numerous models over the years but weren't given a slot, they weren't given a cake to eatSo you have the chance to buy one, but you can't have your cake and eat it. Simple.
Robert-nszl1 said:
n17ves said:
How on earth did you come to that conclusion?! If you actually follow the GT4 threads, you will realise the GT4 market have been very buoyant over winter - 71 GT4's have been sold (all over list) via Porsche since Nov '16.
Mine is a little more anecdotal, but a number on AutoTrader etc have been sitting there a good couple of months. I know this because I looked at a couple of them! Also while I don't know how many UK cars were built (I would guess 250 or so out of 2500), but there are 27 on the market at the moment. Seems like a lot. It would appear a very high percentage went to flippers, and I wonder what prices are actually being achieved. Maybe this post will lead to a string of "I got £90k for mine" in which case I will stand corrected!What N17ves hasnt mentioned is that the list is based on OPC movements, what the list doesnt tell you is if the car was SORN and returned to seller or physically sold. Nor if the cars are just punted around trade as the 'list' doesnt include non-OPC garages
Durzel said:
Don't quite get the need to dedicate 3 paragraphs to attacking the readership the article is hoping to get attention from...
The stage managed availability of cars like this is a problem and it's not unreasonable for people who just want to be able to buy and enjoy these cars to moan about having to suffer the ridiculous market dynamics.
At this end of the market Porsche seems to be in the business of releasing new investment assets every year rather than selling cars to people who want to be able to enjoy them for what they are.
+1 (more) Very well said. The stage managed availability of cars like this is a problem and it's not unreasonable for people who just want to be able to buy and enjoy these cars to moan about having to suffer the ridiculous market dynamics.
At this end of the market Porsche seems to be in the business of releasing new investment assets every year rather than selling cars to people who want to be able to enjoy them for what they are.
So the GT3 has 493bhp, the same as the old GT3 RS. There doesn't feel like there is much head room for more power out of what is clearly an amazing engine.
So where does Porsche go?:
- GT3 RS with the same power but with extreme lightening? Even more use of carbon etc
- Miss the GT3 RS and go straight to the GT2 RS - which is pretty much confirmed already
- 4.1 or 4.2 litre version of this engine?
& will Porsche do a 991.2 R?
tim milne said:
Dan Trent said:
KJH said:
So why do you not do some Investigative journalism on the Porsche and their sales distribution? I think I have never seen any car news outlet done any snooping around Porsche and their sales structure.
Because that doesn't sound as fun, interesting or entertaining to write about as skidding a GT3 round Anglesey? The video would be pretty dull too. Dan
It certainly would be interesting to dig into this story a bit deeper, perhaps to provide some authority to the endless anecdotes ("a friend of my mate bought one / couldn't buy one") and give PH an edge on their competitors and perhaps satisfy the curiosity of their readers who are clearly worked up enough about this subject whether their in the market for one of these cars or not.
Otherwise, it could be concluded — and so Dan's response above is not as tongue-in-cheek as it sounds — that PH is there primarily for the journalists' privileged access and visceral enjoyment and not for the benefit of its readers. Or is it antagonising Porsche GB that's the problem?
I'll repeat what I said earlier and agree this IS an interesting subject and whether the picture painted in discussion is true or not it's a problem of perception Porsche GB needs to be aware of and deal with. In the background I have been talking about it with them and a few folk I know with experience of going through the process of buying and selling cars like this and their experiences with a view to exploring it in more detail a little way along the line. Two reasons I haven't done this yet.
1) I honestly did want to just talk about the car and, yes, celebrate it for what it is. We may not all be able to buy one but with Porsche building them and such a fuss being made about a naturally aspirated, track focused car being offered with a manual gearbox you can only hope the rest of the industry is taking note and perhaps considering a customer demographic they thought was dead and gone may yet be worth catering for. Or, in the case of those that still do (I'm thinking of Lotus specifically) maybe send some of that business their way. If not the second coming it IS a car worth getting excited about and I just wanted the chance to be able to do that.
2) Experience shows (again repeating myself) that the situation a year on from the launch when the order process has shaken out is often very different. Case in point, a mate with no previous history of buying new Porsches had very much the 'in your dreams mate' response when he approached his OPC about a GT4 in the midst of very similar hype. He put a deposit in anyway, bought a used 997 GT3 instead and then a year later got a call from the same OPC to say "if you want to proceed with the order we now have a slot for you". Not saying it'll be the same in this instance but the atmosphere immediately following the announcement and first drives of a new GT Porsche is often somewhat febrile and once reality kicks in the picture looks very different.
So I'm not complacent. I am interested. But I'm going to play the long game, see how it ACTUALLY plays out and gather intelligence along the way before revisiting it in due course.
For now, yes, I'll happily indulge in a bit of fun with the car and celebrate what it is as a machine, rather than get bogged down in the politics of how it is sold.
Hope that makes sense!
Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Friday 28th April 13:16
Dale487 said:
So the GT3 has 493bhp, the same as the old GT3 RS. There doesn't feel like there is much head room for more power out of what is clearly an amazing engine.
So where does Porsche go?:
- GT3 RS with the same power but with extreme lightening? Even more use of carbon etc
- Miss the GT3 RS and go straight to the GT2 RS - which is pretty much confirmed already
- 4.1 or 4.2 litre version of this engine?
& will Porsche do a 991.2 R?
Certainly some room for some forthcoming modelsSo where does Porsche go?:
- GT3 RS with the same power but with extreme lightening? Even more use of carbon etc
- Miss the GT3 RS and go straight to the GT2 RS - which is pretty much confirmed already
- 4.1 or 4.2 litre version of this engine?
& will Porsche do a 991.2 R?
I.e. a 991.2 GT3 RS
a 991 GT2 and 991 GT2 RS
991.2R
av185 said:
Don't forget Porsche are the marketing masters of the universe.
The GT cars are actually less profitable than you would think. And they are deliberately underpriced to promote the shiny bauble effect getting everyone clamouring for one as the next best thing.
Porsche aren't interested in making say another £30k per car which they could do quite easily on this new GT3. Especially for the limited production UK market which would amount to relative peanuts. The big money comes from brand filtering to lesser lower range vanilla models and resultant increasing sales.
Overall a brilliant business strategy.
Interesting. Porsche may well be king of marketing strategy and certainly more experienced in that field than I, but the whole nonsense about going begging on one knee fellating the sales manager to try and enter the lottery to hand over more than 100 thousand of my hard earned to be deserving of a seat in a 911....nah, you're ok thanks. The GT cars are actually less profitable than you would think. And they are deliberately underpriced to promote the shiny bauble effect getting everyone clamouring for one as the next best thing.
Porsche aren't interested in making say another £30k per car which they could do quite easily on this new GT3. Especially for the limited production UK market which would amount to relative peanuts. The big money comes from brand filtering to lesser lower range vanilla models and resultant increasing sales.
Overall a brilliant business strategy.
It might be the best car in the world. It might be made of sugar and spice and all things nice, have an exhaust that emits pure Dom P and smell of Bounty bars. I couldn't succumb to the whole charade and I think the whole practice comes across as a bit of a joke. For those who are happy to play the game, or the privileged few who sailed through because they know someone, or are someone, then fair play - enjoy your car. For me, it places a cloud over a company and ironically my petrolhead mates, several of who were die-hard Porker fanboys who pointed me that way every car change time and were wax lyrical, now have bad tastes left in their mouth.
Make something exclusive and everyone wants a piece of the pie (Madoff proved that even when the pie was a Greggs out of date one). However, make the process transparent at the very least, and debunk the myths of how these limited cars are being allocated. Discretionary allocation is always going to leave people unhappy and perplexed and it also places a large amount of power in the hands of a selected few. Thou not lead us to temptation.
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