RE: Honda Integra Type R (DC2): PH Heroes
Discussion
I've had two 
The first was my first performance car at 21yo and had HKS intake and exhaust system coupled with a remap. Was dynod to 202BHP. Absolutely adored it and living in Scotland at the time I had a riot with it on quiet evening roads. He was called Dexter.
My second was when I was buying my first house in Essex. Had sold my Z4M to fund my deposit and needed a cheaper runaround that wouldn't make me want to kill myself. Unfortunately the Z4M had spoiled me and I just didn't gel with it the same way. It was cold on cold mornings, it was rattly, it was noisy and not in a particularly pleasant way... basically I'd be spoiled by a £50k M car. Sold it after 6 months - making £1,000 by being shrewd with haggling when buying and making small but important fixes before selling - and ended up with my E92 M3.
Basically M cars are the spiritual successor to DC2s when you've grown up a bit and have a morning commute to do!
To rank my cars I'd put my E92 M3 first as best all round and my first DC2 second.
The first was my first performance car at 21yo and had HKS intake and exhaust system coupled with a remap. Was dynod to 202BHP. Absolutely adored it and living in Scotland at the time I had a riot with it on quiet evening roads. He was called Dexter.
My second was when I was buying my first house in Essex. Had sold my Z4M to fund my deposit and needed a cheaper runaround that wouldn't make me want to kill myself. Unfortunately the Z4M had spoiled me and I just didn't gel with it the same way. It was cold on cold mornings, it was rattly, it was noisy and not in a particularly pleasant way... basically I'd be spoiled by a £50k M car. Sold it after 6 months - making £1,000 by being shrewd with haggling when buying and making small but important fixes before selling - and ended up with my E92 M3.
Basically M cars are the spiritual successor to DC2s when you've grown up a bit and have a morning commute to do!
To rank my cars I'd put my E92 M3 first as best all round and my first DC2 second.
PH, will you STOP doing this. I really want another and this sort of thing isn't helping...
As has been said though, the overall powertrain is better than ANYTHING fitted to an Elise* - even where the Lotus engine broadly matches-up (VHPD K / s'charged 'yota), the gearbox / gearchange doesn't...which makes it for me a more complete package for a B-road and arguably more satisfying as a result...but you're splitting hairs between them, in all honesty...
* I'd love to try a V6 Exige...
sege said:
A better way to look at it is that a Caterham is an ultimate experience, not bettered by anything, there are only alternatives. But it's an extreme little car!
An Elise is an exceptional sports car, better than nearly anything else out there. More practical than a Caterham, superior in some ways too (steering etc).
A DC2R is an exceptional small coupe, better than nearly anything else out there as a drivers car, bar things like an Elise and Caterham, but much, much more practical, and superior in some ways too, (engine, reliability etc).
There all just different points in the practicality scale and all better drivers cars than most of stuff out there, and anything at all that is new or modern.
I'd broadly agree with that sentiment, but for an average driver the chassis is so much more accessible than an Elise (S2 111R as my reference point) - in the Elise you're very conscious of where the weight is and what effect it will have if you breach the limits on the road / in the 'teg you're very conscious that the rear end is ALWAYS on your side, and you can make it dance accordingly, either neat-and-4-wheels-in-balance, or almost French-style L-O-O if you want to be a hooligan.An Elise is an exceptional sports car, better than nearly anything else out there. More practical than a Caterham, superior in some ways too (steering etc).
A DC2R is an exceptional small coupe, better than nearly anything else out there as a drivers car, bar things like an Elise and Caterham, but much, much more practical, and superior in some ways too, (engine, reliability etc).
There all just different points in the practicality scale and all better drivers cars than most of stuff out there, and anything at all that is new or modern.
As has been said though, the overall powertrain is better than ANYTHING fitted to an Elise* - even where the Lotus engine broadly matches-up (VHPD K / s'charged 'yota), the gearbox / gearchange doesn't...which makes it for me a more complete package for a B-road and arguably more satisfying as a result...but you're splitting hairs between them, in all honesty...
* I'd love to try a V6 Exige...
GroundEffect said:
I've had two
The first was my first performance car at 21yo and had HKS intake and exhaust system coupled with a remap. Was dynod to 202BHP. Absolutely adored it and living in Scotland at the time I had a riot with it on quiet evening roads. He was called Dexter.
My second was when I was buying my first house in Essex. Had sold my Z4M to fund my deposit and needed a cheaper runaround that wouldn't make me want to kill myself. Unfortunately the Z4M had spoiled me and I just didn't gel with it the same way. It was cold on cold mornings, it was rattly, it was noisy and not in a particularly pleasant way... basically I'd be spoiled by a £50k M car. Sold it after 6 months - making £1,000 by being shrewd with haggling when buying and making small but important fixes before selling - and ended up with my E92 M3.
Basically M cars are the spiritual successor to DC2s when you've grown up a bit and have a morning commute to do!
To rank my cars I'd put my E92 M3 first as best all round and my first DC2 second.
This is exactly the sentiment that worries me.The first was my first performance car at 21yo and had HKS intake and exhaust system coupled with a remap. Was dynod to 202BHP. Absolutely adored it and living in Scotland at the time I had a riot with it on quiet evening roads. He was called Dexter.
My second was when I was buying my first house in Essex. Had sold my Z4M to fund my deposit and needed a cheaper runaround that wouldn't make me want to kill myself. Unfortunately the Z4M had spoiled me and I just didn't gel with it the same way. It was cold on cold mornings, it was rattly, it was noisy and not in a particularly pleasant way... basically I'd be spoiled by a £50k M car. Sold it after 6 months - making £1,000 by being shrewd with haggling when buying and making small but important fixes before selling - and ended up with my E92 M3.
Basically M cars are the spiritual successor to DC2s when you've grown up a bit and have a morning commute to do!
To rank my cars I'd put my E92 M3 first as best all round and my first DC2 second.
Have fancied one for as long as I can remember and now have funds sitting for a minty minty one to appear as a weekend car. However, my last 7 years have been spent in AMGs and I'm worried that I'd be a bit dissapointed.
Never meet your heroes and all that....
lee_erm said:
Such a shame Honda has lost its way.
I wouldn't say Honda has lost its way. It's just the way the world is.If they released the Integra Type R again tomorrow it would sell in small numbers, nowhere near what it did when it actually came out. Not to mention that it wouldn't get close to modern safety/emission regulations.
The modern world killed cars like the ITR, not the manufacturers IMO.
Plus, even though it's ugly as sin, the new CTR would murder an ITR around a track. Let's not kid ourselves, it was a great car in its day but modern hot hatches are faster and more capable even if they lack the 'raw' ability of their older brethren.
I was once very close to buying a ratty Milano red Integra but opted for an S14a 200SX instead, I'm glad I did just to scratch the itch, I'm also glad I bought my EP3 over a DC2 because for all it's faults, the EP3 is a 'nicer' day to day car IMO.
I've always fancied one of these, but I now think they've got quite expensive (about 8 grand?) and other options are perhaps better value. For example, you could get a Megane R26 F1 for a few thousand less, which is faster on road and track and ten years newer; a Clio Trophy is also cheaper and arguably as much fun.
Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
Edited by greenarrow on Sunday 30th April 18:54
SidewaysSi said:
Given prices now, who people pick one over an RS product?
Also I think BMW M cars don't really match the Integra. Too big, too heavy and blunt IMO. More fast 3 and 5 Series cars than proper road racers.
Agreed regarding the M cars point.Also I think BMW M cars don't really match the Integra. Too big, too heavy and blunt IMO. More fast 3 and 5 Series cars than proper road racers.
I really wanted a clio 200 cup before buying the teg so drove two but the gearbox, engine, steering and driving position were not even close. It just didn't give me that road racer feel and I can't imagine the megane being much better. I do admire Renault for making them though and would love to try an r26r.
I think the negative opinions stem from people who don't understand the basic premise of balance, sense of occasion, power to weight ratio and normally aspirated adjustability at the limit.
For those who like the lardy stuff, that is to miss the point. This is a weekend car that can be practical too, but is there to make you feel alive when the BMW commute wagon wont.
As they were hand finished, each had a character of its own, and some were exceptionally good. Drive a great example and you wont regret it. Not much to catch an integra when fully committed in the twisties. Even down the straights mine was equal with a Mitsubishi evo 6.
For those who like the lardy stuff, that is to miss the point. This is a weekend car that can be practical too, but is there to make you feel alive when the BMW commute wagon wont.
As they were hand finished, each had a character of its own, and some were exceptionally good. Drive a great example and you wont regret it. Not much to catch an integra when fully committed in the twisties. Even down the straights mine was equal with a Mitsubishi evo 6.
greenarrow said:
I've always fancied one of these, but I now think they've got quite expensive (about 8 grand?) and other options are perhaps better value. For example, you could get a Megane R26 F1 for a few thousand less, which is faster on road and track and ten years newer; a Clio Trophy is also cheaper and arguably as much fun.
Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
Similar thoughts here - fantastic cars, but poindfor pound a Megane 250 is what sprung to mind if looking for a great hatch for around £10k.Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
Edited by greenarrow on Sunday 30th April 18:54
I had an MR 120k miler back 8years ago & wished I'd never sold it...
So bought a CW 51k mile UK DC2 last year. Factory standard except for a couple of unseen tweaks
It's power/weight ratio & adjustability really does make it punch far above its weight even on today's roads...
A well sorted & maintained DC2 will still scare the sh*t out of a lot of modern stuff when driven properly
So bought a CW 51k mile UK DC2 last year. Factory standard except for a couple of unseen tweaks
It's power/weight ratio & adjustability really does make it punch far above its weight even on today's roads...
A well sorted & maintained DC2 will still scare the sh*t out of a lot of modern stuff when driven properly
SidewaysSi said:
It got better with force through the diff. Pure speed e.g. a motorway didn't help it so it often felt surprisingly muted when it should have been bubbling with feel. I really liked my Integra, did 50k miles in 4 years on road and track but the steering was poor. There are other power steered cars which I much prefer.
However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
I've had my Clio bordering on 2 years now, 182 non cup with cooksport springs. I sold the Teg after 6 months.However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
It's more practical than the Teg, has toys etc. It's quieter at a cruise I prefer the engine (a lot more low down torque) and still rev happy.
VTECs always felt like an EXTREMELY laggy turbo in my opinion.
Addymk2 said:
SidewaysSi said:
It got better with force through the diff. Pure speed e.g. a motorway didn't help it so it often felt surprisingly muted when it should have been bubbling with feel. I really liked my Integra, did 50k miles in 4 years on road and track but the steering was poor. There are other power steered cars which I much prefer.
However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
I've had my Clio bordering on 2 years now, 182 non cup with cooksport springs. I sold the Teg after 6 months.However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
It's more practical than the Teg, has toys etc. It's quieter at a cruise I prefer the engine (a lot more low down torque) and still rev happy.
VTECs always felt like an EXTREMELY laggy turbo in my opinion.
The Integra just 'feels' more special, rare & bespoke to me- no comparison with build quality & the engine is a gem.
So it's a little busy & feels short-geared maybe- but that's the whole VTEC essence. It's just an oversized bike engine. It absolutely thrives on revs & doesn't hit its rev limiter until 8400 so I don't get why folk get so bent out of shape that it pulls more revs whilst cruising. Relaxing- maybe not, but a standard car is hardly a noisy, bone-shaking buzzy tin. I actually find the B-series amazingly smooth for a 4 pot
The R&D & heritage of the Integra also sets it apart
As for toys- I don't think many ITR owners care much for them, it's all about the drive...
greenarrow said:
Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
That situation happens quite often. Some cars seemingly grow in stature over the years ....whereas others diminish. Not just the IntegraIt's interesting to see peoples' comments on cars and how they often differ markedly from a majority of press reviews....... Although sometimes people are content to take on board journalistic opinions where they feel it fits with their impression of a car. Human nature I suppose.
With older cars not so many will have had the opportunity to drive a factory-fresh example of a car and rate it amongst similar cars of the era, they can be driving an averagely-maintained 80k miler with a few mods.......and comparing it to cars from a couple of decades later, with all the improvements the passage of time and technology has wrought
chrismc1977 said:
I had an MR 120k miler back 8years ago & wished I'd never sold it...
So bought a CW 51k mile UK DC2 last year. Factory standard except for a couple of unseen tweaks
It's power/weight ratio & adjustability really does make it punch far above its weight even on today's roads...
A well sorted & maintained DC2 will still scare the sh*t out of a lot of modern stuff when driven properly
How do I know if my car is feeling scared and has had its sSo bought a CW 51k mile UK DC2 last year. Factory standard except for a couple of unseen tweaks
It's power/weight ratio & adjustability really does make it punch far above its weight even on today's roads...
A well sorted & maintained DC2 will still scare the sh*t out of a lot of modern stuff when driven properly
t removed?The best-sounding 4pot in the 132-year history of the automobile.
The way the NA VTEC transformed from granny car at low revs to beautiful F1 wailer at high revs never gets old. The split personality gives it a human-like character that very few cars have ever matched (or match).
https://youtu.be/uA9ak24MsLg
The way the NA VTEC transformed from granny car at low revs to beautiful F1 wailer at high revs never gets old. The split personality gives it a human-like character that very few cars have ever matched (or match).
https://youtu.be/uA9ak24MsLg
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