RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW
Discussion
The window for enjoyment for most car these days is getting smaller all the time. With lower speed limits, dawdling Peugeot drivers and the sheer volume of traffic it will only get worse. The 86's window is smaller still with less power but get this on the right road and it's fantastic. Living in Wales I have access to plenty of them. Even my commute to work is a great one when it's empty and knowing every inch of it helps massively. My brother has one and I love driving it. It's just had lighter OZ wheels and PS4's which has meant some of the playfulness has gone, by that I mean it's ability to slide easily but now it's more serious, more focused again and the steering is even more responsive.
If I owned one in town I'd be frustrated with it but where I am it's a riot. Yes overtaking is harder as there's no easily accessible lump of torque to push you past but if you plan it better it's fine. My issue is being used to nearly 300bhp and dropping at least 100bhp would be a step down. I look at getting one to replace my vRS all the time but also knowing I'd have to adjust things and also lose all the practicality. The UEL manifolds with full exhaust is a must for these. The map get rid of the torque dip and it sounds so much better.
If I owned one in town I'd be frustrated with it but where I am it's a riot. Yes overtaking is harder as there's no easily accessible lump of torque to push you past but if you plan it better it's fine. My issue is being used to nearly 300bhp and dropping at least 100bhp would be a step down. I look at getting one to replace my vRS all the time but also knowing I'd have to adjust things and also lose all the practicality. The UEL manifolds with full exhaust is a must for these. The map get rid of the torque dip and it sounds so much better.
Venturist said:
Nailed it. I lusted for one since the first concepts, I test drove one when they came out and knew it was the car for me, finally got one and... I just never gelled with it at all. Never really enjoyed it. Got rid after a few months at great expense.
That "playful back end" the reviews love, in real life to me it just felt skittish. Back end steps out under power over a crest, or an off-camber corner, or accidentally when exiting a roundabout, or even when pulling away from a junction a little too urgently. So you end up being delicate with it around corners because you don't want to be attacking a bend only to have a little dip in the tarmac send the back end out towards Mrs Lewis who's coming the other way in her Zafira. And yes, the alignment was correct and I tried the factory tyres AND some wider stickier ones.
You also can't overtake without a huge long straight, so you rarely get any clear road to enjoy, and when you do wind it out it feels wheezy and sounds crap.
I also hated the gearshift and clutch feel despite having everything checked and adjusted to suit.
Swing and a miss. Sold it at a loss and haven't looked back.
was @ donnington last summer and a guy spun his gt86 going round a corner at a very slow speed in the dryThat "playful back end" the reviews love, in real life to me it just felt skittish. Back end steps out under power over a crest, or an off-camber corner, or accidentally when exiting a roundabout, or even when pulling away from a junction a little too urgently. So you end up being delicate with it around corners because you don't want to be attacking a bend only to have a little dip in the tarmac send the back end out towards Mrs Lewis who's coming the other way in her Zafira. And yes, the alignment was correct and I tried the factory tyres AND some wider stickier ones.
You also can't overtake without a huge long straight, so you rarely get any clear road to enjoy, and when you do wind it out it feels wheezy and sounds crap.
I also hated the gearshift and clutch feel despite having everything checked and adjusted to suit.
Swing and a miss. Sold it at a loss and haven't looked back.
V8 FOU said:
I always wince at the criticisms of the GT86.
A BMW M3 E30 has roughly the same power and weight and everyone gets very moist about it.
GT86? Not enough power/too heavy etc.
I will admit to not having driven one, but I "get it" 100%. Makes so much sense - but when did sense matter on PH?
Until you drive one you wont know whats wrong with it.A BMW M3 E30 has roughly the same power and weight and everyone gets very moist about it.
GT86? Not enough power/too heavy etc.
I will admit to not having driven one, but I "get it" 100%. Makes so much sense - but when did sense matter on PH?
I borrowed one for a week fully expecting to love it and it left me feeling very disappointed.
As a previous owner of things like Integra Type R, BMW E30 M3, 968 sport, EVO RS, Spec C Impreza, Vx220, Ax GT, MR2 etc etc I was fully expecting the Gt86 to be exactly my sort of car.
After over 1,000 miles driving including thrashing it round some nice quiet country roads and cruising along motorways I gave it back thinking how did they miss the mark when they made this car.
Edited by rallycross on Tuesday 16th May 11:46
A PH post from the writers themselves with some proper attitude and directed at the typical forum posters, no-less! I like it!
I don't really get the hate either. It's a pure, raw sportscar in a world of lardy and over-sized hatchbacks with way too much power. We should be commending Toyota rather than shaming them. Remember, the GT-86's drawbacks are also the reason why it's such a good car. However, i'm not against a turbo version. I've seen a few of the aftermarket conversions done and they seem to be a really good proposition, albeit obviously expensive.
I didn't get the bit about people complaining about the 718 that haven't actually driven it. Yes, there is some truth there but i personally don't think you need to drive a 4-cylinder Porsche and not like it, especially if you're a Porsche enthusiast. Yes, it might well be capable and fast but if i want a decent 4 banger with a German badge, i'd probably get a Golf R, save a wod of cash in the process and put up with the 4WD as apposed to RWD.
I don't really get the hate either. It's a pure, raw sportscar in a world of lardy and over-sized hatchbacks with way too much power. We should be commending Toyota rather than shaming them. Remember, the GT-86's drawbacks are also the reason why it's such a good car. However, i'm not against a turbo version. I've seen a few of the aftermarket conversions done and they seem to be a really good proposition, albeit obviously expensive.
I didn't get the bit about people complaining about the 718 that haven't actually driven it. Yes, there is some truth there but i personally don't think you need to drive a 4-cylinder Porsche and not like it, especially if you're a Porsche enthusiast. Yes, it might well be capable and fast but if i want a decent 4 banger with a German badge, i'd probably get a Golf R, save a wod of cash in the process and put up with the 4WD as apposed to RWD.
Max_Torque said:
I live in the south, i drive mostly during rush hour. I commute 16 miles a day (each way) on B roads. Back in 2001 that trip took 16min, with just one 30mph limit through a small village. In 2017, that same commute now takes 45min, and has huge swathes of 30 and 40 mph limits, double white lines to prevent overtaking and hordes of dawdlers, paying no attention what-so-ever to their driving, doing 40 as a maximum.
If lived in Scotland, or Wales then yes, perhaps i'd enjoy driving a bit more, but today, where i live, driving is a chore.....
(which is why i have an EV and a pokey diesel........ ;-)
bit of a silly argument Max, c'mon.If lived in Scotland, or Wales then yes, perhaps i'd enjoy driving a bit more, but today, where i live, driving is a chore.....
(which is why i have an EV and a pokey diesel........ ;-)
Your commute time has tripled. So, i suspect nobody overtakes - which is the norm that i see in rush hour anyway as the gains are minimal, traffic is also oncoming and you'll end up with angry people around you. The only logical deduction i can make is that the best car for you is an EV with comfy seats and a good radio. I agree that the ideal DD will often be auto, comfortable and full of toys. To say that a sporty car has no role is illogical. If you feel that you'd have to 'condemn' all sporty cars, which is a different argument. It's true that to enjoy cars these days you have to live in the right area and also make an effort. Some people are lucky, others compromise and make an effort. it's not mandatory.
WCZ said:
was @ donnington last summer and a guy spun his gt86 going round a corner at a very slow speed in the dry
Whilst I'm not saying it wasn't down to the car, I've seen people spin very mundane and stable cars at very innocuous places on race tracks because of driver error.As said, I'm not saying it was or wasn't down to the car, but it doesn't prove anything that a chap managed to spin it. Probably just had a go at the moves in the PH video above lol
A decent chassis and car like the GT86 deserves, nay demands a stunning engine. And it just doesn't have one.
I test drove it, and the engine was just so dull and unenjoyable to rev. I would echo the comments about it feeling like only 160bhp.
I would also echo the comments about the world having moved on and the GT has not, and TDI's can now easily out power or at least make life difficult, which makes overtaking a risky proposition. I can understand that unlike say, Honda, Toyota don't have a history of amazing sports car engines, which is why when they partnered with Subaru we were expecting a great engine, which is why the dull 2.0 is especially disappointing - Subaru have 3.0 flat sixes, 2.0 turbos with 300bhp - all sorts of proven and tested awesomeness.
The other problem is that it is an enthusiasts car. An enthusiast is always going to be much more willing to look at older, used cars, so unless the car offers something new, something not seen before, it is going to compete in its price class against used metal. And the choice of used metal that offers more is wide and impressive, s2000's, Porsches, Lotuses. I think this is the reason used prices have remained so high - people looked at and though, yea, nice car but f**k paying 25K - I will buy one in a few years when the price comes down.
If they had married an amazing engine to the chassis it would have been unique and special enough to push people into buying a new car, but they missed that opportunity.
I test drove it, and the engine was just so dull and unenjoyable to rev. I would echo the comments about it feeling like only 160bhp.
I would also echo the comments about the world having moved on and the GT has not, and TDI's can now easily out power or at least make life difficult, which makes overtaking a risky proposition. I can understand that unlike say, Honda, Toyota don't have a history of amazing sports car engines, which is why when they partnered with Subaru we were expecting a great engine, which is why the dull 2.0 is especially disappointing - Subaru have 3.0 flat sixes, 2.0 turbos with 300bhp - all sorts of proven and tested awesomeness.
The other problem is that it is an enthusiasts car. An enthusiast is always going to be much more willing to look at older, used cars, so unless the car offers something new, something not seen before, it is going to compete in its price class against used metal. And the choice of used metal that offers more is wide and impressive, s2000's, Porsches, Lotuses. I think this is the reason used prices have remained so high - people looked at and though, yea, nice car but f**k paying 25K - I will buy one in a few years when the price comes down.
If they had married an amazing engine to the chassis it would have been unique and special enough to push people into buying a new car, but they missed that opportunity.
NJ72 said:
WCZ said:
was @ donnington last summer and a guy spun his gt86 going round a corner at a very slow speed in the dry
Whilst I'm not saying it wasn't down to the car, I've seen people spin very mundane and stable cars at very innocuous places on race tracks because of driver error.As said, I'm not saying it was or wasn't down to the car, but it doesn't prove anything that a chap managed to spin it. Probably just had a go at the moves in the PH video above lol
culpz said:
It's a pure, raw sportscar .
er, it really isn't you know. If they did a RS version or something then maybe, but as std, it's a fairly mundane, pretty low powered road car.When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
Max_Torque said:
culpz said:
It's a pure, raw sportscar .
er, it really isn't you know. If they did a RS version or something then maybe, but as std, it's a fairly mundane, pretty low powered road car.When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
The problem with the GT86 is a lack of practicality rules it out as an every day car, and it's not special enough to be an occasional car.
daemon said:
Fours years on and just as it was back then really :-
Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
^^ This.Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
The GT86 is barely advertised, and gets no selling incentives (subsidised finance deals or whatever).
It almost as if Toyota is being deliberately obtuse and doesn't want the GT86 to sell, so they can hold up their hands and say "see, we tried making a purist's RWD sports car, but no-one wanted it, so we'll just stick to flogging Aygos and Yarises."
It's a long time ago now, but I remember reading that the EP3 (breadvan) Civic Type R barely made any money for Honda at the RRP of £15,995 but it was a great advertisement for Honda's technical capabilities.
Toyota could choose to really push the GT86 if it wanted to, maybe getting a basic model out there for £19,995 or some other headline grabbing price, but instead it has chosen to keep it a small volume niche car and make an extra five grand per unit by selling only to the "purists".
I'm one of the people who "don't get it". Felt very underpowered, wheezy and sounded awful. The gearchange wasn't up to much as mentioned by another poster. The interior was crap. Admittedly it had nice steering but the chassis never felt anything special. S2000, mx5, any Boxster hold far more allure than this for me.
I keep telling myself I need to drive one, but can I point something out to the critics...
The core issue seems to be the asthmatic engine that doesn't enjoy revs, and isn't as quick as the rest of the car should be, mounted in an exemplary chassis that 'just works' (albeit is perhaps a little oversteery at the back - geo / rubber changes, surely???).
Isn't that very similar to the original Mk1/2 MX5 - the PH "answer to everything"?!?
- The 1.8 feels like a hatchback engine in a sports car (1.6 more free-revving but barely enough power)
- The car feels like it needs more grip to be driven at pace on trafficked, give-and-take roads.
So if everyone on here rates the older MX-5s, why the criticism of the GT86???
The core issue seems to be the asthmatic engine that doesn't enjoy revs, and isn't as quick as the rest of the car should be, mounted in an exemplary chassis that 'just works' (albeit is perhaps a little oversteery at the back - geo / rubber changes, surely???).
Isn't that very similar to the original Mk1/2 MX5 - the PH "answer to everything"?!?
- The 1.8 feels like a hatchback engine in a sports car (1.6 more free-revving but barely enough power)
- The car feels like it needs more grip to be driven at pace on trafficked, give-and-take roads.
So if everyone on here rates the older MX-5s, why the criticism of the GT86???
monzaxjr said:
I'm one of the people who "don't get it". Felt very underpowered, wheezy and sounded awful. The gearchange wasn't up to much as mentioned by another poster. The interior was crap. Admittedly it had nice steering but the chassis never felt anything special. S2000, mx5, any Boxster hold far more allure than this for me.
I havnt driven one admittedly but I always loved the idea of the GT86. But I really do think it needs more power to appeal. There was one at a recent trackday at Oulton and I couldn't believe how slow it was down the straights, my 182 murdered it and I am no racing driver, I was quite shocked actually. A conversation with the driver later in the day revealed that he was absolutely flat out and he looked a little disappointed to say the least. I know its not all about power, I totally get that but these things are utterly gutless from what I have seen! jayemdoubleu said:
Max_Torque said:
culpz said:
It's a pure, raw sportscar .
er, it really isn't you know. If they did a RS version or something then maybe, but as std, it's a fairly mundane, pretty low powered road car.When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
The problem with the GT86 is a lack of practicality rules it out as an every day car, and it's not special enough to be an occasional car.
Hot-hatches are great, i love them. But, they're just normal hatchbacks with more power. The same can't be said for sports cars and the GT-86 in particular. It's not all about power and 0-60 times and the little Toyota proves that.
Both of your comments prove that you don't actually fully understand the fundamentals of a sports car.
daemon said:
Fours years on and just as it was back then really :-
Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
Nail, head.Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
If you've driven one you will understand, if you haven't then you don't know any better.
HKS turbo kit installed and it's the car it always should have been from the factory.
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