RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW
Discussion
GTEYE said:
+1 Golf R every time.
Whilst the Golf does a lot of things better than the GT-86, the GT-86 does very few if any things better than the Golf.
The majority of buyers are buying either of these as their main driver, hence the Golf wins the sales race hands down.
stick a slice of lime in a sWhilst the Golf does a lot of things better than the GT-86, the GT-86 does very few if any things better than the Golf.
The majority of buyers are buying either of these as their main driver, hence the Golf wins the sales race hands down.
te Mexican beer, charge over £5 for it in a cool bar. wins the sales race hands down.The R is the answer to the 1 car question. It is not the answer to all driving needs and desires.
E65Ross said:
MarshPhantom said:
Why not buy an old car you like rather than a new one you don't.
Some people might not want an old car that others have sat and farted in for the last 20 years? Or they want something with a warranty? They want something they can spec themselves? Many reasons why.Max_Torque said:
BTW, the boxer ENGINE may have a low CofG when referenced to its crankshaft centreline, but the CAR it ends up in does not, because that crank CL has to be much higher to get the necessary clearance for the exhaust system underneath!
I'm just trying to visualise that. I'm pretty sure that the exhaust wraps itself around the sump which I don't recall being significantly deeper than usual. Need a picture to see that one.Does it have to go up so high that it negates the advantages of the heads being lower?
Max_Torque said:
Fair enough, i'll take you off my christmas card list then.... ;-)
Much obliged.Max_Torque said:
Not really no. There is plenty of solid engineering reasons as to why the GT-86 isn't a very good sports car.
On the other hand, there are plenty of reasons why it actually is.Max_Torque said:
So, YOU are struggling to understand something, and that makes me an idiot / plonker?
Let me try again:
You have, lets say around £30k to spend.
You want an 'exciting' and fast' car, but need real world practicality. Do you buy that Golf R or the GT-86. Despite you being not able to understand it, the real world has voted with their wallets, and hence you see a lot of GolfR's and very, very few GT-86s, and the reasons for that are, imo, really pretty simple to understand........
You misunderstood me. Which is clearly a running trend here and i do see a pattern emerging. I also like how you only quote a small snippet of my response and not all of it. I called you a potential plonker because of the irony of your job title, along with your inability to find anything good about a modern RWD sports car made by Toyota.Let me try again:
You have, lets say around £30k to spend.
You want an 'exciting' and fast' car, but need real world practicality. Do you buy that Golf R or the GT-86. Despite you being not able to understand it, the real world has voted with their wallets, and hence you see a lot of GolfR's and very, very few GT-86s, and the reasons for that are, imo, really pretty simple to understand........
Again, you don't get it. It's not a problem but you appear to be making it one. A sports car is not about practicality, so i haven't a clue why you keep banging on about it. Want practicality with some performance? Buy a hot hatch.
Again, i like hot hatches, but i can see the separate appeal in pure driving pleasure from the GT-86 and not be too bothered about blistering performance. Only certain people want that formula in a car, the rest go and buy fast hatches instead. You can guess who buys more of the two types of car stated. But, that doesn't take anything away from the Toyota, it just caters a specific market.
Hi everyone.
My personal problem is lack of drama. Personally I couldn't care less about the straight line performance as long as it's fun and engaging in the every day traffic & b-roads. Especially the engine sounds just unpleasant. It doesn't have to be loud, I'm more after quality than quantity.
As case point, I drove today behind 156 with 2.5 busso V6. I also drove the Giulietta (2l gas version) last thursday and that really got me wondering, why noise is so underrated in the sport segment. I mean you really cannot enjoy the absolute speed during commute, but you can get your kicks out of nicely tuned engine note. The new alfa sounded like a Bamix compared to old 156. Of course things like good chassis feel & actual steering feel are also nice things, but sound is much more dominant factor.
I was left dreaming about that alfa V6 in miata chassis for remainder of my commute. That would be a mix made in heaven.
My personal problem is lack of drama. Personally I couldn't care less about the straight line performance as long as it's fun and engaging in the every day traffic & b-roads. Especially the engine sounds just unpleasant. It doesn't have to be loud, I'm more after quality than quantity.
As case point, I drove today behind 156 with 2.5 busso V6. I also drove the Giulietta (2l gas version) last thursday and that really got me wondering, why noise is so underrated in the sport segment. I mean you really cannot enjoy the absolute speed during commute, but you can get your kicks out of nicely tuned engine note. The new alfa sounded like a Bamix compared to old 156. Of course things like good chassis feel & actual steering feel are also nice things, but sound is much more dominant factor.
I was left dreaming about that alfa V6 in miata chassis for remainder of my commute. That would be a mix made in heaven.
spreadsheet monkey said:
daemon said:
Fours years on and just as it was back then really :-
Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
^^ This.Overpriced
Underpowered
Uncompetitive finance deals
The GT86 is barely advertised, and gets no selling incentives (subsidised finance deals or whatever).
It almost as if Toyota is being deliberately obtuse and doesn't want the GT86 to sell, so they can hold up their hands and say "see, we tried making a purist's RWD sports car, but no-one wanted it, so we'll just stick to flogging Aygos and Yarises."
It's a long time ago now, but I remember reading that the EP3 (breadvan) Civic Type R barely made any money for Honda at the RRP of £15,995 but it was a great advertisement for Honda's technical capabilities.
Toyota could choose to really push the GT86 if it wanted to, maybe getting a basic model out there for £19,995 or some other headline grabbing price, but instead it has chosen to keep it a small volume niche car and make an extra five grand per unit by selling only to the "purists".
And realistically, out in the franchises its about "units" sold, so again, if you're a salesman your manager wont give a monkeys if its a GT86 or a Yaris you sell, and you'll probably sell a Yaris to some old biddy in a quarter of the time and with more margin than a GT86 to some driving enthusiast who knows the discount they can expect to 2 decimal places.
Edited by daemon on Tuesday 16th May 14:30
CABC said:
stick a slice of lime in a ste Mexican beer, charge over £5 for it in a cool bar. wins the sales race hands down.
The R is the answer to the 1 car question. It is not the answer to all driving needs and desires.
Couldn't agree more. The Golf R is a perfect do-it-all car. But it's not the be all and end all. Where are the anti-Golf R brigade when you need them te Mexican beer, charge over £5 for it in a cool bar. wins the sales race hands down.The R is the answer to the 1 car question. It is not the answer to all driving needs and desires.
I love the Golf R btw, i'd love one. But, if i was looking for a sports car, which is the bit several people appear to be skipping over, it wouldn't be the Golf because, well it's a Golf. Fair enough you may not choose the GT-86 either. Either way, throwing alot of power at a Golf doesn't make it a sports car.
culpz said:
I just struggle to see how enthusiasts can't seem to find any appeal in this car at all.
I can see the appeal, no problem at all - we've bought brand new Celicas and MR2s in the past, and we last owned a 370Z GT, so we've got form and it should totally be on our radar.I just cant balance the appeal against the price and the performance.
Edited by daemon on Tuesday 16th May 14:31
MarshPhantom said:
The M3 is a thirty year old car. Things have moved on, the GT hasn't.
HTH.
I think that's the point with the GT86. It's like an older car in terms of involvement and driver feedback but doesn't have the rust and reliability issues. HTH.
Edited by ECG1000 on Tuesday 16th May 14:36
daemon said:
I can see the appeal, no problem at all - we've bought brand new Celicas and MR2s in the past, and we last owned a 370Z GT, so it should totally be on our radar.
I just cant balance the appeal against the price and the performance.
I've honestly not got a problem with that. I'm just amazed that, all of a sudden, the Golf R is now a sports car and the reason why that's the case is because they sold more and are more common that the GT-86. Of course, that's nothing to do with the super-duper cheap leases on them at all, is it? I just cant balance the appeal against the price and the performance.
I do agree that the cost of the '86 is fairly steep for what you get and they don't seem to do any attractive deals on them brand new.
ECG1000 said:
MarshPhantom said:
The M3 is a thirty year old car. Things have moved on, the GT hasn't.
HTH.
I think that's the point with the GT86. it's like an older car in terms of involvement and driver feedback but doesn't have the rust and reliability issues. HTH.
Asking people to pay nigh on £30K for a GT86 with a bit of spec is unpalatable (and clearly to a lot of people)
Worth noting what the article and everyone else fails to mention, is that the US version gets an extra 5 bhp and a shorter final drive. These do seem to make a noticeable difference to performance from what I can gather.
The EU doesn't get these (small) revisions because they couldn't meet EU6 emissions standards. Kind of puts paid to the regular cmoose drivel that everything should have an extra 0.5 litres of capacity and just be naturally aspirated
The EU doesn't get these (small) revisions because they couldn't meet EU6 emissions standards. Kind of puts paid to the regular cmoose drivel that everything should have an extra 0.5 litres of capacity and just be naturally aspirated
Max_Torque said:
And the boxer layout is also why the engine is so lame (both in terms of BMEP and sounds) because it's not possible to leverage exhaust tuning from 4 cyls (because the heads are about 3 foot apart!))
You're aware that there are several tuning companies who have been quite successful in offering tuning/exhaust packages for the GT86?I myself am considering a new exhaust manifold and dyno tune instead of replacing the car, as there's not a lot else on the market that really excites me at the moment. The actual power gains might not be huge, but there has been a lot of success in rectifying two of the biggest complaints people have with the engine - the flat mid range and the rather dull noise when it's pushed hard.
Max_Torque said:
er, it really isn't you know. If they did a RS version or something then maybe, but as std, it's a fairly mundane, pretty low powered road car.
When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
Because I don't want to drive a hatchback?When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
I don't really care about outright performance - I want a modern car that's fun to drive, and "feels" special. A Golf hatchback with big wheels and 4 exhausts my well wipe the floor with the GT86, but it just does nothing for me. Also, I've read a few accounts of people who've driven both the Golf R and the GT86 who say the latter is just a more rewarding and engaging drive, despite being much less technically capable. That is worth more to me personally, so yes, I'll take the average sports car over the hatchback thanks.
jayemdoubleu said:
The problem with the GT86 is a lack of practicality rules it out as an every day car, and it's not special enough to be an occasional car.
I'll admit if your idea of practicality is regular tip runs or ferrying multiple kids around, it's not ideal. But I've owned mine for almost 4 years now, and it's more than comfortable and practical enough for all my daily driving. And yet it's still rewarding enough that I will actively get up at half 5 on a Sunday morning just to go for a drive 
Don't get me wrong, I understand it's not for everyone, but it's unfair to make statements like yours in such a blanket way in my opinion.
Edited by Conscript on Tuesday 16th May 14:43
daemon said:
To me, i can "suffer" the performance if the price is right relative to that performance.
Asking people to pay nigh on £30K for a GT86 with a bit of spec is unpalatable (and clearly to a lot of people)
I agree £30k is far too much for an '86/BRZ. However, you can pay £16-£17k for one that 18 months old with around 15k on the clock with plenty left of the 5 year warranty.Asking people to pay nigh on £30K for a GT86 with a bit of spec is unpalatable (and clearly to a lot of people)
Edited by ECG1000 on Tuesday 16th May 14:41
I can't help but feel that if we, as a nation, were still in the midst of the Max Power era, there'd be GT86's everywhere...
I think the attitude toward modified cars in the UK is such that we really aren't the target market for the car, hence why we never got the budget JDM one that comes pre-stripped of the expensive parts (as they're likely to be coming off anyway);
You only have to look at the comments underneath the Cosworth supercharged BRZ that appeared on here as the YKYWT not long ago to prove that the UK really doesn't understand this car. Yes the factory example might be considered a bit wet to some, but as far as I knew - that was the whole point. You modded it along the way to get it how you wanted it? - With the amount of references to aftermarket tuning and the AE86 that cropped up in interviews with engineers during the development of the GT86, I thought that was a given?
I think the attitude toward modified cars in the UK is such that we really aren't the target market for the car, hence why we never got the budget JDM one that comes pre-stripped of the expensive parts (as they're likely to be coming off anyway);
You only have to look at the comments underneath the Cosworth supercharged BRZ that appeared on here as the YKYWT not long ago to prove that the UK really doesn't understand this car. Yes the factory example might be considered a bit wet to some, but as far as I knew - that was the whole point. You modded it along the way to get it how you wanted it? - With the amount of references to aftermarket tuning and the AE86 that cropped up in interviews with engineers during the development of the GT86, I thought that was a given?
daemon said:
Nor is a Toyota GT86. Its not part of the answer for most people to a 2 or 3 car question either. Therein lies its problem.
that's a better argument. Not sure who was arguing it was a family daily?? luckily it's not 1 of 3 for me either.It's the R that's the exceptionally good DD, just that it's not a sports car and doesn't feel like one when you drive it. Maybe people who have it as their only car are the delusional ones as most 86 owners posts i read recognise that car's compromises?
Conscript said:
And yet it's still rewarding enough that I will actively get up at half 5 on a Sunday morning just to go for a drive
Surely that's it in a nutshell ?Edited by Conscript on Tuesday 16th May 14:43
And since when was 200BHP not enough ? I've seen enough cars come and go with limited torque and power that is only accessible at high rpm, and the verdict is generally the same - too demanding for people used to low RPM turbodiesel type torque delivery, but far more involving for people who are prepared to keep it at high rpm.
On paper it seems really desirable.
(Don't quite understand the CoG issue as it can't be much different fron an Alfasud or a Porsche Boxster)
Max_Torque said:
er, it really isn't you know. If they did a RS version or something then maybe, but as std, it's a fairly mundane, pretty low powered road car.
When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
I must be getting old. This is exactly where we were in the late '80s. I guess the difference then was the ‘average sports car’, hadn’t moved on for a decade, and it took Mazda to shake things up.When you can get a Golf R on finance that is, imo, a better steer than the -86, is so much faster it's not even funny, and you can seat 5 people with a decent sized boot, that's why you can't move for GolfR's but hardly ever see a -86....... In effect the modern Hot Hatch has killed the low cost 'everyday' sports car market. These hot hatches are so good and fit so well with most peoples lives, why would you want an average sports car?
spreadsheet monkey said:
The GT86 is barely advertised, and gets no selling incentives (subsidised finance deals or whatever).
They ran a TV advert for a short while, but it was banned for making the car look like it might be fun to drive.In other markets Toyota run single make race series for the GT86. This seems like good targeted advertising to reach enthusiasts. Perhaps they look at the UK market and just don’t see us being very receptive.
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