RE: The Toyota GT86 is more relevant than ever: TMIW

[anonymous-user]

The things we KNOW:

1) the dash86/BRZ is not a big seller.


So, what are the reasons for this? I think they include all the following:


1) Not fast enough for the price / looks

2) Not practical enough compared to the (increasingly brilliant) hot hatch alternative

3) Not quite special enough for true enthusiasts who want a 'proper' sports car, and are willing to perhaps go to the s/h market to get what they want (s/h cayman/ 370z etc etc)



So, to buy a new dash86/BRZ you have to be the following person:

1) Not too worried about value for money
2) Wanting a new car rather than a second hand one
3) Not too worried about relative performance
4) Wanting very very good handling above everything else (so an mx-5 won't quite cut it)


Now people who fit those ^^ requirements do exist, but currently they are very few in number, and as a result, sales volumes are very low indeed. If you ARE one of those people, congratulations, luckily you can still buy cars like this. You are not 'wrong' or 'crazy' or whatever, just individual....... ;-)

[CABC]

p35 of this everlasting thread got a lot more interesting, comparing the 86 and mx5. both great cars, so we're spoilt for choice.
But the thread is back on (off) track. Repetitive.
@Daemon - why do you care so much??

[300bhp/ton]

daemon said:

its a low slung coupe with "look at me" looks. But it doesnt have the performance to back that up. IMHO anyway.

And thats a common criticism, so dont shoot the messenger.

But it's your criticism surely?? So there is no messenger

IMO - it's not really that low slung, nor are it's looks all that shouty. It's no more "look at me" than a Ford Cougar or Celica.

[

daemon said:

2. Because relative to even supermini based hot hatches like a Fiesta ST, it struggles with outright grunt. Also, a half decent 2.0TD rep mobile will give it a run for its money. I personally want a faster car if its a low slung coupe.

I don't have an issue with you wanting a faster car... you just seem completely hung up on almost all your posts moaning about the GT86 in this regards. Surely if speed is so important to you, you are simply looking at the wrong car?

I wanted a "fast" car. I bought a 5.7 litre Camaro, because it was pretty much the fastest thing that I could buy for my money at the time. However I have also bought a smart Roadster, which is not fast at all in a straight line.... but it didn't matter one single bit.

As for the Fiesta ST, a quick Google seems to suggest it's actually a fair chunk slower than the GT86 to 100mph. And anyhow, isn't this the thing with hatchbacks? A MK1 or 2 Golf GTI was plenty quick enough to upset a Datsun 260z or MK1 MR2 back in the day. Just as a Civic Type R EP3 would have really annoyed a Subaru Impreza WRX 20-80mph....

[

daemon said:

3. I've done so already - 140i M Sport can be bought for similar money, 370Z can be bought for similar money, MX5 offers similar "fun" for £,£££s less. Then you''re in to the realms of well if you're spending say £25K on one, would you walk past a used Cayman to buy one?

As I've said many times since 2012, I think the GT86 is over priced for the UK market. But you don't seem to be comparing direct like for like.

The 370z is more GT and 2 seat, so you trade different talents. Saying the GT86 is too slow is like moaning the 370z has too few seats.

Maybe the reality is, the type of car you want simply doesn't exist at the price point you want to pay. Or at least not a new car. But that isn't really the GT86's fault.

I mean, if it cost £19k instead of £27k, would you suddenly be ok and happy with its power and performance? My hunch would be no.


[

daemon said:

And yes, refer me back to Chris Harris's review if you like but even he says during that review "its not that fast, people who want performance are going to be disappointed"

I like Chris Harris, but like most motoring Journo's I think his views are wildly out of touch with reality. Lets face it, if you get to race cars semi-professoinally and drive things like the Ferrari FXX K regularly, then your sense of speed and performance are going to be seriously biased.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 1st June 13:51

[Blayney]

Max_Torque said:

The things we KNOW:

1) the dash86/BRZ is not a big seller.

100k globally in first 2 years of sale, remarkably similar to when the MX-5 launched.

[daemon]

Blayney said:

Max_Torque said:

The things we KNOW:

1) the dash86/BRZ is not a big seller.

100k globally in first 2 years of sale, remarkably similar to when the MX-5 launched.

"In the uk" is the missing subtext.

Interestingly it sells well in markets where it's more competitively priced....

[daemon]

CABC said:

Repetitive.
@Daemon - why do you care so much??

I don't.

I made my point and was happy to leave it that.

Then I get accused of wking over 0-60 times, so I responded to that

Then I get accused of being ridiculous, banal, wrong, not getting it, stupid, etc etc.

I've only been responding back to that since

I get that some people love them and it's perfect for them from their perspective. That doesn't make them wrong.

People have different perspectives.

It's not perfect for me frpm my perspective but somehow I'm wrong????



There is a strong view that it's too expensive, which I agree with.

There is a strong view that it's not fast enough relative to the price, which I agree with.

Those views are not uncommon, and are borne out by low uk sales where market price has been set artificially high.

[daemon]

Max_Torque said:

The things we KNOW:

1) the dash86/BRZ is not a big seller.


So, what are the reasons for this? I think they include all the following:


1) Not fast enough for the price / looks

2) Not practical enough compared to the (increasingly brilliant) hot hatch alternative

3) Not quite special enough for true enthusiasts who want a 'proper' sports car, and are willing to perhaps go to the s/h market to get what they want (s/h cayman/ 370z etc etc)



So, to buy a new dash86/BRZ you have to be the following person:

1) Not too worried about value for money
2) Wanting a new car rather than a second hand one
3) Not too worried about relative performance
4) Wanting very very good handling above everything else (so an mx-5 won't quite cut it)


Now people who fit those ^^ requirements do exist, but currently they are very few in number, and as a result, sales volumes are very low indeed. If you ARE one of those people, congratulations, luckily you can still buy cars like this. You are not 'wrong' or 'crazy' or whatever, just individual....... ;-)

+1


Wholly agree

[daemon]

300bhp/ton said:

I assume you think the current entry level Elise is a bit of a waste of time too? It's only fractionally faster, but even more low slung and even more money.

As our primary car, no it wouldnt match our requirements, no. This doesnt seem difficult? At £28K for a brand new, modern car to be driven daily, no i wouldnt want to be driving an entry level Elise.

300bhp/ton said:

And you must totally hate classic performance cars. Lotus Esprit, Excel. TVR 350... maybe even a Ferrari 308.

As an every day primary car, then yes, they would be unsuitable. As a classic car, they would tick different boxes and different requirements.

Having driven an Esprit, no i wouldnt want to drive one every day. Would you?

300bhp/ton said:

They are all a rather similar 'ballpark' figures for the 0-60mph times as the GT86 does.

Correct. But i wouldnt want a GT86 as a weekend / third / classic car. Would you? It wouldnt meet my requirements for a weekend / third / classic car.

300bhp/ton said:

And more recent, Mk3 MR2, MGTF 160, MK3 MX-5. Even an Integra DC5! All rather similar performance or slower than the GT86 and all usually accepted as more than fast enough for fun or even to be called performance cars here on PH.

Correct! All great cars in their own right, at the right time. Now pretty much considered classics or cars to be driven at the weekend.

A GT86 new at £28K for 99.9% of people is a primary, every day car. It does not tick my boxes for what i require for that. Nor does it as a classic.

[daemon]

300bhp/ton said:

I mean, if it cost £19k instead of £27k, would you suddenly be ok and happy with its power and performance? My hunch would be no.

Yay!

The penny has dropped. Yes - i would!

Its too expensive for the price point. At £19,995 say, it would sell by the bucketload - as it does in other markets

[300bhp/ton]

@daemon

lol

You seem to be dodging the questions very well.

I did not know we are talking about a daily. However all your criticism has been at its power, performance and specifically 0-60mph times. Yet in your above reply you totally ignore all of that and seem to accept that for a weekend car, 200hp would be fine (you didn't say it, but implied it).

You did however avoid the questions on performance.

And as for the £19k price.... again you dodged the question. I asked if you'd be happy. Not if it would sell to others.

Anyhow, doesn't really matter. As I've already said and others to you. Obviously the GT86 is the wrong car for you. I guess the next step is for you to agree with this, that way you can move on

[daemon]

300bhp/ton said:

@daemon

lol

You seem to be dodging the questions very well.

Not at all. You seem to have not been reading my answers though.

300bhp/ton said:

I did not know we are talking about a daily.

Ah right, so you ASSUMED? Even though i was saying, for my particular requirements, from my perspective, for what i want it for, you ASSUMED? Whats the old adage about ASSUME?

I would imagine most people who drop or consider dropping £28K on one are doing so for it to be their daily driver. What made you ASSUME otherwise of me and my requirements?

Actually how many times have i used the word "perspective"?? Clearly from your perspective it may be an option - given your fleet and running an older car as a DD.

Everyones perspective is different, so why is mine wrong and yours right?

300bhp/ton said:

However all your criticism has been at its power, performance and specifically 0-60mph times.

Relative to its price, and to what i require of it - which i've said many many times, yes. Please re-read that sentence again until it sinks in.

300bhp/ton said:

Yet in your above reply you totally ignore all of that and seem to accept that for a weekend car, 200hp would be fine (you didn't say it, but implied it).

Yup and i did effectively say that some pages back - i'm planning on buying a Clio RS 200 later in the year for a third // weekend car. Its a 2012 one, low miles, Cup edition. Relative to its price, its a performance bargain.

Like many people - i have different requirements for a car depending on what i need it for / what i want it for. For example, the criteria we applied when buying the A45 (our main car) was clearly NOT the same as the criteria we applied when buying the Passat TDI (our car for long family runs and economy). Likewise the criteria would again be different for the weekend / hobby car - I've had a Clio 172, 197, VW Caddy 2.8 VR6 van, Mercedes C350 coupe, Porsche Boxster, MG ZT v6, various MX5s, various MR2s, a Celica, several Jags, etc over the last few years to name but a few.

I would have thought that was common practice? Was the problem for you that you ASSUMED my requirements and particular perspective?

300bhp/ton said:

You did however avoid the questions on performance.

And as for the £19k price.... again you dodged the question. I asked if you'd be happy. Not if it would sell to others.

I'm not sure if i could have been more direct - you asked "If it cost £19k instead of £27k, would you suddenly be ok and happy with its power and performance?" and i replied "Yes - i would!"

Maybe you need to spend less time being outraged on the internet and read peoples replies?

300bhp/ton said:

Anyhow, doesn't really matter. As I've already said and others to you. Obviously the GT86 is the wrong car for you. I guess the next step is for you to agree with this, that way you can move on

Agreed - i've said that from the very start - its not the car for me as it doesnt meet my particular requirements and from my perspective? I dont think i could have been clearer?

It just surprises me that so many people seem outraged by that? I mean - imagine - someone having a different perspective and requirements than them! Oh the Humanity!!

I'm not and have not said those who love them are wrong - it is the correct car for them from their perspective, i just dont think its for me.

I have however committed to taking one for a weekend when the A45 (our main car) is up for replacement probably in a couple of years time.

Again if you'd taken the time to actually read my posts instead of finding reasons to be aggravated on the internet, you'd know all this....

Edited by daemon on Thursday 1st June 18:36

[irish boy]

daemon said:

Agreed - i've said that from the very start - its not the car for me as it doesnt meet my particular requirements and from my perspective? I dont think i could have been clearer?

It just surprises me that so many people seem outraged by that? I mean - imagine - someone having a different perspective and requirements than them! Oh the Humanity!!

I'm not and have not said those who love them are wrong - it is the correct car for them from their perspective, i just dont think its for me.

I have however committed to taking one for a weekend when the A45 (our main car) is up for replacement probably in a couple of years time.

Again if you'd taken the time to actually read my posts, you'd know all this....

Some past garage there daemon. We have similar tastes (apart from the gt86...which I would buy )

Where do you live? I'm Moira.

[daemon]

irish boy said:

Some past garage there daemon. We have similar tastes (apart from the gt86...which I would buy )

Where do you live? I'm Moira.

Hey hey. Lurgan originally then Waringstown, now Armagh / Newry direction.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 1st June 18:14

[daemon]

300bhp/ton said:

That for me is the issue too.

I think it's a fab car in principle. But in the UK it starts at £27k with no options selected.

It should be competing with the hot hatches IMO. A MINI Cooper starts at £16.2k an S for a little more and things like a Fiesta ST all well under £20k.

£27k requires a fairly hefty deposit to get sensible monthly payments. And frankly for that money I'd rather have used something else. Corvette, Mustang, Porsche, Lotus, etc etc

Now if it was priced at £18k, well that's a different story.

So what happened you in less than two weeks since you posted the above???

I'm WHOLLY with you that its too expensive, and WHOLLY with you that it needs to be under £20K

[daemon]

300bhp/ton said:

I can't confirm all the prices, but yes, as I've said many times before on PH. I believe the GT86/BRZ are too expensive in the UK market.

The GT86 starts at £27k.

The MX-5 starts at £19k albeit for the smaller engine. But even a loaded 2.0 MX-5 is £24k

That's a big price difference IMO.

And to buy the GT86 over the MX-5, well even if priced the same, you'd have to really want the GT86. As in want a coupe with the 2+2 seating... which again I can see the appeal of. But for a 'fun' vehicle the MX-5 delivers, just with less practicality.

The price difference however doesn't even make them direct competitors IMO.

And again, from 17th May.

But i'm a monster for suggesting its too expensive???

[RBH58]

Pricing explains a lot. This is a price comparison of the driveaway price of a bunch of "sporty RWD cars" in Australia with AUD, GBP & EUR prices...

GT86 (16" wheels basic spec).......................AUD37,000 GBP20,979 EUR24,679
GT86/BRZ (top spec)......................................AUD43,000 GBP24,381 EUR28,681
Abarth 124 (Bremboed with Vis Package)..AUD47,000 GBP26,649 EUR31,349
MX5 GT 1.5 ST................................................AUD42,000 GBP23,814 EUR28,014
MX5 GT 2.0 ST................................................AUD46,000 GBP26,082 EUR30,682
MX5 GT 2.0 RF Black Roof (Top spec).........AUD50,000 GBP28,350 EUR33,350
370Z................................................................AUD65,000 GBP36,855 EUR43,355
Lotus Elise SC.................................................AUD90,000 GBP51,030 EUR60,030
Alfa Romeo 4C (Coupe with Sports Pack)..AUD100,000 GBP56,700 EUR66,700

Australia is the 3rd largest 86/BRZ market in the world (after the USA & Japan). I swear that they are nearly as common as Camrys. But 6 times the amount of MX5s have been sold in the UK compared to Australia (UK population is 2.7 times Australia's).

Also, the Abarth 124, criticised for being too expensive in the UK is about line ball with an MX5 2.0 GT ST here.

Elises and 4Cs are bloody expensive here, and also have rock solid residuals!

Edited by RBH58 on Friday 2nd June 04:17

[doogle83]

I want a 2+2 though for occasional child carrying duty so what are my options? (I don't want a hot hatch).

[RBH58]

doogle83 said:

I want a 2+2 though for occasional child carrying duty so what are my options? (I don't want a hot hatch).

2-Series

Probably a 230i M-Sport as a special factory order manual. the most criminally underrated car in BMW's line up.

Edited by RBH58 on Friday 2nd June 14:12

[otolith]

doogle83 said:

I want a 2+2 though for occasional child carrying duty so what are my options? (I don't want a hot hatch).

Well, for only £500 more than the top spec GT86, you could have a bottom of the range Audi TT with the 180ps engine, no options and flat paint. OK, it's just a hatchback platform underneath, and it's got less power, but its turbocharged with a flat torque curve so you won't have to get too involved in driving it, it will have loads of grip, and being German it is in no way too expensive or sporty looking for the performance. And there's probably a competitive finance package.

[M-SportMatt]

Joining this late.

My thoughts are that they appeal, but as a practical every day car not really as im married with a child on the way.

As a weekend car, too pricey, can have a used MX5/Boxter/350z/370z or similar for a LOT less

Its not fast enough. Only last night on the way home from work I had one up my tailpipe on a bit of DC, I pulled in to take a slip, he then barrels past and forces his way in in front of me so as we both pull off the slip at around 35-40mph onto another DC I can see him itching to make progress but I get over to the right first and let him have it full throttle, so a side by side rolling start and he's left trailing by a good margin........in my 5 year old 320d with roofbars and bike on top, auto, not in sport mode.

I'd have thought he'd have been able to muster a better effort.

If its that slow and all about slightly undertyred fun i'd rather an MX-5 with a hardtop thanks