Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
sgtbash said:
My Fiesta ST has plenty of character.
I don't deny it's a good car, but does it? As in, can you define anything about it that gives it character?I still believe character comes from being interesting or quirky. Its the 'something' that you like or relate to or maybe even loath.
For example, the Mini was pretty much the first of it's line, very unique styling, quirky side on radiator, funny little boot flap with the tiny spare wheel and tiny 10" rims. The big prominent gutter and the very distinct driving position. Add in the fact it also happens to look visually brilliant.
And that's the thing really, all Mini's have character, not just the quicker ones. In fact it's not even the engine or the performance that gives them the character.
The Fiesta ST is a very good hot hatch, but remove the engine and it's just a bland hatchback. There really is nothing interesting with the lower end models. The ST is only interesting because of it's speed. But I'm not sure that is enough to really say it's a characterful car.
300bhp/ton said:
The Fiesta ST is a very good hot hatch, but remove the engine and it's just a bland hatchback. There really is nothing interesting with the lower end models.
Have you driven one?I've got the 100bhp Ecoboost and I'd say it's got character. It's a brilliant little three-cylinder engine, handles amazingly well and (to my eye) looks good too.
All subjective of course but I like it a lot more than I originally thought I would.
Depends what you define as character.
I have a short drive to my office and my M4 manages to put a smile on my face everyday.
My AM V8V (often described as having soul and character) although looked and sounded nice was a complete and utter pain in the arse and in the end I good very bored of the issues I had with. Performance was not that great even compared to hot hatches, so is that a characterful car?
My M4, get's me to work, is great fun to drive, has excellent performance, great kit and does everything I need from a car a plus more. It might sound like a taxi, but it does get some admiring comments too.
To me that is great character.
I have a short drive to my office and my M4 manages to put a smile on my face everyday.
My AM V8V (often described as having soul and character) although looked and sounded nice was a complete and utter pain in the arse and in the end I good very bored of the issues I had with. Performance was not that great even compared to hot hatches, so is that a characterful car?
My M4, get's me to work, is great fun to drive, has excellent performance, great kit and does everything I need from a car a plus more. It might sound like a taxi, but it does get some admiring comments too.
To me that is great character.
Perhaps one way to look at it...
The later the accountants get involved in the design process then the more character the car has
So as most modern/mass produced cars are designed by soulless corporations within strict financial parameters to cater to the masses, therefore they don't have much 'character'. Whereas someone who designs a car first and then worries about the money will probably create one with character.
Cars which are inherently flawed could also be argued to have character, think Basil Fawlty's Austin or any old French car
The later the accountants get involved in the design process then the more character the car has
So as most modern/mass produced cars are designed by soulless corporations within strict financial parameters to cater to the masses, therefore they don't have much 'character'. Whereas someone who designs a car first and then worries about the money will probably create one with character.Cars which are inherently flawed could also be argued to have character, think Basil Fawlty's Austin or any old French car
I would add that modern cars which are produced to have the maximum number of parts to be recycled will lack character as they will naturally disappear quickly.
The car makers are winning because they are seen as environment-friendly, and they make money in the after markets as a lof of the parts are to be changed after a few years.
The car makers are winning because they are seen as environment-friendly, and they make money in the after markets as a lof of the parts are to be changed after a few years.
MorganP104 said:
I reckon this nails it. "Back in the day" (pick a decade), cars varied wildly in terms of quality, driveability, and safety.
These days, the vast majority of new cars have quality nailed, most are pretty good to drive, and will invariably achieve 4 or 5 star NCAP ratings.
This doesn't necessarily mean they have less "character" than cars of yesteryear, it simply means they are more similar to each other these days, leading to feelings that "everything's bland and samey".
I like to walk the "modern classics" path - aside from the obvious price benefits of buying older metal, such cars generally come equipped with all the stuff I want (remote central locking, electric windows, air conditioning, etc.), yet also have a modicum of "character", by sheer dint of being conceived in a different era.
i'd like to take your reasonable post and develop it.... These days, the vast majority of new cars have quality nailed, most are pretty good to drive, and will invariably achieve 4 or 5 star NCAP ratings.
This doesn't necessarily mean they have less "character" than cars of yesteryear, it simply means they are more similar to each other these days, leading to feelings that "everything's bland and samey".
I like to walk the "modern classics" path - aside from the obvious price benefits of buying older metal, such cars generally come equipped with all the stuff I want (remote central locking, electric windows, air conditioning, etc.), yet also have a modicum of "character", by sheer dint of being conceived in a different era.
Cars today obliterate cars from the past in quality and technical performance (speed and grip). But where i find life frustrating is in realising every time i get into a modern car how the design focus was mostly legislative, and maybe marketing driven, but rarely for driving pleasure.
Gear ratios that are way too high, gadgets everywhere along with weight, suspension over firm because 'sports' but appalling ride and no feel. Modern engineers could deliver so much fun but aren't allowed too. Driving for pleasure is not what the market wants, and not what most posters on ph want. Japs at least pursue modest fun cars.
Zetec-S said:
20-30 years ago people probably complained that modern cars like the E36 M3, RS Cosworth, Skyline, etc had no character, and they longed for more cars like the MG Midget, Triumph Dolomite, Austin-Healey...
I don't remember them being criticised for lack of character but there were plenty of other gripes levelled at theme21Mark said:
If they did, I don't remember it. 
E36 M3 - not a proper M-car, not a racer, more a cruiser - should be a 330CSi ( as some within BMW wanted )
RS Cosworth - too fast for a lowly Ford, too dangerous for the average man in the street.
Skyline R32 - too easy to drive fast, average Joe can be as fast as a Porsche test driver etc
I think the big difference back then in the early 90s was that the Internet was quite rare so maybe not as much exposure to all the above 'concerns'
SidewaysSi said:
Max_Torque said:
Sa Calobra said:
The Golf R has recording of engine noises that you play.
Cringeworthy
Do you understand why this is so?Cringeworthy
Hint, how happy would you be to have cars blasting past your bedroom window at 2am with noisy blaring exhausts and intakes? I sodding bet you'd be the first to start a thread titled "bl**dy boy races keeping us wake" or whatever! So, the EU and other law makers have, sensibly, decided to put in place laws that limit the amount of noise a car can make in order to get a better standard of living for everyone. The side effect, from these quieter cars is that in order to give some feedback to the driver in 'sporty' models, that is now best done via secondary methods (be that ducting intake noise to sounders on the bulkhead, or by playing stuff through the speakers etc). Why that should be "cringeworthy" i fail to see. Sounds like (sic) a clever solution to me.........
Cars have in general become pretty dull and boring - in some ways I pity the jobs of vehicle engineers these days. Having to cater for the masses and work around regulation must be the source of frustration for many an engineer.
You might was well add a fake boost gauge.
BigMon said:
Have you driven one?
I've got the 100bhp Ecoboost and I'd say it's got character. It's a brilliant little three-cylinder engine, handles amazingly well and (to my eye) looks good too.
All subjective of course but I like it a lot more than I originally thought I would.
They handle broadly similar to any small hatchback, be it a Pug 106, Corsa, Swift or whatever. They also have a similar grey interior and at 100 yards have a profile that would make picking them out of a line up very difficult. I've got the 100bhp Ecoboost and I'd say it's got character. It's a brilliant little three-cylinder engine, handles amazingly well and (to my eye) looks good too.
All subjective of course but I like it a lot more than I originally thought I would.
A very good, capable and competitive hatchback in a busy sector. However none of this is character inducing. It's all too "ordinary" and nothing individual enough to stand above or below the crowd.
s m said:
Zetec-S said:
20-30 years ago people probably complained that modern cars like the E36 M3, RS Cosworth, Skyline, etc had no character, and they longed for more cars like the MG Midget, Triumph Dolomite, Austin-Healey...
I don't remember them being criticised for lack of character but there were plenty of other gripes levelled at theme21Mark said:
If they did, I don't remember it.
E36 M3 - not a proper M-car, not a racer, more a cruiser - should be a 330CSi ( as some within BMW wanted )
RS Cosworth - too fast for a lowly Ford, too dangerous for the average man in the street.
Skyline R32 - too easy to drive fast, average Joe can be as fast as a Porsche test driver etc
I think the big difference back then in the early 90s was that the Internet was quite rare so maybe not as much exposure to all the above 'concerns'
DoubleD said:
I know of a fantastic easy option if you dont like modern mass produced cars......buy an old car as your daily and stop worrying about new cars.
And that is what I have done for many years as I think 1990-2000 was the best time for cars.The problem is there are getting fewer and fewer of them and the price for good ones keeps going up and rust is getting an issue, so I wonder about buying a technically "better" newer car and I find that they are still dull and can throw horrendous bills and I wander back to my old cars.
Just bought an IS200 with an LS400 engine stuffed in - that isn't dull, nor quiet...
Nor economical
V8RX7 said:
DoubleD said:
I know of a fantastic easy option if you dont like modern mass produced cars......buy an old car as your daily and stop worrying about new cars.
And that is what I have done for many years as I think 1990-2000 was the best time for cars.A bit like music can be.
DoubleD said:
V8RX7 said:
DoubleD said:
I know of a fantastic easy option if you dont like modern mass produced cars......buy an old car as your daily and stop worrying about new cars.
And that is what I have done for many years as I think 1990-2000 was the best time for cars.A bit like music can be.
I grew up with manual, RWD with no ABS or traction control and that's how I like it - ME driving
av185 said:
Turbos are the problem.
Drive a 981 Porsche or an e 90 92 M3 and all will become clear.
Good investment too.
I tend to agree about NA vs Turbos but I think this is a fault of most stock, drive by wire, throttle maps rather than turbocharging per se. In my experience, and from reading others' comments about well developed aftermarket maps, turbocharging is not the limiting factor. BMW's 1M was fairly entertaining, a mapped S3, Cupra R, Edition 30 golf engine is apparently great. Skyline engines have never been dull. etc etc etc.Drive a 981 Porsche or an e 90 92 M3 and all will become clear.
Good investment too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHRK5bJ6nPw 1.30 onwards
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