Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
I don't deny it's a good car, but does it? As in, can you define anything about it that gives it character?
I still believe character comes from being interesting or quirky. Its the 'something' that you like or relate to or maybe even loath.
For example, the Mini was pretty much the first of it's line, very unique styling, quirky side on radiator, funny little boot flap with the tiny spare wheel and tiny 10" rims. The big prominent gutter and the very distinct driving position. Add in the fact it also happens to look visually brilliant.
And that's the thing really, all Mini's have character, not just the quicker ones. In fact it's not even the engine or the performance that gives them the character.
The Fiesta ST is a very good hot hatch, but remove the engine and it's just a bland hatchback. There really is nothing interesting with the lower end models. The ST is only interesting because of it's speed. But I'm not sure that is enough to really say it's a characterful car.
A car having character is simply an opinion. One that differs from one person to the next. It's unfair for you to challenge what someone else is saying here, but you can have a different outlook, by all means. I don't particularly agree with your view on what character is, but that's the great thing about having an opinion. It's all subjective.I still believe character comes from being interesting or quirky. Its the 'something' that you like or relate to or maybe even loath.
For example, the Mini was pretty much the first of it's line, very unique styling, quirky side on radiator, funny little boot flap with the tiny spare wheel and tiny 10" rims. The big prominent gutter and the very distinct driving position. Add in the fact it also happens to look visually brilliant.
And that's the thing really, all Mini's have character, not just the quicker ones. In fact it's not even the engine or the performance that gives them the character.
The Fiesta ST is a very good hot hatch, but remove the engine and it's just a bland hatchback. There really is nothing interesting with the lower end models. The ST is only interesting because of it's speed. But I'm not sure that is enough to really say it's a characterful car.
I'd argue that the MK7 Fiesta ST has bags of character. When i drove one, it felt special inside and out. The driving experience was brilliant and it was just sheer fun. It really recaptured the essence of the old-school hot hatchback, while having all the modern mod cons for daily driving. It's a perfect blend of old a new. It doesn't have all the daft driving modes and such that most of these new cars are forced with. You just get in it and go and it certainly does go!
In fact, the standard Fiesta is a great little car and has lots of character on it's own. I've driven my fair share of them and they're just a pleasant drive. I've always liked and admired them in standard form. The Zetec and Ecoboost engines are very eager and zingy. They're great little cars and the ST just develops it further and makes it into something faster and sharper. Even the Zetec S cars, now named ST-Line, are great and still handle a perform very well for a small hatchback.
Crackie said:
I tend to agree about NA vs Turbos but I think this is a fault of most stock, drive by wire, throttle maps rather than turbocharging per se. Skyline engines have never been dull. etc etc etc.
Bit late to the party on this but I can confirm by RB25DET is far from dull and love ever drive, that doesn't mean to say I don't love a great N/A engine 
V8RX7 said:
And that is what I have done for many years as I think 1990-2000 was the best time for cars.
The problem is there are getting fewer and fewer of them and the price for good ones keeps going up and rust is getting an issue, so I wonder about buying a technically "better" newer car and I find that they are still dull and can throw horrendous bills and I wander back to my old cars.
Just bought an IS200 with an LS400 engine stuffed in - that isn't dull, nor quiet...
Nor economical
The problem is there are getting fewer and fewer of them and the price for good ones keeps going up and rust is getting an issue, so I wonder about buying a technically "better" newer car and I find that they are still dull and can throw horrendous bills and I wander back to my old cars.
Just bought an IS200 with an LS400 engine stuffed in - that isn't dull, nor quiet...
Nor economical
Agree with the above in terms of times but I know there are alot of dross around too from that period, my first car was a 91 205 GRD and I had a look at one the other day because I had rose tinted specs on but in reality looking at the spindly pillars I'd be vaporised if anything modern hit me
Leins said:
s m said:
Zetec-S said:
20-30 years ago people probably complained that modern cars like the E36 M3, RS Cosworth, Skyline, etc had no character, and they longed for more cars like the MG Midget, Triumph Dolomite, Austin-Healey...
I don't remember them being criticised for lack of character but there were plenty of other gripes levelled at theme21Mark said:
If they did, I don't remember it.
E36 M3 - not a proper M-car, not a racer, more a cruiser - should be a 330CSi ( as some within BMW wanted )
RS Cosworth - too fast for a lowly Ford, too dangerous for the average man in the street.
Skyline R32 - too easy to drive fast, average Joe can be as fast as a Porsche test driver etc
I think the big difference back then in the early 90s was that the Internet was quite rare so maybe not as much exposure to all the above 'concerns'
DoubleD said:
I know of a fantastic easy option if you dont like modern mass produced cars......buy an old car as your daily and stop worrying about new cars.
I've got a 1990 318is as my daily and it does everything I could ask of it. It's cheap to run and insure too. It even has windows that go up and down by simply pushing a button! It doesn't have blue teeth though, so I stuck with the good old C60's. My sons don't know what C60, C90 etc are though. culpz said:
A car having character is simply an opinion. One that differs from one person to the next. It's unfair for you to challenge what someone else is saying here, but you can have a different outlook, by all means. I don't particularly agree with your view on what character is, but that's the great thing about having an opinion. It's all subjective.
I'd argue that the MK7 Fiesta ST has bags of character. When i drove one, it felt special inside and out. The driving experience was brilliant and it was just sheer fun. It really recaptured the essence of the old-school hot hatchback, while having all the modern mod cons for daily driving. It's a perfect blend of old a new. It doesn't have all the daft driving modes and such that most of these new cars are forced with. You just get in it and go and it certainly does go!
In fact, the standard Fiesta is a great little car and has lots of character on it's own. I've driven my fair share of them and they're just a pleasant drive. I've always liked and admired them in standard form. The Zetec and Ecoboost engines are very eager and zingy. They're great little cars and the ST just develops it further and makes it into something faster and sharper. Even the Zetec S cars, now named ST-Line, are great and still handle a perform very well for a small hatchback.
It's good we all have opinions I'd argue that the MK7 Fiesta ST has bags of character. When i drove one, it felt special inside and out. The driving experience was brilliant and it was just sheer fun. It really recaptured the essence of the old-school hot hatchback, while having all the modern mod cons for daily driving. It's a perfect blend of old a new. It doesn't have all the daft driving modes and such that most of these new cars are forced with. You just get in it and go and it certainly does go!
In fact, the standard Fiesta is a great little car and has lots of character on it's own. I've driven my fair share of them and they're just a pleasant drive. I've always liked and admired them in standard form. The Zetec and Ecoboost engines are very eager and zingy. They're great little cars and the ST just develops it further and makes it into something faster and sharper. Even the Zetec S cars, now named ST-Line, are great and still handle a perform very well for a small hatchback.
However all you've done is tell me about performance, i.e. Speed and handling. I can't see anything that amounts to character. Not saying an engine can't provide it. But it would likely have to be something more than a run of the mill mass market compact power plants intended for the low end of the market.
I passed my test in 1971 and people have been moaning about modern cars of any era being dull compared to their predecessors. It is often exactly the same with music , where many people's tastes become stuck to the time when they were 16- 23 - 'it all sounds the same now ....'
The truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
But if . like OP , I find a Cayman dull then it's time to find another interest I'd suggest .
The truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
But if . like OP , I find a Cayman dull then it's time to find another interest I'd suggest .
My Mustang GT has bags of character for a modern car and every drive is an event. It's a great antidote to dull modern stuff and nearly everyone seems to love them when I'm out in it. Try one.
A word of warning though, it will struggle to get past the shut line and soft touch plastics police on here.
A word of warning though, it will struggle to get past the shut line and soft touch plastics police on here.
Haven't read all the posts, but does a car not have to have quirks and flaws to have character. Like my old 4x4s, you need to learn how to live with them and how best to drive them.
Modern cars are 'too good' to have character. You can't/dont need to work with them really therefore you never build a 'relationship'
Sorry if that's been said.
Modern cars are 'too good' to have character. You can't/dont need to work with them really therefore you never build a 'relationship'
Sorry if that's been said.
There is no test for character and it's not rated on any scale, it's down to the individual and if they feel the "fizz in his pants" 
thanks Mr May, I know people that claim Japanese cars are devoid of character too but there seems to be plenty of people who will vehemently disagree with that, it's all subjective, some people insist that 911s are ugly.
Of cars I've driven I can think of two or three that I'd say were character free, all back in the 90s.
thanks Mr May, I know people that claim Japanese cars are devoid of character too but there seems to be plenty of people who will vehemently disagree with that, it's all subjective, some people insist that 911s are ugly.Of cars I've driven I can think of two or three that I'd say were character free, all back in the 90s.
300bhp/ton said:
It's good we all have opinions
However all you've done is tell me about performance, i.e. Speed and handling. I can't see anything that amounts to character. Not saying an engine can't provide it. But it would likely have to be something more than a run of the mill mass market compact power plants intended for the low end of the market.
Indeed it is.However all you've done is tell me about performance, i.e. Speed and handling. I can't see anything that amounts to character. Not saying an engine can't provide it. But it would likely have to be something more than a run of the mill mass market compact power plants intended for the low end of the market.
I said that they feel special to sit in, look at and drive. That is a characteristic of it's own. Again, your basing a car's character off a list of things that you understand to define the word. I'm personally disagreeing with that notion and a car's character, in my eyes, is something different.
Yes, it is just a faster version of the normal model but i did specifically advise that the cooking models have some great and positive character of their own. So, to me, the ST version was always going to be a great car when it's already based on a fun and popular little hatch.
coppice said:
I passed my test in 1971 and people have been moaning about modern cars of any era being dull compared to their predecessors. It is often exactly the same with music , where many people's tastes become stuck to the time when they were 16- 23 - 'it all sounds the same now ....'
The truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
But if . like OP , I find a Cayman dull then it's time to find another interest I'd suggest .
Definitely thisThe truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
But if . like OP , I find a Cayman dull then it's time to find another interest I'd suggest .
As said above - character is subjective and depends on the individual.
I have a friend who adores her 98 reg Micra - possibly the most non-petrolhead-type car on the planet as far as I'm concerned. It's not unique in any way, it has nothing in the way of performance, it isn't a particularly good looking thing if I'm honest, it's awful to drive, awful to be a passenger in, it isn't actually that reliable and needs loads doing at each MOT.
To me, I find it a ridiculous excuse of a machine. To her, it has 'character' - probably due to a combination of the traits listed above. Then again, I get all defensive when people fire the exact same list of downsides at me about the Discovery - so I'm not much better.....
My boss has just bought himself a Focus ST; he says it has character, I think of it simply as a mass-market Ford with some additional power and handling competency. He's the one who's bought it at the end of the day, so if it ticks the boxes where he's concerned in the 'character' department then I can't really argue. He pays me quite well, so I try not to argue TOO much anyway.
I have a friend who adores her 98 reg Micra - possibly the most non-petrolhead-type car on the planet as far as I'm concerned. It's not unique in any way, it has nothing in the way of performance, it isn't a particularly good looking thing if I'm honest, it's awful to drive, awful to be a passenger in, it isn't actually that reliable and needs loads doing at each MOT.
To me, I find it a ridiculous excuse of a machine. To her, it has 'character' - probably due to a combination of the traits listed above. Then again, I get all defensive when people fire the exact same list of downsides at me about the Discovery - so I'm not much better.....
My boss has just bought himself a Focus ST; he says it has character, I think of it simply as a mass-market Ford with some additional power and handling competency. He's the one who's bought it at the end of the day, so if it ticks the boxes where he's concerned in the 'character' department then I can't really argue. He pays me quite well, so I try not to argue TOO much anyway.
av185 said:
There are Caymans ......and there are Caymans.
Just like the poster hyperboling his Fiesta with some strange letters after its name.......
:
Character is a really difficult quality to define. And I'm not going to attempt that for fear of the inevitable flaming.Just like the poster hyperboling his Fiesta with some strange letters after its name.......
:But what I will say is that a few years ago I test drove several 986 Cayman S's and found them to be wonderfully competent but lacking in character - there was something so boringly efficient about them!
After brieftly considering (and having a very enjoyable test drive with) an Evora, I bought an R171 SLK55 AMG instead, which to my mind was absolutely full of character.
No character...
Hmm
My car has
1) rear wheel drive
2) LSD as standard (mechanical)
3) Naturally aspirated
4) 2+2 seats (well, really small in the rear)
5) Pretty damn big boot if not using the rear seat
6) Highly tuneable to personal taste (in my case, new mapping, intake and exhaust)
7) It has its little foibles (thats called character I guess)
8) Its modern (built in 2013)
9) Utterly reliable
And yes it is a GT86.... Those complaining about the engine never drove a remapped or even boosted one. Lots of fun, at legal speeds, quirky, good looking and drives sweet.
So for me that hits all the boxes
Hmm
My car has
1) rear wheel drive
2) LSD as standard (mechanical)
3) Naturally aspirated
4) 2+2 seats (well, really small in the rear)
5) Pretty damn big boot if not using the rear seat
6) Highly tuneable to personal taste (in my case, new mapping, intake and exhaust)
7) It has its little foibles (thats called character I guess)
8) Its modern (built in 2013)
9) Utterly reliable
And yes it is a GT86.... Those complaining about the engine never drove a remapped or even boosted one. Lots of fun, at legal speeds, quirky, good looking and drives sweet.
So for me that hits all the boxes
Zetec-S said:
Strange thread this, it's inevitable that people are going to disagree as 'character' is very subjective.
And let's face it, in 20-30 years time you could have this discussion and everyone would complain about how modern (probably electric) cars have no character, and they yearn for cars like the Focus RS, Golf R, or turbocharged M cars, AMG's or Porsches.
20-30 years ago people probably complained that modern cars like the E36 M3, RS Cosworth, Skyline, etc had no character, and they longed for more cars like the MG Midget, Triumph Dolomite, Austin-Healey...
And let's face it, in 20-30 years time you could have this discussion and everyone would complain about how modern (probably electric) cars have no character, and they yearn for cars like the Focus RS, Golf R, or turbocharged M cars, AMG's or Porsches.
20-30 years ago people probably complained that modern cars like the E36 M3, RS Cosworth, Skyline, etc had no character, and they longed for more cars like the MG Midget, Triumph Dolomite, Austin-Healey...
e21Mark said:
If they did, I don't remember it.
Your memory probably isn't what it used to be.... coppice said:
I passed my test in 1971 and people have been moaning about modern cars of any era being dull compared to their predecessors. It is often exactly the same with music , where many people's tastes become stuck to the time when they were 16- 23 - 'it all sounds the same now ....'
The truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
The truth is that to criticise a car for having no character reveals more about the speaker than the car . When I was 21 old stagers would moan about the lack of hairy chested sports cars like XK Jags , TRs and big Healeys, moaning about effete little Elans with leccy windows and a waterproof hood . I see the same here - I'd guess the majority of the PH demographic grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and hence are very attached to 205GTis ,big TVRs , Sierra Cosworths etc . It's understandable, as is my conviction that the top ten most beautiful cars were designed in the 60s - but that's my age showing.
s m said:
Skyline R32 - too easy to drive fast, average Joe can be as fast as a Porsche test driver etc
Certainly, with the GTR. But there were lesser R32's, such as the GTS, GTS-t, and GTS-4 which all had character, but weren't as fast. But as with most Japanese cars ofthe era, they character only really appears with modifications. A set of carbs or throttle bodies and a tubular exhaust manifold and straight through system on an R32 GTS will produce a noise which will put exotica to shame. Every car has character... It might be terrible or bland in your opinion, but it's there and they are all slightly different.
As has been mentioned many times on here before there is always a compromise, like my wife, she's lovely 90% of the time but the other 10% absolutely crazy/unfathomable.
None of the cars I have had are perfect and none offer me the character trait of complete waftiness. Which OK I don't want often but I'd like every now and then (tends not to mix well with the nimble, oversteery, convertible traits I like in a weekend car). I dare say the most current S class or Lexus LS does that better than anything previously, so the modern ones have plenty of wafty/luxury character.
No hatchback, saloon, estate, SUV, van, truck/any other variant/engine size etc will be all things to all people, no matter how hard the manufacturers try. Modern cars are extremely accomplished. I hasten to add that at any one time I have wanted just about everything new or old for one reason or another.
Pretty sure, given long enough, I could even think of a good reason to have the 02 Vauxhall Agila they once gave me as a courtesy car. I'm sure at some point I'd want it's exact traits for something.
As has been mentioned many times on here before there is always a compromise, like my wife, she's lovely 90% of the time but the other 10% absolutely crazy/unfathomable.
None of the cars I have had are perfect and none offer me the character trait of complete waftiness. Which OK I don't want often but I'd like every now and then (tends not to mix well with the nimble, oversteery, convertible traits I like in a weekend car). I dare say the most current S class or Lexus LS does that better than anything previously, so the modern ones have plenty of wafty/luxury character.
No hatchback, saloon, estate, SUV, van, truck/any other variant/engine size etc will be all things to all people, no matter how hard the manufacturers try. Modern cars are extremely accomplished. I hasten to add that at any one time I have wanted just about everything new or old for one reason or another.
Pretty sure, given long enough, I could even think of a good reason to have the 02 Vauxhall Agila they once gave me as a courtesy car. I'm sure at some point I'd want it's exact traits for something.
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