Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
white_goodman said:
I'm still trying to put my finger on why some cars have character and some don't. Of the ones that I have owned, it's roughly a 50/50 split.
Cars with character: Fiat Cinquecento Sporting, Peugeot 205 GTi, MG ZR, E30 BMW 325i, Corrado VR6, Impreza WRX, Fiat 500, Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0, Mercedes C250TD, MINI Cooper
The ones that didn't: Vauxhall Astra, Mazda MX5 NB, mk4 Golf GTi, mk5 Polo TDI, Chrysler Sebring V6, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic
It's clearly not just the cars... because I've owned some of your list:Cars with character: Fiat Cinquecento Sporting, Peugeot 205 GTi, MG ZR, E30 BMW 325i, Corrado VR6, Impreza WRX, Fiat 500, Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0, Mercedes C250TD, MINI Cooper
The ones that didn't: Vauxhall Astra, Mazda MX5 NB, mk4 Golf GTi, mk5 Polo TDI, Chrysler Sebring V6, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic
E30, Grand Cherokee - agreed
205, VR6, WRX - don't IMO
MX5 NB does
It probably depends how you drive them and what you get up to in / with them.
I tend to appreciate a car the more I've modified / fixed it and also if I've had some memorable drives in it.
V8RX7 said:
white_goodman said:
I'm still trying to put my finger on why some cars have character and some don't. Of the ones that I have owned, it's roughly a 50/50 split.
Cars with character: Fiat Cinquecento Sporting, Peugeot 205 GTi, MG ZR, E30 BMW 325i, Corrado VR6, Impreza WRX, Fiat 500, Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0, Mercedes C250TD, MINI Cooper
The ones that didn't: Vauxhall Astra, Mazda MX5 NB, mk4 Golf GTi, mk5 Polo TDI, Chrysler Sebring V6, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic
It's clearly not just the cars... because I've owned some of your list:Cars with character: Fiat Cinquecento Sporting, Peugeot 205 GTi, MG ZR, E30 BMW 325i, Corrado VR6, Impreza WRX, Fiat 500, Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0, Mercedes C250TD, MINI Cooper
The ones that didn't: Vauxhall Astra, Mazda MX5 NB, mk4 Golf GTi, mk5 Polo TDI, Chrysler Sebring V6, Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic
E30, Grand Cherokee - agreed
205, VR6, WRX - don't IMO
MX5 NB does
It probably depends how you drive them and what you get up to in / with them.
I tend to appreciate a car the more I've modified / fixed it and also if I've had some memorable drives in it.
The engine has always played a big part in the character for me, the trend for smaller engines has had a big effect.
I find all the BMW's, MB's and Audi's have pretty much zero character as 4 cylinder cars. Drive a 4 cylinder 5 series and you may as well be driving a Toyota Camry.
Also a lot less differentiation in cabins - e.g. the M3 is not that much different from a 328i MSport.
Then the detachment from actual driving is a too mI have, most cars are far too luxurious, but then most people buying M3's and expensive cars want luxury - let's face it most modern day buyers are buying to show off, not for performance.
I find all the BMW's, MB's and Audi's have pretty much zero character as 4 cylinder cars. Drive a 4 cylinder 5 series and you may as well be driving a Toyota Camry.
Also a lot less differentiation in cabins - e.g. the M3 is not that much different from a 328i MSport.
Then the detachment from actual driving is a too mI have, most cars are far too luxurious, but then most people buying M3's and expensive cars want luxury - let's face it most modern day buyers are buying to show off, not for performance.
Noise, Vibration and Harshness all but expertly engineered out of modern cars.
Great for comfort, reducing fatigue, feeling refined etc
But a s a result modern sporting cars feeling quite synthetic in my experience
Turbos, flappy paddles, configurable driver settings all exacerbating this. 'Sound enhancers' the perfect manifestation of 'I want a sporting car but not too sporting pls'
Anything that distances driver from the mechanical workings of the car is a loss of character.
Great for comfort, reducing fatigue, feeling refined etc
But a s a result modern sporting cars feeling quite synthetic in my experience
Turbos, flappy paddles, configurable driver settings all exacerbating this. 'Sound enhancers' the perfect manifestation of 'I want a sporting car but not too sporting pls'
Anything that distances driver from the mechanical workings of the car is a loss of character.
s m said:
Don't think 2 different people's lists will ever be the same personally - as said above, the example you owned/drove, the drives you had in it, all will colour your opinion.
Interesting you picked those three (I think some of the others were more likely to get challenged). My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
s m said:
I've noticed that often happens
Toyota GT86 in 2012 - not special enough
BMW M135i made it through to the final 5
M135i not so highly rated now though? I know it's a bit of a PH favourite because RWD, BMW, straight six, manual BUT the motoring press now rate other FWD and AWD hatches higher. Maybe even the Focus RS...Toyota GT86 in 2012 - not special enough
BMW M135i made it through to the final 5
Nicmenicnic said:
I had a gallardo that i sold and bought a huracan...... Biggest regret ever... Should have just bought a rs6 and kept my 08 gallardo 
In what way is the Gallardo a better car? And how is a fuel guzzling RS6 a better alternative? Don't really see why an RS6 would come into question when buying a Lambo?white_goodman said:
s m said:
I've noticed that often happens
Toyota GT86 in 2012 - not special enough
BMW M135i made it through to the final 5
M135i not so highly rated now though? I know it's a bit of a PH favourite because RWD, BMW, straight six, manual BUT the motoring press now rate other FWD and AWD hatches higher. Maybe even the Focus RS...Toyota GT86 in 2012 - not special enough
BMW M135i made it through to the final 5
white_goodman said:
Interesting you picked those three (I think some of the others were more likely to get challenged).
My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
205 - I had a few of them - all 1.9, a couple with 16v transplants I just didn't gell with them in the same way as I did the MK2 Golf GTi.My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
Possibly we are coming from different places as I've never owned a "white goods" car I suppose if you are comparing one to a Vectra then yes suddenly it has character !
The same with the Corrado - I ran mine at the same time I ran an E36 328 which I wasn't that keen on, yet it was better in every way than the corrado
and it cost a lot less.
I'm a huge NA fan and the NB is very similar just a bit more refined, mine was an RS with an intake and exhaust and I recall a glorious blat across the Cotswolds on a summer's day absolutely caning it as I was used to my supercharged car with 60bhp more so I needed to use every bhp to the max and not lose momentum.
V8RX7 said:
205 - I had a few of them - all 1.9, a couple with 16v transplants I just didn't gell with them in the same way as I did the MK2 Golf GTi.
Possibly we are coming from different places as I've never owned a "white goods" car I suppose if you are comparing one to a Vectra then yes suddenly it has character !
The same with the Corrado - I ran mine at the same time I ran an E36 328 which I wasn't that keen on, yet it was better in every way than the corrado
and it cost a lot less.
I'm a huge NA fan and the NB is very similar just a bit more refined, mine was an RS with an intake and exhaust and I recall a glorious blat across the Cotswolds on a summer's day absolutely caning it as I was used to my supercharged car with 60bhp more so I needed to use every bhp to the max and not lose momentum.
Fair enough. My 205 GTi was a 1.6 if that makes a difference. Oddly my two favourite 80s hot hatches were the 205 and the mk2 Golf GTi. I finally got to drive a well-preserved big-bumper 8v 5 door a few years later and I have to say I found it a bit underwhelming compared to the 205, although pleasant enough and no doubt an easier car to live with. Not that much experience with E36 BMWs but the Corrado was certainly sportier than my E30 (mine was just a 325i, not a Sport), better brakes and less wallowy. The E30 was a fine thing to cruise around in around 6/10 though. I sometimes wonder whether I should have got a mk2 16v 3 door instead of the Corrado and I may have found it more enjoyable. It would have been a great investment too but seemed like a bit of a downgrade from the 325i, hence the Corrado,Possibly we are coming from different places as I've never owned a "white goods" car I suppose if you are comparing one to a Vectra then yes suddenly it has character !
The same with the Corrado - I ran mine at the same time I ran an E36 328 which I wasn't that keen on, yet it was better in every way than the corrado
and it cost a lot less.
I'm a huge NA fan and the NB is very similar just a bit more refined, mine was an RS with an intake and exhaust and I recall a glorious blat across the Cotswolds on a summer's day absolutely caning it as I was used to my supercharged car with 60bhp more so I needed to use every bhp to the max and not lose momentum.
Again, the MX5 may not have been the best version of the NB. Just a 2003 1.8i Nevada special edition with the 5-speed and no LSD but less than a year old and only 3000 miles so should have been in good nick. 16 inch wheels if I recall. I only owned it for around 9 months and didn't get to drive it as much as I would have liked due to working 6 days per week and having the use of a company car. I did try a Sport with the 6-speed and LSD but didn't notice much difference on a short test drive. The MGFs that I were selling at the time were far more characterful in my opinion, just not as well built or reliable as I saw first hand! I liked the VVC engine and mid-engined handling of the MGF better though...
205GTI was sublime but I preferred the slightly more grown up Mk2 Golf- went on forever and perfect blend of grip and go in austere, but so comfortable package . But most character by far of that era were my Uno Turbos- no grip , terrible ride, dire clutch action but quite ludicrously quick- and even sounded great too . Flawed but fantastic and my best road trip in Europe was to Imola in mine , avoiding most autostrade and autoroutes too .
Character definition: the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.
Last new car I drove was a 328i in 1999/2000, and newest car I've driven (still own) is a '56 plate, which I'm guessing isn't a 'modern' car?
Anyway, in terms of aggregate of features and traits, the car I've owned that had more features and traits (character wise) than anything I've owned since was my 1965 Morris 1275 Cooper S. Had more character than Rocky Balboa had testosterone
Last new car I drove was a 328i in 1999/2000, and newest car I've driven (still own) is a '56 plate, which I'm guessing isn't a 'modern' car?
Anyway, in terms of aggregate of features and traits, the car I've owned that had more features and traits (character wise) than anything I've owned since was my 1965 Morris 1275 Cooper S. Had more character than Rocky Balboa had testosterone
I preferred the 205 GTI to the Mk2 Golf GTI. Had them at the same time with a Caterham aswell with about 6 months cross over. Both very good examples but for me the Peugeot was considerably more exciting.
For oversteer, steering, handling and sheer fun, there was no comparison. The Golf was more comfortable though. And rusted more.
For oversteer, steering, handling and sheer fun, there was no comparison. The Golf was more comfortable though. And rusted more.
V8RX7 said:
white_goodman said:
Interesting you picked those three (I think some of the others were more likely to get challenged).
My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
205 - I had a few of them - all 1.9, a couple with 16v transplants I just didn't gell with them in the same way as I did the MK2 Golf GTi.My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
Possibly we are coming from different places as I've never owned a "white goods" car I suppose if you are comparing one to a Vectra then yes suddenly it has character !
The same with the Corrado - I ran mine at the same time I ran an E36 328 which I wasn't that keen on, yet it was better in every way than the corrado
and it cost a lot less.
I'm a huge NA fan and the NB is very similar just a bit more refined, mine was an RS with an intake and exhaust and I recall a glorious blat across the Cotswolds on a summer's day absolutely caning it as I was used to my supercharged car with 60bhp more so I needed to use every bhp to the max and not lose momentum.
Loved the unassisted steering and the fact the brakes worked, mk1 brakes were crap.
We have a Fiesta ST coming next week for my eldest, will see if that has character, he came back from driving it grinning like a loon.
SidewaysSi said:
I preferred the 205 GTI to the Mk2 Golf GTI. Had them at the same time with a Caterham aswell with about 6 months cross over. Both very good examples but for me the Peugeot was considerably more exciting.
For oversteer, steering, handling and sheer fun, there was no comparison. The Golf was more comfortable though. And rusted more.
I only had a Mk1 1800 but never really fell in love with it. Brakes were rubbish as mentioned - had the 309Gti rather than the 205 Gti which had a lot more character for me. The one I really loved, brimming with character, was the 16v Astra, the engine, tail led handling and sheer brio of it all suited meFor oversteer, steering, handling and sheer fun, there was no comparison. The Golf was more comfortable though. And rusted more.
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