Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
s m said:
Devil's advocate perhaps.....but are you saying a 911 always wins ?
Consequently last years winner was the GT4 2nd was the GT3 RS and 3rd the Mclaren LT.
A significant factor underlying the GT4s win was that the GT3 RS and Mclaren simply gave you more of which you CANNOT use on a public road. And less involment too especially with the semi automatic but nevertheless brillant gearboxes v the GT4s 'manuel'.
In the real world of UK best driving roads there are only microscopic differences between a rapid car and a truly rapid car. Its more about the involvement and drivability at more accessible and safe limits.
av185 said:
The ecoty comparisons try to find the best DRIVERS car. Irrespective of price, badge and practicalities.
Consequently last years winner was the GT4 2nd was the GT3 RS and 3rd the Mclaren LT.
:
Actually you might find last year's winner was the 991R and the year the gt4 won the 675 was 2nd with the 991rs 3rd.Consequently last years winner was the GT4 2nd was the GT3 RS and 3rd the Mclaren LT.
:
And if evo truly wanted to try to find the best drivers' car irrespective of 'price, badge and practicalities ' as you claim then a caterham would win every year.....
isaldiri said:
av185 said:
The ecoty comparisons try to find the best DRIVERS car. Irrespective of price, badge and practicalities.
Consequently last years winner was the GT4 2nd was the GT3 RS and 3rd the Mclaren LT.
:
Actually you might find last year's winner was the 991R and the year the gt4 won the 675 was 2nd with the 991rs 3rd.Consequently last years winner was the GT4 2nd was the GT3 RS and 3rd the Mclaren LT.
:
And if evo truly wanted to try to find the best drivers' car irrespective of 'price, badge and practicalities ' as you claim then a caterham would win every year.....
OP...
Industry by Simon Cox, on Flickr
I went from a 400bhp Focus RS Mk2 to an NA Evora. The former is often said to be full of character because of its engine note, the way it scrabbles for traction and the fact it stands out from the crowd. At 400bhp its amplified but soon becomes a bit of a nause.
The Evora is characterful for me because its a special act opening the door, sliding over the sill bum first into the seat and tucking your legs under the wheel. The booming bark as the engine catches (after turning the key - in itself not a common feature in modern performance cars where push button start is the norm) starting in an uneven idle before settling into a purposeful idle... The effort required to move the clutch combined with a blip of the throttle. The vibrations and geartrain noise, the communication through the magnesium wheel, the suck of the inlet instantaneous to throttle application, the noise and accessibility at virtually any speed and the banshee wail at the top end of the rev range.... It's bloody intoxicating.
Where It All Started by Simon Cox, on Flickr
Carbon Grey by Simon Cox, on Flickr
Plenty of character in this... Sure it has it's critics, apparently its not powerful enough in N/A form and can look odd from some angles - most of it's critics come from those who haven't and won't drive them... To me it's 90% of the Elise/Exige character and capability, but with added refinement and practicality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GABEh2scHCY
Industry by Simon Cox, on FlickrI went from a 400bhp Focus RS Mk2 to an NA Evora. The former is often said to be full of character because of its engine note, the way it scrabbles for traction and the fact it stands out from the crowd. At 400bhp its amplified but soon becomes a bit of a nause.
The Evora is characterful for me because its a special act opening the door, sliding over the sill bum first into the seat and tucking your legs under the wheel. The booming bark as the engine catches (after turning the key - in itself not a common feature in modern performance cars where push button start is the norm) starting in an uneven idle before settling into a purposeful idle... The effort required to move the clutch combined with a blip of the throttle. The vibrations and geartrain noise, the communication through the magnesium wheel, the suck of the inlet instantaneous to throttle application, the noise and accessibility at virtually any speed and the banshee wail at the top end of the rev range.... It's bloody intoxicating.
Where It All Started by Simon Cox, on FlickrCarbon Grey by Simon Cox, on FlickrPlenty of character in this... Sure it has it's critics, apparently its not powerful enough in N/A form and can look odd from some angles - most of it's critics come from those who haven't and won't drive them... To me it's 90% of the Elise/Exige character and capability, but with added refinement and practicality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GABEh2scHCY
Edited by Havoc856-S on Saturday 27th May 15:21
J4CKO said:
V8RX7 said:
white_goodman said:
Interesting you picked those three (I think some of the others were more likely to get challenged).
My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
205 - I had a few of them - all 1.9, a couple with 16v transplants I just didn't gell with them in the same way as I did the MK2 Golf GTi.My 205 GTi was probably the most characterful of them all. I can't think of what aspect of the car didn't have character. The throaty, free-revving engine, the lumpy idle, needing to slip the clutch in traffic to avoid lurching, the pin-sharp chassis, unassisted steering dripping with feedback, the tail-happiness, lack of ABS, flick-wrist gearchange, crisp, Pininfarina styling, the disintegrating interior and wayward electrics.
I can't say that I've ever driven a vanilla 205 but as "white goods" cars go, I tend to find the smallest hatches the most characterful and it's rare that I haven't found some enjoyment in driving a small hatch, even a low-powered one. Compare that to something like a mid-range Astra or Vectra, which is just dull.
I believe very much that the engine is the heart of the car and purely for this reason I think the Corrado VR6 is a characterful car. I'm not a huge fan of V6 engines. I'll take a V6 over an NA 4-cylinder for the extra power and they sound a little better but still quite workmanlike really. I much prefer the sound of a Flat 6 Porsche or a straight six BMW. The VW VR6 is one of the great V6 engines though along with the Busso V6 and the VTEC V6 in the original Honda NSX. Also, I loved the chunky styling, as VW coupes always look a bit different from the rest of the generic-looking range. Not such a characterful handler though. Very faithful and competent and faster and easier to press on in than the E30 that it replaced but it didn't get under my skin quite so much. That was probably because it was a ratty example though and I had a few issues with it compared to my minty E30. I would consider another one though if it was a nicer example and the right price.
Likewise my WRX (a 2004 "Blobeye"). Modern twin-scroll turbos are quick but have rather a boring, linear power delivery. This one was old school with a wait, wait and then all hell breaks loose at 2000rpm. Maybe not as effective as a Golf R but much more exciting. The Flat 4 makes a characterful noise too and I never got bored with the sound of the turbo dumping boost between gears. Great chassis and AWD system too and the hood scoop was childish but cool. You can really tell by the lack of styling, relatively crappy interior and sub-German refinement where the engineers spent your money. In Mica blue with the dinner-plate sized fog lights and anthracite wheels, so much visual attitude too.
I still can't agree with you on the NB MX5. The engine was pretty anodyne, mine had more grip than power and was more prone to understeer than oversteer. Nowhere near as eager and playful as my 205. I liked the look of it and that it was a RWD roadster and being seen in something that would be perceived as a little bit "flash" at the time but as a driving experience it was really nothing special. I do like MX5s though. I would have an NA or a later NC like my dad's or an ND, just not another NB.
I think most people would be happy with a high-spec diesel VW/BMW/Audi/Mercedes these days but I think most PHers crave a bit more character than that, even if it's just in our "fun" car. I was genuinely sad to see all my "characterful" cars go, as I had formed a bond with them but as for the rest, I didn't actively dislike them or I wouldn't have bought them but I couldn't really care less when they went. In the melee, I forgot to put my wife's current Grand Voyager on the second list. In many ways, the perfect family car and I don't dislike driving it but it doesn't have much character and obviously instantly forgettable!
Possibly we are coming from different places as I've never owned a "white goods" car I suppose if you are comparing one to a Vectra then yes suddenly it has character !
The same with the Corrado - I ran mine at the same time I ran an E36 328 which I wasn't that keen on, yet it was better in every way than the corrado
and it cost a lot less.
I'm a huge NA fan and the NB is very similar just a bit more refined, mine was an RS with an intake and exhaust and I recall a glorious blat across the Cotswolds on a summer's day absolutely caning it as I was used to my supercharged car with 60bhp more so I needed to use every bhp to the max and not lose momentum.
Loved the unassisted steering and the fact the brakes worked, mk1 brakes were crap.
We have a Fiesta ST coming next week for my eldest, will see if that has character, he came back from driving it grinning like a loon.
Back to the OP, as I don't think a 30 year old hot hatch is really what they are after, the only new car that I have driven recently that is dripping with character is the Mustang GT. I imagine that a C63 AMG would still get the juices flowing as well or you could try a Lotus. If you can't stretch to a new GT3, then I would be looking at an older Flat 6 (pre-turbo) Boxster, Cayman or 911 and some of the older BMW M cars too for character and a more involving drive.
TameRacingDriver said:
I've had a couple of Mk1 MX5s and I want to know from those who've driven both, which do you prefer, the Mk1 or Mk4? The Mk4 is apparently a return to form, but what do you think?
I haven't driven an ND but it's definitely on my list of cars to try. A couple of interesting videos with unexpected outcomes!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLtw2z_mZ6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HFEaZi5mI
aaron_2000 said:
Nicmenicnic said:
I had a gallardo that i sold and bought a huracan...... Biggest regret ever... Should have just bought a rs6 and kept my 08 gallardo 
In what way is the Gallardo a better car? And how is a fuel guzzling RS6 a better alternative? Don't really see why an RS6 would come into question when buying a Lambo?The gallardo felt more alive and imo more sense of a special sunday car. The huracan was just a 2 door rs6 with flashy looks. the huracan lights would come on the dash everynow again after a good ragging.....the huracan on the other hand just did everything you threw at it and dealt with it.
The RS6 comes in to it so you have all the usability of same engine, but you can take the kids out in it too
white_goodman said:
I haven't driven an ND but it's definitely on my list of cars to try. A couple of interesting videos with unexpected outcomes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLtw2z_mZ6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HFEaZi5mI
Cheers. I enjoyed those, but confused by the mk4. It has received some rave reviews for its handling but the second video says it's too soft? I think I'd definitely have it over the gt86 though, it seems like it would be more fun, slightly faster and is a convertible which goes a long way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLtw2z_mZ6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HFEaZi5mI
A short story about myself buying my first sporty car which fit to this discussion pretty well I think.
I recently said to myself I will buy a sporty fun to drive car and was about to spend a maximum of 30k or a acceptable monthly rate for a exciting fun to drive car.
At first I drove some 280hp+ new cars. A BMW M135i, Golf R (current and last generation) and GTI, Audi S3, Audi RS3, Honda Civic Type R, Focus RS (current and last generation). After those I had to decide for myself between the M135 (very nice Engine and sort of light feeling) and the current Focus RS (Very fun to drive car). Then I thought why not testing the Mx5 and Gt86? So I drove both too and I can say. They are extremely fun to drive. I thought they had so much character and you don't need to be faster to have more fun. Especially the Mx5 with the 160hp engine let you pull of easily some kind of drifts. At this time I knew it would be hard to decide between a used but almost new M135, to rent a new Focus RS or to buy a new MX5 (was a bit more fun than the GT86). Before buying one I drove a e46 M3 (the dad of a friend had one and he said give this "old" car a try) which was surprisingly good and almost better than the M135 (a bit to big for me I must say). So I read much about old cars and said to me. Lets wait another 2 month or so with the decision and test some older fun cars. So I drove a (pretty cheap) E30 325i which was by far more fun than the GT86. Don't know why? Maybe the engine? The Sound? The surprising lightweight feeling? Maybe cause it was not filled up with crap you don't need in fun cars? After that a Nissan 200SX followed and then I found my car which let me forget all of the cars I mentioned above. Near where I live someone sold a 99% stock Subaru WRX STI Type RA V-Limited (I found out later) from 1996. I thought, lets give it a try (I live in Germany and those cars are very rare and its RHD). I took my father with me (like always) to get a second opinion and we drove it. I have to say. The feeling of this car is ASTONISHING. It is incredible light the engine makes wonderful sounds and the acceleration is incredible. I immediately forgot all other cars and bought the Subaru the next day.
The thing about the older cars is. They are what they are and don't try to be everything and try to suite everyone.
I recently said to myself I will buy a sporty fun to drive car and was about to spend a maximum of 30k or a acceptable monthly rate for a exciting fun to drive car.
At first I drove some 280hp+ new cars. A BMW M135i, Golf R (current and last generation) and GTI, Audi S3, Audi RS3, Honda Civic Type R, Focus RS (current and last generation). After those I had to decide for myself between the M135 (very nice Engine and sort of light feeling) and the current Focus RS (Very fun to drive car). Then I thought why not testing the Mx5 and Gt86? So I drove both too and I can say. They are extremely fun to drive. I thought they had so much character and you don't need to be faster to have more fun. Especially the Mx5 with the 160hp engine let you pull of easily some kind of drifts. At this time I knew it would be hard to decide between a used but almost new M135, to rent a new Focus RS or to buy a new MX5 (was a bit more fun than the GT86). Before buying one I drove a e46 M3 (the dad of a friend had one and he said give this "old" car a try) which was surprisingly good and almost better than the M135 (a bit to big for me I must say). So I read much about old cars and said to me. Lets wait another 2 month or so with the decision and test some older fun cars. So I drove a (pretty cheap) E30 325i which was by far more fun than the GT86. Don't know why? Maybe the engine? The Sound? The surprising lightweight feeling? Maybe cause it was not filled up with crap you don't need in fun cars? After that a Nissan 200SX followed and then I found my car which let me forget all of the cars I mentioned above. Near where I live someone sold a 99% stock Subaru WRX STI Type RA V-Limited (I found out later) from 1996. I thought, lets give it a try (I live in Germany and those cars are very rare and its RHD). I took my father with me (like always) to get a second opinion and we drove it. I have to say. The feeling of this car is ASTONISHING. It is incredible light the engine makes wonderful sounds and the acceleration is incredible. I immediately forgot all other cars and bought the Subaru the next day.
The thing about the older cars is. They are what they are and don't try to be everything and try to suite everyone.
TameRacingDriver said:
Cheers. I enjoyed those, but confused by the mk4. It has received some rave reviews for its handling but the second video says it's too soft? I think I'd definitely have it over the gt86 though, it seems like it would be more fun, slightly faster and is a convertible which goes a long way.
Well, the ND MX5 certainly looks softer on track but I was surprised despite being 40bhp down on paper how much faster the MX5 was in a straight line and on track than the BRZ! Don't underestimate the effect of low weight and gearing I guess (I made this mistake once when taking on an S1 Elise in my more powerful 325i). The new MX5 looks like a lot of fun though. I was surprised that the mk3 came out on top in the Everyday Driver comparison.white_goodman said:
Well, the ND MX5 certainly looks softer on track but I was surprised despite being 40bhp down on paper how much faster the MX5 was in a straight line and on track than the BRZ! Don't underestimate the effect of low weight and gearing I guess (I made this mistake once when taking on an S1 Elise in my more powerful 325i). The new MX5 looks like a lot of fun though. I was surprised that the mk3 came out on top in the Everyday Driver comparison.
I suspect that Everyday Driver would be different to other reviews on two main counts. 1. They are in the USA. And while they have some awesome canyon roads. It's really not quite the same thing as bumpy unclassified white roads that the MX-5 excels on in the U.K.
2. As an 'everyday' daily driver in the USA. Then something a little softer and more comfy is actually likely to be the winner, rather than just the car for a full out blast. Even more so on US roads and the distances you are likely to cover.
TameRacingDriver said:
Agreed I was surprised about the mk3 taking the top spot, wasn't it always regarded as the worst of the bunch in mx5 circles?
Whilst I haven't driven a MK4 I've driven loads of the others.The MK3 isn't an "MX5" - as it it doesn't drive / feel / share the DNA of the others.
It is however arguably the best car in the form of stiffness, handling etc but it lacks the character that defines the earlier models.
V8RX7 said:
The MK3 isn't an "MX5" - as it it doesn't drive / feel / share the DNA of the others.
It is however arguably the best car in the form of stiffness, handling etc but it lacks the character that defines the earlier models.
can't agree. the mk3 engines were a little flat, esp compared to a zingy 1.6, but the car was great.It is however arguably the best car in the form of stiffness, handling etc but it lacks the character that defines the earlier models.
UK screwed up ride height on early mk3s, soon corrected at WIM. Petrolhead cred with the mx5 should always be high - it has fully adjustable suspension at all four wheels and double w/bones. Adjust to taste.... and never judge one by a test drive, they get knocked about by people who don't look after them.
Modern cars - no character? More like, modern buyers - no imagination!
The idea that fitting an everyday hatchback or saloon with a big engine and some shiny toys will somehow fill it with character makes no sense. If you want an interesting car you need to go out and find an interesting car.
Were old cars somehow magically better than modern cars? Of course not.
The idea that fitting an everyday hatchback or saloon with a big engine and some shiny toys will somehow fill it with character makes no sense. If you want an interesting car you need to go out and find an interesting car.
Were old cars somehow magically better than modern cars? Of course not.
rockin said:
Were old cars somehow magically better than modern cars? Of course not.
I don't think people are saying that newer cars aren't better in terms of performance, reliability, build quality etc, but the fact that older cars tend to be more temperamental is in part what gives them the "character" missing in mass produced modern cars, IMO of course.Edited by Monkeylegend on Thursday 1st June 14:01
I think too many modern cars are just too refined and clinical.
- Computer generated designs all look too similar
- Lifeless electric power steering systems instead of no power steering or hydraulic
- Over-servo-ed brakes and ABS system
- Interiors screwed together better, no rattles
- Sound deadening added to filter out engine, wind and road noise (NVH improvements)
- Almost always heavier kerb weight, which affects the handling and agility
- Power delivery now very samey across models - lots of low down torque, not much incentive to rev a car anymore
- Engines sound too smooth, refined, bland
- Some models that used to use 6-pot engines now all going for 4-pot turbos, including the likes of Porsche.
- Handling all very grippy and safe
- Many cars now too fast to use properly on the road, yet fail to give any sensation of speed
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