RE: Ford Mustang is best-selling sports car on earth
Discussion
swerni said:
J4CKO said:
I can just imagine some lovely young woman coming up when you are sat in one and going "Hey, nice Sports car",
Dream on, that's never going to happen in the first place. 
MDMetal said:
Problem is the UK mustang is a watered down version of the US one, no DLR's no sequential indicators, a fraction of the interior options. Shame, I'd rather import one and get what I wnated though!
In one sense you are correct, but it's not the available frippery that is the problem. It's the abortion of a job they have done on the exhaust header to accommodate the steering column etc of the RHD vehicle that robs it of power and reduces output to a measley 416bhp.Edited by Garvin on Wednesday 24th May 13:59
VladD said:
J4CKO said:
I can just imagine some lovely young woman coming up when you are sat in one and going "Hey, nice Sports car",
Adopts Clarkson style Adenoidal voice,
"Sorry but I must correct you there"....
She leaves and meets a TT owner.
If she thinks a Mustang is a sports car then she deserves no better than an Audi owner Adopts Clarkson style Adenoidal voice,
"Sorry but I must correct you there"....
She leaves and meets a TT owner.
Only marginally, granted.
VladD said:
300bhp/ton said:
bobchevy said:
It is a Muscle car ! a term we do not seem to use a lot in Europe the Americans have used the muscle car name for years.
A AMG Merc M3 M4 ect I regard as muscle cars as well.
If we adopted that term it could save a lot of debate.
The Mustang has never really been a muscle car. It's always been known as a Pony car in America. A AMG Merc M3 M4 ect I regard as muscle cars as well.
If we adopted that term it could save a lot of debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car
'Muscle car is an American term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports cars with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2-door, rear wheel drive, family-style compact, mid-size or full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6] They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car
Essentially it's a size thing. Mostly the physical size and weight of the car. Muscle cars were as a rule proper 4 seater cars (or more if you had two bench seats). And as a rule Muscle cars could be optioned with the 'big' engines, i.e. the 427, 455, 454, 426 big blocks of the era.
Pony cars are typically smaller and lighter and more often found with 2+2 seating rather than 4 proper seats. And as a rule most Pony cars haven't had the big engine options of the rest of the range.
i.e. Most gen 1 Mustangs where small block V8's, the big block really wasn't such a mainstream option. And for the Camaro, it only ever got the 396 engine, not the 454.
framerateuk said:
I'm really struggling with my old definition of "Sports car" at the moment.
It used to be, 2 seater (or 2+2), 2 doors, rear wheel drive, front or mid-engined, but more important than that, to me, it needs to be built purely as a sports car, not some tricked up version of a standard model (there go your hot hatches, M3's and the like).
When you say purely built as a sports car, where do you stand on things like the Triumph Spitfire and GT6? Both are essentially Triumph Heralds, so apart from the body, neither are purely built as sports cars.It used to be, 2 seater (or 2+2), 2 doors, rear wheel drive, front or mid-engined, but more important than that, to me, it needs to be built purely as a sports car, not some tricked up version of a standard model (there go your hot hatches, M3's and the like).
Which begs the question, something like a Ford Puma is no different in concept to the GT6... so is a Puma a.... ?
More modern era. The BMW Z3, it's clearly a sports car, can't really be anything else, but from the front it's e36 saloon and the back e30 saloon, just with a different body. Not seeming quite as pure bread any longer.
dunnoreally said:
ITT: PH does philosophy of language?
My concern with the Mustang is less about whether it fits into whatever arbitrary definition we give the phrase "sports car", and more to do with how big it is compared with the roads near me. Be hard to enjoy a car round here if you have to pull right in and slow right down whenever there's a Range Rover that's precious about getting its arches dirty coming in the other direction.
They are no bigger than driving a BMW, Merc, Audi or Jag of similar type. And tbh, if the road is so narrow that you feel you'd have to slowing and pull right in just for oncoming traffic, then chances are the road is too narrow for anything other than a bike....My concern with the Mustang is less about whether it fits into whatever arbitrary definition we give the phrase "sports car", and more to do with how big it is compared with the roads near me. Be hard to enjoy a car round here if you have to pull right in and slow right down whenever there's a Range Rover that's precious about getting its arches dirty coming in the other direction.
This comes from a tiny sports car owner (smart Roadster) and a pony car owner (Camaro z28) and happen to live in the country side/village setting.
spikyone said:
Onehp said:
Ask 100 random people if a Mustang is a sports car or not. In the world, not just at your motorsport pub or this forum. Does anybody here really think that the majority will answer No? Will you really try to educate all of the ones that answer Yes? Good luck...
Those random people might have no interest in cars. So why is their answer more valid than the opinion of people who do have an interest in cars, as most of the posters here do? Fast cars are not necessarily sports cars, and sports cars are not necessarily fast. I can't think of a single car that's over 1.5 tonnes that could correctly be called a sports car. A 370Z is pushing the definition of a sports car to near breaking point, a Mustang is definitely outside that definition.As someone pointed out earlier, many Americans do not consider an MX-5, sorry Miata, to be a sports car. Because it's too slow, too small, too under powered and only has a tiny 4 cylinder engine in it.
Car history in the USA stretches back just as far as it does here btw.
So it's down to perspective.
Who honestly cares about anal definitions of what makes a 'sports car'? It has nothing to do with any actual sport and has about as much meaning as 'sports' jackets, it's a meaningless marketing moniker applied to products to associate an image to them, that's it. Ultimately it means whatever the person buying the product wants it to mean, if someone believes their 118d is a 'sports car' then hooray for them.
The important thing is lots of people are buying nice big simple V8s so many years down the line such things will still be available to those of us that enjoy them.
The important thing is lots of people are buying nice big simple V8s so many years down the line such things will still be available to those of us that enjoy them.
Munter said:
I think we should apply this rule:
Would it be at home on a trackday (e.g. doing "motorsport" at it's base level)?
No = not a sports car
Yes = sports car
Ford Mustang would look right at home on a trackday. Nobody would be at all surprised.
If I saw a Mustang on a track day I would feel it's out of place because of its size and weight, my V8 M3 was a similar weight to the Mustang and that felt it's weight when you threw it about, and the brakes wilted at high speed even on the road. Would it be at home on a trackday (e.g. doing "motorsport" at it's base level)?
No = not a sports car
Yes = sports car
Ford Mustang would look right at home on a trackday. Nobody would be at all surprised.
So for me personally a sports car is something a lot smaller/lighter than something like the M3/Mustang, just my take on it though and I'm sure plenty would class both the M3/Mustang as sports cars because it's just so subjective.
Nanook said:
otolith said:
My first filter is "Is the base model in the range a sportscar". Which eliminates hot hatches, fast saloons, etc.
3 series Coupe?C-class Coupe?
Where do you stand on those? The M3 and C63 aren't sports cars?
Someone on the last page said it's not difficult, but it's not straightforward either!
otolith said:
Nanook said:
otolith said:
My first filter is "Is the base model in the range a sportscar". Which eliminates hot hatches, fast saloons, etc.
3 series Coupe?C-class Coupe?
Where do you stand on those? The M3 and C63 aren't sports cars?
Someone on the last page said it's not difficult, but it's not straightforward either!
E65Ross said:
otolith said:
Nanook said:
otolith said:
My first filter is "Is the base model in the range a sportscar". Which eliminates hot hatches, fast saloons, etc.
3 series Coupe?C-class Coupe?
Where do you stand on those? The M3 and C63 aren't sports cars?
Someone on the last page said it's not difficult, but it's not straightforward either!
What makes an M3 a sportcar and a 320D not? Power? A diff? Uprated suspension?
Nanook said:
otolith said:
I wouldn't personally think of the Mustang as a sports car, but for reasons other than the "is the same thing with a smaller engine one" test.
What makes an M3 a sportcar and a 320D not? Power? A diff? Uprated suspension?
I see, I thought from your first post in this particular train of thought, that based on your first principle, you were arguing that the Mustang is a sports car.What makes an M3 a sportcar and a 320D not? Power? A diff? Uprated suspension?
So I wondered what your thoughts were on similar type cars that aren't the base model in their particular range, such as the Merc or BMW.
I'm not arguing that a M3 is a sports car.
I guess I was stating that if a Mustang is, why is an M3 not.
Munter said:
I think we should apply this rule:
Would it be at home on a trackday (e.g. doing "motorsport" at it's base level)?
No = not a sports car
Yes = sports car
Ford Mustang would look right at home on a trackday. Nobody would be at all surprised.
Sadly the inverse of that would mean a Renault Clio Williams is a sports car.Would it be at home on a trackday (e.g. doing "motorsport" at it's base level)?
No = not a sports car
Yes = sports car
Ford Mustang would look right at home on a trackday. Nobody would be at all surprised.
300bhp/ton said:
Sadly the inverse of that would mean a Renault Clio Williams is a sports car.
As would a 2CV (there's a thriving 2CV racing scene). 
It's a daft argument anyway, just as Ford's claim is a daft claim. If you're allowed to define "sports car" yourself, you can claim anything is the best selling sports car on earth. Does it really matter anyway; Ford selling 150k+ Mustangs in a year is something to be celebrated by anyone who considers themselves a car enthusiast; who gives a damn if that makes it the best selling anything?
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th May 19:11
cerb4.5lee said:
If I saw a Mustang on a track day I would feel it's out of place because of its size and weight, my V8 M3 was a similar weight to the Mustang and that felt it's weight when you threw it about, and the brakes wilted at high speed even on the road.
So for me personally a sports car is something a lot smaller/lighter than something like the M3/Mustang, just my take on it though and I'm sure plenty would class both the M3/Mustang as sports cars because it's just so subjective.
Most track days will have at least one M3 in attendance, usually more on the bigger circuits. Just because you don't fancy it doesn't mean its out of place. There's also very few completely standard road cars that won't experience brake fade when punished - customers complain about noisy & dusty pads so most OEMs fit pads with compromised top end performance to please 99% of drivers.So for me personally a sports car is something a lot smaller/lighter than something like the M3/Mustang, just my take on it though and I'm sure plenty would class both the M3/Mustang as sports cars because it's just so subjective.
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