Sold a car privately - COURT ACTION

[Fastdruid]

Joey Deacon said:

I am absolutely shocked this has even got this far, surely nobody buys a BMW for £2100 and expects it to be perfect and not have any problems ever. As a private seller are you expected to be responsible for any problems the car may have had in the past or in the future?

As far as I am concerned, as a buyer I am responsible for any problems with a car as soon as I hand over the money. If I failed to spot an issue when looking at the car or if it develops a problem in the future that is my problem.

A BMW with 134k on it! I'd consider myself lucky if it got home without the subframe falling off from cracking mounts, the gearbox stting itself or some other kind of majorly expensive engine failure!

Of all the issues none apart from the ones the OP notified the buyer about are what I would consider a non-mechanic seller to know about apart from the handbrake, door handle and fog light which the buyer should have picked up on. I wouldn't expect a non-mechanic/non-dealer to know about the headlight sensor wiring, missing pipes, loose rear shock covers or play in the steering rack arm.

Tyres, sorry but no excuse for that. If you can't check your tyres to spot how worn they are you shouldn't be driving. If they "had wires showing" when bought either should have not bought it or immediately bought new tyres.

I was narked to find our MPS had had new discs (as per the ad description) but the pads were re-used and that was on a car with ~50k on... didn't even cross my mind to go back to the seller!

[fido]

PotatoSalad said:

So can I return a car just because I don't think it handles as well as advertised?

If we're talking about a private sale, misrepresentation requires:

a) A statement of fact
b) Which was relied upon by the other party
c) Which was untrue
d) And thereby caused the other party to suffer loss

I think the 'handling' bit falls over at b) - you should have test driven the car to establish whether or not it handled to your satisfaction. :wink:

Edited by fido on Friday 4th August 10:48

[Kermit power]

ferrisbueller said:

godskitchen said:

I'm done with this thread. 1 mile or 1000000 miles, makes no difference for multiple reasons, chief of which OP did not sell the car to the claimant.

Per above, what if it's his spouse? Might a judge make an allowance for the man in the street who has no legal knowledge? What if the buyer can't read or write?

If the buyer couldn't read or write, he could get someone to deal with the complaint on his behalf, but the complaint should still be in his name. I've done a couple of bits and pieces for my wife, as her eyesight is completely shot, and everything is always in her name with me acting as a proxy.

[ferrisbueller]

Kermit power said:

ferrisbueller said:

godskitchen said:

I'm done with this thread. 1 mile or 1000000 miles, makes no difference for multiple reasons, chief of which OP did not sell the car to the claimant.

Per above, what if it's his spouse? Might a judge make an allowance for the man in the street who has no legal knowledge? What if the buyer can't read or write?

If the buyer couldn't read or write, he could get someone to deal with the complaint on his behalf, but the complaint should still be in his name. I've done a couple of bits and pieces for my wife, as her eyesight is completely shot, and everything is always in her name with me acting as a proxy.

That's what you'd expect. Like others I'm struggling to see the logic here. Just trying to think why they're doing this. Also, whether the definitive slam dunk people have suggested in terms of the claimant's name could be derailed somehow by an over accommodating judge.

[KTF]

I guess the court doesnt read through all the paperwork first to decide if a valid complaint? If they had read through it all in advance then why has it not been binned off?

[godskitchen]

ferrisbueller said:

Merely repeating professional advice received in similar circumstances.

Even if your opening remark is that you don't understand how you're meant to mediate with someone who isn't the person you sold the car to.

Small claims court is a bit of a lottery. Ticking the boxes seemed the right thing to do.

My shoes have Velcro straps. It's safer for everyone that way.

Then you got terrible professional advice.

[godskitchen]

ferrisbueller said:

Per above, what if it's his spouse? Might a judge make an allowance for the man in the street who has no legal knowledge? What if the buyer can't read or write?

Not the "defendants" problem.

My stance would be the same either way, even if the buyer was the claimant. Take it to court. Stand your ground and submit your costs.

Edited by godskitchen on Friday 4th August 13:17

[twoblacklines]

I was really expecting this car to be my old one, seems there are many dogs around then.

My old one was a grey coupe... bought for 7k from a dealership, had to WBAC it for 2k as it nearly killed me twice. Best way I can describe how it felt was when I went over a speedhump, the back of the car felt like it was not attached to the front, and when the car would go flat after hump there would be a knock and a shudder feeling.

Took it back to dealer who told me to fk off.

Couldn't sell privately because I don't like scamming people. £5k loss. Plus £2k lost trying to fix it with new bushes, springs, new sensors because it was slooooooow etc

WBAC auctioned it through BCA and some dealer bought it and sold it for...£7k a month later.

Should have probably swallowed the 2k also and just scrapped it. Pretty sure it was a ringer.

Yet it had full BMW service history, full MOT apparently at BMW... all bmw stamps. Wierdly though when I went to BMW and gave them my key to scan, nothing came up!! It had done 105k but felt like it had done 305k.

Later learnt the dealership staff used to be from BMW so I guess they swiped a BMW stamp from service desk before they left.

So if you can't get a refund from a dealer for an obviously fked car, how the fk do you get one from a private seller?

[ferrisbueller]

godskitchen said:

ferrisbueller said:

Merely repeating professional advice received in similar circumstances.

Even if your opening remark is that you don't understand how you're meant to mediate with someone who isn't the person you sold the car to.

Small claims court is a bit of a lottery. Ticking the boxes seemed the right thing to do.

My shoes have Velcro straps. It's safer for everyone that way.

Then you got terrible professional advice.

This is entirely possible. It's a sad truth that there's no way for the man in the street to know that.

[ferrisbueller]

godskitchen said:

ferrisbueller said:

Per above, what if it's his spouse? Might a judge make an allowance for the man in the street who has no legal knowledge? What if the buyer can't read or write?

Not the "defendants" problem.

My stance would be the same either way, even if the buyer was the claimant. Take it to court. Stand your ground and submit your costs.

Edited by godskitchen on Friday 4th August 13:17

Per above. Maybe the claimant has also received terrible advice.

I really hope it does get chucked out.

[TonyRPH]

Joey Deacon said:

I am absolutely shocked this has even got this far, surely nobody buys a BMW for £2100 and expects it to be perfect and not have any problems ever. As a private seller are you expected to be responsible for any problems the car may have had in the past or in the future?

As far as I am concerned, as a buyer I am responsible for any problems with a car as soon as I hand over the money. If I failed to spot an issue when looking at the car or if it develops a problem in the future that is my problem.

Sadly the problem is - it would seem there are many people out there who do feel they should be getting a new car, even when spending as little as £500.

This doesn't only apply to cars.

One only has to see all the complaints from Ebay sellers for example - who have sold a 2nd hand item and then the buyer has complained because said item has a few blemishes because it's.. wait for it.. second hand.

[vikingaero]

Joey Deacon said:

I am absolutely shocked this has even got this far, surely nobody buys a BMW for £2100 and expects it to be perfect and not have any problems ever. As a private seller are you expected to be responsible for any problems the car may have had in the past or in the future?

As far as I am concerned, as a buyer I am responsible for any problems with a car as soon as I hand over the money. If I failed to spot an issue when looking at the car or if it develops a problem in the future that is my problem.

I sold a brand new, boxed rack 2 weeks ago for £100 - about half the price of new. The way the buyer behaved was that the item was fooked and that it would kill him or his family and that he would be responsible. He reckoned parts wouldn't line up and mean he would have to spend money on rectifying it. It seems there are more mentalists like this than good buyers.

[carl_w]

vikingaero said:

I sold a brand new, boxed rack 2 weeks ago for £100 - about half the price of new. The way the buyer behaved was that the item was fooked and that it would kill him or his family and that he would be responsible

The most important thing when your family is killed is whether you're responsible, obvs.

Sold a bunch of designer goods (shoes, dresses, handbags) on behalf of the missus on eBay and the number of people who expect "as new" condition for a quarter of the retail price is shocking. Ended up letting the buyers keep some of the items for a full refund as it was cheaper than shipping back from Ukraine and relisting. I guess this is the buyer's plan from the outset.

[ferrisbueller]

carl_w said:

vikingaero said:

I sold a brand new, boxed rack 2 weeks ago for £100 - about half the price of new. The way the buyer behaved was that the item was fooked and that it would kill him or his family and that he would be responsible

The most important thing when your family is killed is whether you're responsible, obvs.

Sold a bunch of designer goods (shoes, dresses, handbags) on behalf of the missus on eBay and the number of people who expect "as new" condition for a quarter of the retail price is shocking. Ended up letting the buyers keep some of the items for a full refund as it was cheaper than shipping back from Ukraine and relisting. I guess this is the buyer's plan from the outset.

EBay has become a chancer's delight and the lack of regulation around it means there's not likely to be a change in that in the near future. Their buyer protection policy is pretty shady tbh. It's very much "seller beware", rather than the other way around.

[carl_w]

ferrisbueller said:

EBay has become a chancer's delight and the lack of regulation around it means there's not likely to be a change in that in the near future. Their buyer protection policy is pretty shady tbh. It's very much "seller beware", rather than the other way around.

Although there was the Chanel handbag returned as "dirty" which sold for £100 more the second time round. Some you win, some you lose.

[The Mad Monk]

godskitchen said:

Then you got terrible professional advice.

Oy!

At 09.32 this morning you said "I've done with this thread".

[The Mad Monk]

godskitchen said:

Not the "defendants" problem.

My stance would be the same either way, even if the buyer was the claimant. Take it to court. Stand your ground and submit your costs.

Edited by godskitchen on Friday 4th August 13:17

Have you finished with this thread or not?

[godskitchen]

The Mad Monk said:

Have you finished with this thread or not?

The stupidity keeps drawing me back in.

[ferrisbueller]

The Mad Monk said:

godskitchen said:

Not the "defendants" problem.

My stance would be the same either way, even if the buyer was the claimant. Take it to court. Stand your ground and submit your costs.

Edited by godskitchen on Friday 4th August 13:17

Have you finished with this thread or not?

In fairness I asked more questions.

[Efbe]

muussaah said:

The way I think of it is... if she does win this all based on whatever I have written in my ad which was an honest description just so we all know but of course I am no expert so kind of contradicting?

I could possibly go out and buy a lamborghini, drive it for a month, put around 1000-2000 miles on it, open up a case with the courts to say its not as described has a few faults and get my money back?! that way I have had an exotic car for free whereby that would have possibly cost me £1500 maybe more depending on the mileage increase! surely if she wins I could also charge her around £30 per day rental or something along those lines for the time used, think someone here has mentioned this in the earlier posts.

I think at the face of it I will go in, have my say and just see what the outcome is...

OP, have done smallclaims route before, and the judge was awesome, very professional, and gave a very good decision.

Dress up incredibly smartly. Be very very polite. Your Honour etc. Listen very hard to his questions, make sure you completely understand the question before answering. Don't make anything up. Do take every piece of paperwork. Photo copy it all twice, so on the day you can hand one copy to him and one to the claimant.
You will win, so be calm and collected.