Sold a car privately - COURT ACTION
Discussion
V8LM said:
You can help him with his PS3 then - http://www.fixya.com/support/t8481311-trying_conne...
Tyre Tread said:
Firstly, it won't be a Magistrate as the hearing will be held in the County Court. Magistrates deal with criminal cases not civil cases.
A District Judge or Circuit Judge will preside.
The case is likely to be heard in Chambers but it is still a public hearing and anyone can attend but only the parties or their duly authorised representatives acknowledged by the Court may address the Court. However the parties may take a person to support them, usually known as a McKenzie friend. Usually a McKenzie friend can't address the Court unless the Judge feels that it is appropriate or may be detrimental to the party's case if he doesn't allow it. (This could be useful for you IF MR X and Mrs X both want to address the Court - see below*)
The first thing to establish is that the Court is dealing with the correct parties to a case. Typically the Judge will ask who represents which party and in what capacity. It's at this point that I believe the Judge SHOULD throw out this case.
IF THE CLAIM IS ISSUED IN THE NAME OF MRS X AND THE RECEIPT WAS MADE OUT TO MR Y THEN MRS X HAS NO RIGHT OF CLAIM AGAINST THE CLAIMANT. SHE IS NOT PARTY TO THE TRANSACTION.
Even if Mr X is present, the Judge should at least adjourn the case to allow for an application to be made for the Claimant details to be amended. However, I suspect that the Judge will merely throw out the case.
IF the case gets past that stage I will be amazed.
I'm sure a legally qualified person could comment upon agency - i.e. whether Mr Y acted as Agent for Mrs X in the purchase and the validity of that claim if the receipt is made out to Mr Y.
If the Judge decided to throw out the claim and has read the papers anyway (s)he may make some remarks about the likelihood of success of such a case were it to be brought by the correct claimant. Or (s)he may not.
Remember, the Judge has to follow the law and not just what he feels is right on the day.
If the case continues to be heard in full make sure you have a very clear picture of all of the facts and stick to them. Take a friend to make notes and help you to make salient points and ask to ask relevant and specific questions when you get your turn to question the claimant.
The 4000 miles pout on the car are hugely in your favour. Remind me how you know it has done such alarge mileage in a short space of time please?
IANAL but have represented my previous employers business in about 100 small claims cases.
Hi I first noticed it when the she sent me the garage report, Attached below is what I will be taking with me, my service invoice, advert, sale receipt etc.A District Judge or Circuit Judge will preside.
The case is likely to be heard in Chambers but it is still a public hearing and anyone can attend but only the parties or their duly authorised representatives acknowledged by the Court may address the Court. However the parties may take a person to support them, usually known as a McKenzie friend. Usually a McKenzie friend can't address the Court unless the Judge feels that it is appropriate or may be detrimental to the party's case if he doesn't allow it. (This could be useful for you IF MR X and Mrs X both want to address the Court - see below*)
The first thing to establish is that the Court is dealing with the correct parties to a case. Typically the Judge will ask who represents which party and in what capacity. It's at this point that I believe the Judge SHOULD throw out this case.
IF THE CLAIM IS ISSUED IN THE NAME OF MRS X AND THE RECEIPT WAS MADE OUT TO MR Y THEN MRS X HAS NO RIGHT OF CLAIM AGAINST THE CLAIMANT. SHE IS NOT PARTY TO THE TRANSACTION.
Even if Mr X is present, the Judge should at least adjourn the case to allow for an application to be made for the Claimant details to be amended. However, I suspect that the Judge will merely throw out the case.
IF the case gets past that stage I will be amazed.
I'm sure a legally qualified person could comment upon agency - i.e. whether Mr Y acted as Agent for Mrs X in the purchase and the validity of that claim if the receipt is made out to Mr Y.
If the Judge decided to throw out the claim and has read the papers anyway (s)he may make some remarks about the likelihood of success of such a case were it to be brought by the correct claimant. Or (s)he may not.
Remember, the Judge has to follow the law and not just what he feels is right on the day.
If the case continues to be heard in full make sure you have a very clear picture of all of the facts and stick to them. Take a friend to make notes and help you to make salient points and ask to ask relevant and specific questions when you get your turn to question the claimant.
- If the Judge agrees (unlikely) to proceed with the case with Mr Y as the Claimant then Mrs X should not be able to represent him. He should represent himself. (Even if Mr Y is there he is unlikely to be prepared enough to do so effectively if he was expecting Mrs X to do so on his behalf). The other party not presenting the Claimant's case could be a witness BUT, if they did not declare a witness would be attending in the disclosure docs and did nit supply a witness statement then it would be unreasonable and out of the normal process for them to be allowed to do so.
The 4000 miles pout on the car are hugely in your favour. Remind me how you know it has done such alarge mileage in a short space of time please?
IANAL but have represented my previous employers business in about 100 small claims cases.
Edited by Tyre Tread on Thursday 3rd August 16:42
Edited by muussaah on Thursday 3rd August 18:25
Edited by muussaah on Thursday 3rd August 19:46
saaby93 said:
Vaud said:
saaby93 said:
SantaBarbara said:
My worry with this thread, is that the other party may find it and use the knowledge for her own purposes
I cant see how. It's basically saying the car was as described. Theyve used it for 4k miles then decided to ask for their money backHow can that hold water?
Trouble is you never know whether the judge/magistrate is having a bad day
carl_w said:
muussaah said:
Heres the email from the garage, seems like this airbag module controls quite a bit however I have spoken to my mechanic and he seems to think that it was replaced and has become faulty as his machine would definitely pick this up... strange
LOL, anyone could have knocked that up in Word. Who is Kim? I thought the buyer was Christopher and the sister was Sacha. Edited by muussaah on Thursday 3rd August 17:36
Getragdogleg said:
Since rather a lot of people now know you are going to be at court on the 22nd I would suggest you make sure someone is at your house to keep an eye on it while you are not there.
The least of my concerns lol, I live on a very busy rd and have couple mates who live accross so will just have them keep an eye 
Tyre Tread said:
saaby93 said:
ferrisbueller said:
Accept the offer of mediation. It reflects positively even if you don't reach a resolution.
Are you allowed to open mediation with 'I want £100 for being here wasting my time' speedking31 said:
This is still not clear to me.
In the statement posted at 18:05 the OP says "I did NOT sell this vehicle to the above claimant." and then "I responded back to Mr Maggs (claimant)".
I thought Mr Maggs was the person you sold the car to?
Correct, I did NOT sell the car to the woman who is the claimant noted on the court paperwork, the letter ended with Mr Maggs' signature who I am sure did not write the letter it seems as though its his sister (claimant) acting on his behalf however the actual CLAIMANT should be Mr Maggs and NOT his sister regardless of representation or not. It's what all if not most of the peopls here seem to think and of course makes sense!In the statement posted at 18:05 the OP says "I did NOT sell this vehicle to the above claimant." and then "I responded back to Mr Maggs (claimant)".
I thought Mr Maggs was the person you sold the car to?
V8LM said:
Any substance behind the "despite his initial acceptance of my complaint" ?
When she rang me she was very abrupt and just said "I want my money back" now naturally some may say F*** off but I was like its sold as seen and Mr Maggs checked the car all over before purchase, she started threatening me with court and I said I will have to think about this all and get back to you because its sold as seen and Mr Maggs didn't even test drive the car, also you have come back to me after a month.Anyway she told me she will give me couple hours to figure out whats what and take it from there, I consulted with a few friends and family members and when she called I simply said sorry I cant help, guys if there was anything wrong with the car I would have told you here, trust me (although you don't know me lol) this car was a great example of a 330ci, I had around £2500 worth of receipts which were spent prior to my ownership anyway, like I said before, I knew it was a good car after having it diagnosed by my mechanic.
Fastdruid said:
V8LM said:
Oil service at 134142
Sold 22/01/17 @ 134167
Garage report 23/02/17 @ 136797
That's 2630 miles, not 4000?Sold 22/01/17 @ 134167
Garage report 23/02/17 @ 136797
I'm sure we did the calculation against something else but I can't remember with what?! maybe it should have been nearly 3000 miles I dont know but I will confirm the mileage at the hearing and go from there.
Filibuster said:
I didn't see a date or mileage on the report from the garage (post by OP on page 7). Is this accurate?
So by now the claimant(s) seem to be husband and wife. The car was probably driven by their daughter (Kim).
And the mileage driven -2'630 miles / 31 days- is much lower than stated by the OP in the first place. Hmmm....
I'm still a firm believer that there is no comeback at a private sale (especially for a car this age/mileage) and even less so if you have a receipt stating "sold as seen".
But regarding the car: to me it sound like a lemon. And i get the distinct feeling the OP new about it. But it doesn't matter!
Sold as seen. Tough luck!
I would never have advertised such an old car as "performs faultlessly, quick and handles perfectly". This gives a potential trouble maker such a good angle for everything! Also, I agree that an oil and filter change does not constitute as a service. And the receipt from OP's garage clearly states "Labour to fit supplied service parts". My understanding of a service, apart from oil and filter change, is that the mechanic checks for a variety of things and then fits parts as needed or, if something more expensive comes up, advices you to do so. If you provide the garage with oil, oil filter, air filter, pollen filter and ask them to do just fit those, you clearly don't want a big bill (understandably as the OP wanted to sell the car within the next days or so).
Again, it would have been up the buyer to check this with the OP BEFORE the sale, but I wouldn't have described the car as "just serviced" in the ad.
Probably the wife who is mad about her husband buying a lemon and now trying everything. I feel kind of sorry for the husband...
Also, the proper way to handle such a scenario would be to pass the car onto the next buyer. Like the OP did! (well, don't advertise it as driving perfectly, etc.) State all the faults, advertise cheaply, take the hit and learn the hard way to proper inspect a car prior to buying it, but get rid of it asap. No way a car at that price range is worth fighting over in court!
I know the car was perfect and if they'd have rung me the next day complaining etc I would have had a different view totally, fact is when someone calls back after a month you really don't know how that car is coming back your way, I just have this feeling they have done something with it resulting in numerous faults hence why I am fighting for it, its the principle, he viewed and didn't want to test drive, surely if he thought it was nothing more of a dog he would have noticed this whilst he viewed it, he was telling me he's had a few before and knows what hes looking at etc.So by now the claimant(s) seem to be husband and wife. The car was probably driven by their daughter (Kim).
And the mileage driven -2'630 miles / 31 days- is much lower than stated by the OP in the first place. Hmmm....
I'm still a firm believer that there is no comeback at a private sale (especially for a car this age/mileage) and even less so if you have a receipt stating "sold as seen".
But regarding the car: to me it sound like a lemon. And i get the distinct feeling the OP new about it. But it doesn't matter!
Sold as seen. Tough luck!
I would never have advertised such an old car as "performs faultlessly, quick and handles perfectly". This gives a potential trouble maker such a good angle for everything! Also, I agree that an oil and filter change does not constitute as a service. And the receipt from OP's garage clearly states "Labour to fit supplied service parts". My understanding of a service, apart from oil and filter change, is that the mechanic checks for a variety of things and then fits parts as needed or, if something more expensive comes up, advices you to do so. If you provide the garage with oil, oil filter, air filter, pollen filter and ask them to do just fit those, you clearly don't want a big bill (understandably as the OP wanted to sell the car within the next days or so).
Again, it would have been up the buyer to check this with the OP BEFORE the sale, but I wouldn't have described the car as "just serviced" in the ad.
Probably the wife who is mad about her husband buying a lemon and now trying everything. I feel kind of sorry for the husband...
Also, the proper way to handle such a scenario would be to pass the car onto the next buyer. Like the OP did! (well, don't advertise it as driving perfectly, etc.) State all the faults, advertise cheaply, take the hit and learn the hard way to proper inspect a car prior to buying it, but get rid of it asap. No way a car at that price range is worth fighting over in court!
fido said:
IMO best to say as little as possible - less is more in this situation.
"Sold car to X - here is the receipt. I insisted X take a test drive - he did not take a test drive. X paid for car. End of"
All this 'trust me bruv - it's a great car - spent all this wonga on it" just ruins your defence.
'trust me bruv - it's a great car - spent all this wonga on it" "Sold car to X - here is the receipt. I insisted X take a test drive - he did not take a test drive. X paid for car. End of"
All this 'trust me bruv - it's a great car - spent all this wonga on it" just ruins your defence.
I will keep it short and sweet
PotatoSalad said:
fido said:
PotatoSalad said:
So should the manufacturers and dealers also stop putting that marketing nonsense?
OP is a Private Seller and not a Trader.So can I return a car just because I don't think it handles as well as advertised?
I could possibly go out and buy a lamborghini, drive it for a month, put around 1000-2000 miles on it, open up a case with the courts to say its not as described has a few faults and get my money back?! that way I have had an exotic car for free whereby that would have possibly cost me £1500 maybe more depending on the mileage increase! surely if she wins I could also charge her around £30 per day rental or something along those lines for the time used, think someone here has mentioned this in the earlier posts.
I think at the face of it I will go in, have my say and just see what the outcome is...
Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:
Posting just for updates. I'm interested to see how one of these cases concludes.
OP, please do not bugger off/delete the thread etc before conclusion, like the guy in a parallel case with a Range with a busted gearbox. It reflected badly on him IMO, and probably wound anyone contributing to the thread right up.
of course not, will also help others on here where possible and be involved in other threads etc, such a good community on here. I will keep you all posted with the outcome and any updates up to the hearing OP, please do not bugger off/delete the thread etc before conclusion, like the guy in a parallel case with a Range with a busted gearbox. It reflected badly on him IMO, and probably wound anyone contributing to the thread right up.
So chaps, ITS THE OP!!!
I went in, literally there for 10 minutes and case dismissed!!!! Walked out relieved!
I didnt even get to have a say as the judge focused on the simple fact that she had no contract of law, she gave a letter to the judge which read the money was hers and thats why she was claiming it back however the judge stated the actual buyer is not in court so "I simply don't know what your doing here" and on that basis its dismissed. The ACTUAL claimant is welcome to reapply however judge didn't think it was best as he wasn't present to show any interest attending court to begin with.
She then argued and said she wants him to look into breach of data protection? Judge stated, its very technical and although she can take some course of action its not something which he would recommend due to being too technical and dropped that side of the claim too. Now I assume she's seen this post but looking back I haven't breached any of this anyway, name etc is data protection surely as it was to see her history with the courts etc.
I counter claimed for 2 days off work and judge rewarded 2hrs pay (for hearing only) so £20, paid for my parking
Case aside, I would like to thank you all for your support and helping me remain calm throughout. Of course will share my experiences with others going through a similar phase as I know how stressful it can be... Respect to all of you!!
I went in, literally there for 10 minutes and case dismissed!!!! Walked out relieved!
I didnt even get to have a say as the judge focused on the simple fact that she had no contract of law, she gave a letter to the judge which read the money was hers and thats why she was claiming it back however the judge stated the actual buyer is not in court so "I simply don't know what your doing here" and on that basis its dismissed. The ACTUAL claimant is welcome to reapply however judge didn't think it was best as he wasn't present to show any interest attending court to begin with.
She then argued and said she wants him to look into breach of data protection? Judge stated, its very technical and although she can take some course of action its not something which he would recommend due to being too technical and dropped that side of the claim too. Now I assume she's seen this post but looking back I haven't breached any of this anyway, name etc is data protection surely as it was to see her history with the courts etc.
I counter claimed for 2 days off work and judge rewarded 2hrs pay (for hearing only) so £20, paid for my parking
Case aside, I would like to thank you all for your support and helping me remain calm throughout. Of course will share my experiences with others going through a similar phase as I know how stressful it can be... Respect to all of you!!
Centurion07 said:
Couple of questions...
1. What was the breach of the DPA about?
2. There COULD possibly be a case to answer if the actual buyer can be arsed to go through with it all...?
She claims that I have let her name out on this thread and email address which I have gone back on and cant see anything specific apart from her name however I have today spoken with CAB and they have told me there is nothing to worry about as its open information plus it was done with the intention of finding out whether she had any previous history such cases.1. What was the breach of the DPA about?
2. There COULD possibly be a case to answer if the actual buyer can be arsed to go through with it all...?
When the judge asked me for the counter claim and I was awarded the £20 I did say I will happily drop the £20 if shes forgets this whole thing and then she intervened stating I have disclosed her email and name etc to which then the judge told her to be quiet as I was being helpful and she needs to hear me out, that in itself was VERY satisfying!
If she takes me to court again for DPA then so be it, the stage fright I had has now gone and will be confident from here on, for those of you asking the fees are as follows:-
£70 to apply for a case
£170 for hearing
£130 garage invoice payment
£20 loss of earnings
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