RE: Honda Civic Type R (FK8): Driven
Discussion
Rick1.8t said:
Subaru used to offer a 'Spec D' (correct me if I am wrong, that was off the top of my head) with a smaller spoiler and slightly more reserved styling than the normal STI but all of the same mechanical bits.
I wonder if it would be possible to remove the huge boot spoiler as I think it would look rather good without it, unless that is it actually provides an aerodynamic effect and you die above a certain speed without it?
It ticks a lot of boxes for me though this car, especially as the Golf is very, very bland and the Focus RS really not much more interesting to look at, especially with 'ST Line' cars all over the place now as ford try to capitalise in the same way the germans do by writing 'amg' 's-line' or 'M' on everything and anything (sure, that works very well for a lot of the market and is part of the appeal before somebody jumps up to shout that point out but it is nice to see a car stand out from the run of the mill diesels etc)
If I didn't miss it from the article, I wonder how many will make it into the UK, especially as lease / pcp deals dont stack up nearly as well as the competition.
I was thinking along exactly the same lines. From memory, the spec D STi was available only in subdued colours and had the rear spoiler deleted, I seem to remember it came with a sunroof and leather interior too.I wonder if it would be possible to remove the huge boot spoiler as I think it would look rather good without it, unless that is it actually provides an aerodynamic effect and you die above a certain speed without it?
It ticks a lot of boxes for me though this car, especially as the Golf is very, very bland and the Focus RS really not much more interesting to look at, especially with 'ST Line' cars all over the place now as ford try to capitalise in the same way the germans do by writing 'amg' 's-line' or 'M' on everything and anything (sure, that works very well for a lot of the market and is part of the appeal before somebody jumps up to shout that point out but it is nice to see a car stand out from the run of the mill diesels etc)
If I didn't miss it from the article, I wonder how many will make it into the UK, especially as lease / pcp deals dont stack up nearly as well as the competition.
Edited by Rick1.8t on Tuesday 13th June 20:52
A 'discreet' version of this Civic would be perfect. Those customers scared off to VW and Audi dealerships by the looks might take the Civic more seriously, allowing Honda to capture buyers from both ends of the extrovert/introvert spectrum!
it seems like Type R's have always been marmite cars... you either didn't like the peeky power delivery and screaming engine or you loved it...nowadays it seems you either love or hate the looks.....perhaps they should just stick this engine in an ep3 and then everyone would be happy?
davidcharles said:
it seems like Type R's have always been marmite cars... you either didn't like the peeky power delivery and screaming engine or you loved it...nowadays it seems you either love or hate the looks.....perhaps they should just stick this engine in an ep3 and then everyone would be happy?
Back in 2003 a colleague ordered the Civic Type R and I ordered a 172 cup. Much jousting about which was the better car pre-delivery. I met up with him at head office about 3 weeks after we'd had the cars and did a swap for a drive. I liked the Type R but couldn't have lived with it. He loved the Clio and regretted buying the Type R. It was all about that v-tech and living with it day to day.This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
Trophy Husband said:
Back in 2003 a colleague ordered the Civic Type R and I ordered a 172 cup. Much jousting about which was the better car pre-delivery. I met up with him at head office about 3 weeks after we'd had the cars and did a swap for a drive. I liked the Type R but couldn't have lived with it. He loved the Clio and regretted buying the Type R. It was all about that v-tech and living with it day to day.
This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
Flipside is 2004, i test drove both the Renault (was it the 182 then) and the Civic and was about to place an order for the CTR when i changed minds and purchased the DC5This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
lemmingjames said:
Trophy Husband said:
Back in 2003 a colleague ordered the Civic Type R and I ordered a 172 cup. Much jousting about which was the better car pre-delivery. I met up with him at head office about 3 weeks after we'd had the cars and did a swap for a drive. I liked the Type R but couldn't have lived with it. He loved the Clio and regretted buying the Type R. It was all about that v-tech and living with it day to day.
This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
Flipside is 2004, i test drove both the Renault (was it the 182 then) and the Civic and was about to place an order for the CTR when i changed minds and purchased the DC5This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
Trophy Husband said:
Back in 2003 a colleague ordered the Civic Type R and I ordered a 172 cup. Much jousting about which was the better car pre-delivery. I met up with him at head office about 3 weeks after we'd had the cars and did a swap for a drive. I liked the Type R but couldn't have lived with it. He loved the Clio and regretted buying the Type R. It was all about that v-tech and living with it day to day.
Interestingly, the torque curves of those two engines aren't that different, it's just that the Civic has another 1,500rpm (&25bhp) to play with.Where the difference lay (esp. with the Cup) was weight - c.1,000kg vs 1,200kg. So the driver felt the need to work the Civic harder to get the same performance, and the peakier nature of the Civic made the mid-range FEEL less potent. (Out-of-factory VTEC mapping probably didn't help either)
Trophy Husband said:
Back in 2003 a colleague ordered the Civic Type R and I ordered a 172 cup. Much jousting about which was the better car pre-delivery. I met up with him at head office about 3 weeks after we'd had the cars and did a swap for a drive. I liked the Type R but couldn't have lived with it. He loved the Clio and regretted buying the Type R. It was all about that v-tech and living with it day to day.
This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
well, the isuzu looks very nice, perhaps not quite as sporty as the type r tho...This new one's a cracker in my opinion. It would be a close one for me between the RS Megane and this if I was in the market for a new hot hatch which I am sadly not. I am in the market for a Isuzu D-Max Double cab!! How dull is that?
Ahbefive said:
Do you honestly think that the only benefits of awd are off the mark straightline stuff?
In the wet the difference is night and day and powering out of a corner in the dry is also a vastly different experience.
I appreciate that you're now a seasoned track driver so you know your stuff In the wet the difference is night and day and powering out of a corner in the dry is also a vastly different experience.
I have nothing against 4wd, particularly on the road. 4wd brings a lot of traction and more crucially it facilitates traction management, especially in the wet. I am glad 4wd exists as I believe in choice.
However, for my particular needs, 4wd is no good. Please note, I have said for my particular needs. I track my car pretty much all year round and worse than that, it's also my DD. Which obviously shouldn't work. But it kind of does.
The way it works is by having a lighter package that is consumable friendly both in terms of cost and in the ability to do long(ish) sessions without overheating the tyres/brakes. The fact that the car is neutral is just a bonus.
As for performance, a car is only as quick as it's front outside tyre, at least up to the apex. And lateral grip is proportional to weight. 4wd brings nothing but weight up to the traction zone as you're off the throttle. That's basic traction circle rationale here.
So, past the apex, things get a little less rosy and that's precisely why I insist on 2wd, it being RWD or FWD, I'd rather be slow but use skill / strategy / LSD / modulation / trail braking to deploy power rather than rely on superior inherent traction and crucially, carry the additional weight. I'd rather get it wrong often and get the occasional reward than have a point and squirt. But that's a personal choice, a subjective one if you like, a bit like looks (if that's important).
What makes an experience vastly different is not which wheels are driven but set up. There are some brilliantly set up 4wd, FWD and RWD cars but conversely, some terribly set up 4wd, FWD and RWD (IE most road cars IME).
Compulsory photo of course:
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 15th June 10:09
Indeed entering an apex is rather similar in each layout, the difference is having the ability to power out from an apex which is where a fwd layout generally struggles. In your picture you are showing lift off oversteer (which is also fun) but it is a very different experience to power oversteer or having plenty of grip to power out smoothly. With a good awd car all 3 of these cornering styles are possible depending on corner entrance speeds and levels of grip whereas with fwd you are generally limiting yourself to just 1 or 2.
It's just another string to a cars bow and for me it means fwd gives you less options of what to do at the limit putting it at the bottom of the pack in terms of layout. I do accept that the Megane and CTR are still great fun cars though but to suggest awd adds nothing but weight is just incorrect.
It's just another string to a cars bow and for me it means fwd gives you less options of what to do at the limit putting it at the bottom of the pack in terms of layout. I do accept that the Megane and CTR are still great fun cars though but to suggest awd adds nothing but weight is just incorrect.
I really like it! The best Type-R since the FD2 from about 10 years ago.
I'll make a move for this new FK8 once depreciation does its thing. Hopefully the legendary Honda build quality and reliability is still there and it isn't too expensive to run.
I'll have mine in black with bronze Volk CE28s wrapped in Advan AD08R tyres.
I'll make a move for this new FK8 once depreciation does its thing. Hopefully the legendary Honda build quality and reliability is still there and it isn't too expensive to run.
I'll have mine in black with bronze Volk CE28s wrapped in Advan AD08R tyres.
Edited by EK9_CTR on Thursday 15th June 11:10
Ahbefive said:
Indeed entering an apex is rather similar in each layout, the difference is having the ability to power out from an apex which is where a fwd layout generally struggles. In your picture you are showing lift off oversteer (which is also fun) but it is a very different experience to power oversteer or having plenty of grip to power out smoothly. With a good awd car all 3 of these cornering styles are possible depending on corner entrance speeds and levels of grip whereas with fwd you are generally limiting yourself to just 1 or 2.
It's just another string to a cars bow and for me it means fwd gives you less options of what to do at the limit putting it at the bottom of the pack in terms of layout. I do accept that the Megane and CTR are still great fun cars though but to suggest awd adds nothing but weight is just incorrect.
If you have plenty of lat grip at the apex that's only because you left a lot on the table. You should have no adhesion left at the apex (that's what being at the limit is), and in which case traction only comes back when you unwind the lock and free up adhesion again for the benefit of traction, irrespective of number of wheels driven. 4wd can't find contact patch friction if it's not there! Again, that's traction circle fundamentals.It's just another string to a cars bow and for me it means fwd gives you less options of what to do at the limit putting it at the bottom of the pack in terms of layout. I do accept that the Megane and CTR are still great fun cars though but to suggest awd adds nothing but weight is just incorrect.
It's not so much about what 4wd adds but sadly what it takes away (lateral grip, lightness and predictability).
If I want power oversteer, I go RWD. Superb traction with lighter weight and predictability (unlike 4wd, you know precisely which axle is going to lose traction first) and adjustability. Sadly, not many RWD road cars are trackable out of the box.
4wd also adds traction (at the cost of lateral grip of course because of the added weight), which, again, I do NOT want as with it comes extra weight, which, for me at least is the enemy, particularly 200kgs of it if you compare say a FRS and a Megane. Not many people favour 4wd on track for that reason. As for road use, the prime limiting factors will always be traffic, line of sight and licence preservation. This puts 4wd in an absurd no man's land IME but I am totally happy if that's not the case for others. So that approach is correct for me, but obviously not for everyone, we still fall into that subjectivity thing again, don't we ?
This is not lift off over-steer btw, it's simply turning in on the brakes, but same effect of exploiting weight transfer to rotate the rear axle. Associated with that, the Megane's traction is simply incredible, particularly in the wet, but it does take throttle commitment to keep the LSD on the boil. Again, very rewarding. I believe the FRS now comes with a front LSD, not surprised at all.
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 15th June 11:21
Agree to disagree. The last thing an FRS needs is a more grippy and pointy front end and I wasn't only hinting at preferring that car.
There are far lighter awd cars than a Megane is, a prop shaft, diff and pair of driveshafts are what 100kgs? Manufacturers could save more weight than that elsewhere. My Impreza was awd and still over 100kgs lighter than a Megane. Handling is indeed a subjective thing but for me fwd is bottom of the pile even though there are indeed lots of fantastic fwd cars and cars that I would buy. The thing i, I always find myself thinking that the only things they offer over an Evo or Impreza are comparatively cheap running costs.
There are far lighter awd cars than a Megane is, a prop shaft, diff and pair of driveshafts are what 100kgs? Manufacturers could save more weight than that elsewhere. My Impreza was awd and still over 100kgs lighter than a Megane. Handling is indeed a subjective thing but for me fwd is bottom of the pile even though there are indeed lots of fantastic fwd cars and cars that I would buy. The thing i, I always find myself thinking that the only things they offer over an Evo or Impreza are comparatively cheap running costs.
Marty Funkhouser said:
5.8 seconds to 60??
All that styling and exhausts going on and its that slow?? A sheep in wolfs clothing.
That's the limitations of physics on a FWD.All that styling and exhausts going on and its that slow?? A sheep in wolfs clothing.
Find me a production performance FWD which will do it in close to 5 or under. I'm happy to be proved wrong but I don't think they exist.
Marty Funkhouser said:
5.8 seconds to 60??
All that styling and exhausts going on and its that slow?? A sheep in wolfs clothing.
I think it has quite a bit of go, if it's faster than the outgoing version anyway. Faster than a few exotics round a track.All that styling and exhausts going on and its that slow?? A sheep in wolfs clothing.
I should add that 0-60 sprints or track days are not my thing, just pointing out that there are other measures of a cars performance than 0-60.
I think the 0-60 shows thats things are maybe reaching the limits of very powerful FWD cars. I think in other scenarios it'll be a real rocket.
I didn't like the previous one...then saw a few on the road...and thought they looked much better. Very colour sensitive too, so i wonder if this will be the same.
it's mainly the rear i have a problem with.
In some pics, it looks really good, for example, in this rather dark picture...
Quite nicely proportioned, side on.
Also, that annoying guy on Car Throttle did a video of him sitting at 272kmh, relatively easily on the autobahn, (168.64mph) so the 169mph top speed seems to be doable. (4 mins-ish in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_FA3HWJdKE
Bloody fast for £30k!
I didn't like the previous one...then saw a few on the road...and thought they looked much better. Very colour sensitive too, so i wonder if this will be the same.
it's mainly the rear i have a problem with.
In some pics, it looks really good, for example, in this rather dark picture...
Quite nicely proportioned, side on.
Also, that annoying guy on Car Throttle did a video of him sitting at 272kmh, relatively easily on the autobahn, (168.64mph) so the 169mph top speed seems to be doable. (4 mins-ish in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_FA3HWJdKE
Bloody fast for £30k!
M1C said:
I think the 0-60 shows thats things are maybe reaching the limits of very powerful FWD cars. I think in other scenarios it'll be a real rocket.
I didn't like the previous one...then saw a few on the road...and thought they looked much better. Very colour sensitive too, so i wonder if this will be the same.
it's mainly the rear i have a problem with.
In some pics, it looks really good, for example, in this rather dark picture...
Quite nicely proportioned, side on.
Also, that annoying guy on Car Throttle did a video of him sitting at 272kmh, relatively easily on the autobahn, (168.64mph) so the 169mph top speed seems to be doable. (4 mins-ish in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_FA3HWJdKE
Bloody fast for £30k!
i want one badly I didn't like the previous one...then saw a few on the road...and thought they looked much better. Very colour sensitive too, so i wonder if this will be the same.
it's mainly the rear i have a problem with.
In some pics, it looks really good, for example, in this rather dark picture...
Quite nicely proportioned, side on.
Also, that annoying guy on Car Throttle did a video of him sitting at 272kmh, relatively easily on the autobahn, (168.64mph) so the 169mph top speed seems to be doable. (4 mins-ish in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_FA3HWJdKE
Bloody fast for £30k!
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