RE: BMW M3 (E46): You Know You Want To
Discussion
I can't speak for what it's like running a standard M3 on a budget, I've had my CSL for nearly 2 years, don't think I'd ever sell it because it's such a special car to drive. In the 2 years I've owned it it's not been too bad, however, as I work for a company that has BMW dealers in the network I'm lucky enough to get preferential rates when it comes to maintenance which is a big bonus.
I had a standard E46 M3 manual coupe for 2 years and never got on with it, it was very comfortable but never felt connected to the road, coming off older Japanese cars where you felt everything it was like sitting on a sofa watching the world go by. IMO the manual gearbox wasn't great, too notchy, it just felt big and heavy. Of all the cars I've owned the M3 was the one I felt the most underwhelmed in, there just wasn't any excitement for me
I've had two, a CS SMG and now a 'standard' manual.
They do feel heavy these days compared to more moden stuff but that's just down to the super light, quick electric steering they all have.
I did prefer the slightly faster rack in the CS over standard, I've done a few modifications to mine (with a Supercharger kit on the way
) to make it a bit sharper. I still think they are the best looking of the E36/46/90/F80, the proportions just look so right to me.
Regarding maintenace, general stuff isn't too bad if you use a reputable specialist. It's obviously more than a 'normal' 3 series but not too bad. Parts are more expensive obviously (Though working at BMW means I get a preferential rate). I have spent more than it cost to buy my car in over all maintenance though. InspII + Subframe repair/reinforcement, small amount of rust repair, Lambda Sensors, Headgasket with new seals and fixings everywhere and a deep clean of the head. Not all at the same time luckily, total = approx £8000 over 3 years, plus another 2-3k in general maintenance of tyres, oil changes/services etc. Plus upgrades.
They do feel heavy these days compared to more moden stuff but that's just down to the super light, quick electric steering they all have.
I did prefer the slightly faster rack in the CS over standard, I've done a few modifications to mine (with a Supercharger kit on the way
) to make it a bit sharper. I still think they are the best looking of the E36/46/90/F80, the proportions just look so right to me.Regarding maintenace, general stuff isn't too bad if you use a reputable specialist. It's obviously more than a 'normal' 3 series but not too bad. Parts are more expensive obviously (Though working at BMW means I get a preferential rate). I have spent more than it cost to buy my car in over all maintenance though. InspII + Subframe repair/reinforcement, small amount of rust repair, Lambda Sensors, Headgasket with new seals and fixings everywhere and a deep clean of the head. Not all at the same time luckily, total = approx £8000 over 3 years, plus another 2-3k in general maintenance of tyres, oil changes/services etc. Plus upgrades.
I love mine. But if you want to keep them tip top, it's expensive. Like any fifteen your old car, they need tlc - mine has now had new brakes, suspension, vanos rebuild, boot floor reinforcement. It has 55k miles and is concours condition.
The engine noise is just fantastic. Remapped by Evolve to 357bhp with one of their Eventuri air intakes, the induction noise is intoxicating. It's quite old school which gives it tons of character.
The engine noise is just fantastic. Remapped by Evolve to 357bhp with one of their Eventuri air intakes, the induction noise is intoxicating. It's quite old school which gives it tons of character.
Front bottom said:
AllOurYesterdays said:
I've just been looking at these on the classifieds, the £8995 manual cabriolet with 96k miles on it seems cheap, any obvious red flags?
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
30k miles/3 year delay between services pretty strange?
It should be 15k miles or 2 years, whicheber comes sooner - as with the rest of the petrol e46 range. I would walk away from that one.https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
30k miles/3 year delay between services pretty strange?
Edited by Front bottom on Thursday 15th June 16:36
Make no mistake though these are not cheap cars to maintain and run
I had mine for 1.5 years and spent about £2500 on maintenance / preventive maintenance plus I had BMW repair the subframe under a 'good will'
Really gutted to sell but it was costing too much especially the miles I suddenly started doing. Especially now I look how much it would be worth now.
Mine was a 2004 manual coupe in silver grey metallic YC04 SOM where are you now
J4CKO said:
Everyone goes on about the sound of these, one went past the other night and I thought it sounded crap, do you have to be in it ?
Comes alive over 6ka few tweeks and they sound immense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qju9iEFqp3Y)
probably not so good as a daily driver like that though
Beautiful cars, but they cannot be run on a budget, at least if you're not doing the work yourself. A colleague ran one for 3 years, and reckoned it cost him about £2k a year to keep serviced and maintained properly. As I said, that's relying on professional labour and not being prepared to ignore issues or let things slide.
I had a couple of passenger rides in it. That engine is worth it on its own
I had a couple of passenger rides in it. That engine is worth it on its own
I bought a manual 2003 E46 M3 coupe 4 years ago for £9k. That was the most I could afford and I got a lower than average example with full Service History.
I bought it from a dealer who had obviously smartened it up cosmetically to get a sale, soon after purchase I spent around £1,500 on the braking system, refurbishing the callipers, new discs and pads all round and fitted Michelin Pilot Sports. Recently I had to change the starter motor and a new battery. In total, I've spent around £2,500 on it. I took the hit on these items because I knew the engine was good and the bodywork was mint.
It now has 59,000 miles on it and if someone were to offer me £15K, I would probably decline the offer. These cars are just so good, I can't imagine what else I would buy with the money.
I believe the effort BMW put into this car was the last time when they truly believed in making a product that was going to give a driving experience better than anything else on the road at the time. The way this car is set up, its handling and power, it was miles better than anything in its price range at the time it was new.
My M3 is 14 years old now, yet it has just the right balance of modernity and the analogue feel of driving a machine. I can put it on cruise control, turn on the air-con, switch on the Harmon Kardon sound system and glide on the motorway at 70mph easily returning 30mpg. If I am so inclined, I can put it in Sport mode, hit the pedal hard and listen to the rasping V6, rev to almost 8000 RPM and push me back into the wonderful, electronically adjustable leather seats and put the front wheels exactly where I want them.
Practically, I can transport a family of 5 and all our luggage and arrive the other side of the country without anyone complaining about the ride. Aesthetically, the car still looks good with timeless lines and muscular arches and bonnet bulges just discreet enough to be purposeful but not in your face trying too hard.
Accepted its not so good around urban towns, but what performance car is?
I think these cars will go up in value at a minimum of £1,000 per year for models with 80k and less on them. My only regret is that I didn't get into a CSL when I had the chance.
I bought it from a dealer who had obviously smartened it up cosmetically to get a sale, soon after purchase I spent around £1,500 on the braking system, refurbishing the callipers, new discs and pads all round and fitted Michelin Pilot Sports. Recently I had to change the starter motor and a new battery. In total, I've spent around £2,500 on it. I took the hit on these items because I knew the engine was good and the bodywork was mint.
It now has 59,000 miles on it and if someone were to offer me £15K, I would probably decline the offer. These cars are just so good, I can't imagine what else I would buy with the money.
I believe the effort BMW put into this car was the last time when they truly believed in making a product that was going to give a driving experience better than anything else on the road at the time. The way this car is set up, its handling and power, it was miles better than anything in its price range at the time it was new.
My M3 is 14 years old now, yet it has just the right balance of modernity and the analogue feel of driving a machine. I can put it on cruise control, turn on the air-con, switch on the Harmon Kardon sound system and glide on the motorway at 70mph easily returning 30mpg. If I am so inclined, I can put it in Sport mode, hit the pedal hard and listen to the rasping V6, rev to almost 8000 RPM and push me back into the wonderful, electronically adjustable leather seats and put the front wheels exactly where I want them.
Practically, I can transport a family of 5 and all our luggage and arrive the other side of the country without anyone complaining about the ride. Aesthetically, the car still looks good with timeless lines and muscular arches and bonnet bulges just discreet enough to be purposeful but not in your face trying too hard.
Accepted its not so good around urban towns, but what performance car is?
I think these cars will go up in value at a minimum of £1,000 per year for models with 80k and less on them. My only regret is that I didn't get into a CSL when I had the chance.
Edited by lovem3 on Friday 16th June 16:02
I fear I missed my window on these.
I wanted one for quite a while but being stubborn, refused to pay £1500 a year insurance when I was almost 30, did next to no miles a year, garaged the car and had over 10 years NCB.
I bought a 330 instead which was half the price and a few thou less to purchase at the time.
Within 6 months I'd met a woman and moved - the postcode meant the insurance on an M was stupidly cheap but finances changed, house, commitments etc came and I never got the chance to upgrade the 330 to an M3
I can't see the E9X model being as useable as these, they're just too departed from the base models so expensive to run.
By the time the baby is grown enough and i have spare change for a weekend toy, the E46's will all be dead or in temperature controlled garages with 6 figure price tags.
I wanted one for quite a while but being stubborn, refused to pay £1500 a year insurance when I was almost 30, did next to no miles a year, garaged the car and had over 10 years NCB.
I bought a 330 instead which was half the price and a few thou less to purchase at the time.
Within 6 months I'd met a woman and moved - the postcode meant the insurance on an M was stupidly cheap but finances changed, house, commitments etc came and I never got the chance to upgrade the 330 to an M3
I can't see the E9X model being as useable as these, they're just too departed from the base models so expensive to run.
By the time the baby is grown enough and i have spare change for a weekend toy, the E46's will all be dead or in temperature controlled garages with 6 figure price tags.
I have never personally owned an M-product, but to state that an M3 sounds 'crap' is utter nonsense.
Get yourself to the Nurburgring, Spa etc and listen to a fully lit straight six rung out; it's a very special noise indeeed and right up there with Stuttgart's finest... Or any V8 come to think of it.
Get yourself to the Nurburgring, Spa etc and listen to a fully lit straight six rung out; it's a very special noise indeeed and right up there with Stuttgart's finest... Or any V8 come to think of it.
Scottie - NW said:
This is one of those lines you see a lot on PH, and it's just wrong.
When a car is a 40k new M3 then at the point in it's life cycle when it is worth that much you have to use dealers at dealer service rates and prices and end up paying high parts prices to keep the warranty and so on.
As cars get older, more and more non OE parts become available for them, especially the most common ones, to fix known issues. The cost of the parts themselves also tend to reduce over time, as more and more manufacturers make them and push the price lower.
Specialists are then able to take care of them at lower labour rates, and sometimes work out better ways to do the jobs more cost effectively, on some cars whereas a dealer may say that's an engine out job etc, specialists know ways to do it without.
So, although I accept the running costs for a 40k car at 10 years old may be higher than a 20k car at 10 years old, you should still be paying much less for service and parts on a 10 year old M3 than a nearly new one at dealer prices.
Offset by the fact that a new car will probably only need a few basic services for the first 4-5 years but my experience of 10 year old cars is an unending stream of parts wearing out, breaking etc that need replacingWhen a car is a 40k new M3 then at the point in it's life cycle when it is worth that much you have to use dealers at dealer service rates and prices and end up paying high parts prices to keep the warranty and so on.
As cars get older, more and more non OE parts become available for them, especially the most common ones, to fix known issues. The cost of the parts themselves also tend to reduce over time, as more and more manufacturers make them and push the price lower.
Specialists are then able to take care of them at lower labour rates, and sometimes work out better ways to do the jobs more cost effectively, on some cars whereas a dealer may say that's an engine out job etc, specialists know ways to do it without.
So, although I accept the running costs for a 40k car at 10 years old may be higher than a 20k car at 10 years old, you should still be paying much less for service and parts on a 10 year old M3 than a nearly new one at dealer prices.
I really like the E46 M3, searched for one after selling a 981S Boxster - but just couldn't find one that ticked all the boxes (condition / manual / price (£20k give or take) / history / subframe).
Ended up buying a manual 3 door M135i LCI / facelift for peace of mind with warranty etc (and the torque / newness).
Would've been tempted to roll the dice on a similar cheap E46 though - looks like fun!
Ended up buying a manual 3 door M135i LCI / facelift for peace of mind with warranty etc (and the torque / newness).
Would've been tempted to roll the dice on a similar cheap E46 though - looks like fun!
In 2005 I had a 2003 convertible . It was smg which was a mistake .
Last month I bought a 2001 conv. manual which the previous owner had spend 6k on clutch , floor , suspension etc etc . The car passed 100k last week and it is lovely to drive . Wobbles like mad ( torsional stiffness is poor on the vert ) and as my everyday car is a diesel I keep forgetting it will rev past 5k ...
It cost the same as I lost in depreciation on my recently sold f10 m5 in 18 months .
For the money I can't think of a better vert .
Last month I bought a 2001 conv. manual which the previous owner had spend 6k on clutch , floor , suspension etc etc . The car passed 100k last week and it is lovely to drive . Wobbles like mad ( torsional stiffness is poor on the vert ) and as my everyday car is a diesel I keep forgetting it will rev past 5k ...
It cost the same as I lost in depreciation on my recently sold f10 m5 in 18 months .
For the money I can't think of a better vert .
Andy S15 said:
A good while ago I almost bought one of these with an ACS suspension kit. Was going to it after a 2.5L turbo six in a Jap saloon and I just ended up feeling massively underwhelmed. Incredibly dull, lazy feeling (as I'd just come from a turbo) and un-engaging at slow speeds with an absolutely appalling gearbox. Didn't think it sounded very nice either. At the time I'd have rather just had another JZX100, it was the far more interesting car going back to back (but unfortunately it was written off in a rear-ender).
I don't understand some of BMW's design choices. Why mate such a numb, agricultural gearbox to this engine? It needed a nice short positive throw and shorter gearing.
Left feeling quite disappointed. That said, a lot of the ingredients are there so I can see why these are so liked. With the right mods I can see how they'd be great on a track.
I'm a fan of slick manual gearboxes. The manual 'box on these is anything but - as you say.I don't understand some of BMW's design choices. Why mate such a numb, agricultural gearbox to this engine? It needed a nice short positive throw and shorter gearing.
Left feeling quite disappointed. That said, a lot of the ingredients are there so I can see why these are so liked. With the right mods I can see how they'd be great on a track.
Edited by Andy S15 on Friday 16th June 07:54
I changed the gearbox oil and had the clutch delay valve removed, and... it's still not perfect. But.... I like having to work it carefully, taking my time during low speed shifts and easing it into gear - never rushing the changes.
When it gets warmed up though.... The ratios are perfectly judged and that engine thrives on the fast changes (A manual gearbox makes more sense the more you explore that engine imo).
charltjr said:
I love mine. It was always a "bucket list" car and I'm really glad I decided to take the plunge. Maybe it'll cost me a fortune, maybe it won't. At least I'm not spending a lot on depreciation.
Don't ignore the SMG, it's a lot cheaper to fix than it used to be and it's now very easy to download the CSL rev matching software onto it which completely transforms it.
The important thing is to accept it for what it is, it's not some ultra-lightweight stripped out car in the caterham mould, it's one of the world's best ever engines in a sweet handling road car which happens to be very capable on track if that's your thing.
While I agree those words are wasted on people who enjoy playing with a knob or are wannabe driving heroes Don't ignore the SMG, it's a lot cheaper to fix than it used to be and it's now very easy to download the CSL rev matching software onto it which completely transforms it.
The important thing is to accept it for what it is, it's not some ultra-lightweight stripped out car in the caterham mould, it's one of the world's best ever engines in a sweet handling road car which happens to be very capable on track if that's your thing.
. I doubt I'd have a 'stock' manual car over an SMG; it would have to either have a 545i shifter as a minimum or even a CAI ; but at least the latter is easier to do with an SMG in a 'manual' conversion 
. While I like working with a car it's also a car which is let's be honest a bit too quick for today's roads and is good to have some attention on the roads!That car looks like ETA have welded on the plates which is no bad thing ; they stitch them in key areas (the RACP to the inner arch), but those seem to be missing in his arch shots unless they were taken before?
The costs for running an M3 are pricey however and have not changed. ECP do sell parts but some of the parts are substandard despite being branded ; 330i pads being sold instead of M3 parts anyone? You can get Textar M-Spec pads outside of BMW but the cost difference isn't all that. It's a similar story for a few parts ; I've been stung a couple of times including the M3 when trying to go cheap.
Despite what some specialists may say the Inspection Is and IIs are expensive ; I paid £140 in gaskets alone before I even put the oil, filter and shims into the equation. After doing the valve shims even I am debating giving it to a good specialist to check next time ; they are that awkward to do even compared to an S50 engined BMW. It's probably one reason why BMW ditched the shims on later M cars ; even BMW hate doing them, but they can make the difference between a slow M3 and a fast one.
For people thinking they are cheap to own for a DIYer, think again. I've owned mine for 13 months and put almost 10,000 miles onto it. While I've not had big bills like some people my expenditure has not been cheap as the Garage section will show.
Running Costs
Insurance: £390
Minor Breakdown: £277
Tyres: £750
Servicing/Repairs: £2,473
Tax: £471
Upgrades: £1,042
You can take £1k out of the servicing and repairs for the bodywork and another £800 out of the upgrades for the RACP reinforcement. That was with me buying a car with new tyres and new brakes as well!
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