RE: Alfa Romeo Giulia Veloce: Driven

[Ares]

RSchneider said:

The 280PS gasoline inline four turbo is certainly the most "Alfa-ish" choice of the range. However, it still sits in a rather large car for a four-pot. And in certain Continental European markets you only get it with all-wheel-drive, which is a shame and beyond stupid from Alfa marketing. What the "sweet spot" would be is a ~400PS V6 turbo (with all wheel drive option). Of course that will not happen - if V6 + AWD is technically possible at all - since it would just be a software mod away from becoming a QF in disguise. Maybe that other FCA V6 from the Maserati line could be utilized to set it apart. Which would be a logistics and maintenance nightmare of course.

Re quality: The touch point criticism is correct. There are some very stupid, bean counter induced mistakes in the Alfa which would probably not have cost more than 200 USD to avoid and can be rectified with a facelift. Because the Giulia design and materials and how it's put together is fundamentally right.

Which is more than can be said about the Jaguar XE which is a desaster in many, and uncurable ways. The Giulia's interior quality is not unreachable far away from BMW 3 series. Mercedes C is another class and in a way impressive - shame it drives like on valium and the infotainment is simply 10 years behind BMW.

But another thing is also true: The Giulia suffers from electric gremlins, like warning lights going on and off randomly, starter button refusing to do anything, electric windows having their own life. All these things disappear with a reboot/restart and other Fiats also have them, but it is very Italian and one of the reasons Audi/BMW/Mercedes is the choice for anyone but the Alfa enthusiast.

The other is that Alfa is stupid with the list price vs real price; list is way overpriced and FCA is hurting the Giulia with that policy.

Wow, you're a grumpy little bear with a chip on your shoulder.

How is a 400bhp AWD model any more of a 'software mod away' from the equivalent from BMW and Merc?
And AWD for LHD only has been the case with most manufacturers for years. Only in the last 2-3yrs have BMW/Merc really started bringing mainstream AWD versions.

We'll ignore those 'gremlins' as you've almost certainly made them up....

as for the "Audi/BMW/Mercedes is the choice for anyone but the Alfa enthusiast.", I've had BMWs and Mercs for 16 of the last 18years (the other two being 2 Lotus/Lotii/Lotuses/??), and yet, here I am with an order for a Quadrifoglio, having had extended test drives in an M3, C63s and Ghibli S before choosing it.

Go figure

[E65Ross]

Ruskins said:

E65Ross said:

So the new 5 series is just adapted from the old one is it? Errrr....

Well they started with something and an engine line up. They didn't just bin the whole platform and all the engines did they?

And are the engines in this completely bespoke to the Giula? Or have they been COMPLETELY designed solely for the purpose of this car?

[Ares]

E65Ross said:

Ruskins said:

E65Ross said:

So the new 5 series is just adapted from the old one is it? Errrr....

Well they started with something and an engine line up. They didn't just bin the whole platform and all the engines did they?

And are the engines in this completely bespoke to the Giula? Or have they been COMPLETELY designed solely for the purpose of this car?

The ones so far, I believe, have been designed especially for the Giulia....unless you count the QF's engine as being a Ferrari California with 2 cylinders cut off as not bespoke?

[Ali_T]

Ares said:

And AWD for LHD only has been the case with most manufacturers for years. Only in the last 2-3yrs have BMW/Merc really started bringing mainstream AWD versions.

Especially galling when it's British built Jaguar that were doing it!

[Ruskins]

Ares said:

E65Ross said:

Ruskins said:

E65Ross said:

So the new 5 series is just adapted from the old one is it? Errrr....

Well they started with something and an engine line up. They didn't just bin the whole platform and all the engines did they?

And are the engines in this completely bespoke to the Giula? Or have they been COMPLETELY designed solely for the purpose of this car?

The ones so far, I believe, have been designed especially for the Giulia....unless you count the QF's engine as being a Ferrari California with 2 cylinders cut off as not bespoke?

Yes the engines in the Giulia are all completely new. They will go into other models but they were designed to go in the Giulia first.

[Hackney]

I was having a bit of a poke around the Veloce today, very nice looking car inside and out.
I've arranged a test drive for next Wednesday.
I went outside to look at the QV and the salesman very kindly went to get the key for me to look inside, even let me start it up.
Wow!

Very intrigued by this though, no mention of it from the dealer.

Ali_T said:

There is a 350bhp engine coming to compete with the 340i but it's a 2 litre with electric turbo and 48V electrics. Same route as Audi are taking.

[Ali_T]

Hackney said:

Very intrigued by this though, no mention of it from the dealer.

They may not know about it yet. It's been in development for over a year now but no news from insiders as to a launch date. Rumour is it'll also be the engine for a new Giulietta Quadrifoglio to compete with the A45, RS3 etc.

[E65Ross]

Ares said:

E65Ross said:

Ruskins said:

E65Ross said:

So the new 5 series is just adapted from the old one is it? Errrr....

Well they started with something and an engine line up. They didn't just bin the whole platform and all the engines did they?

And are the engines in this completely bespoke to the Giula? Or have they been COMPLETELY designed solely for the purpose of this car?

The ones so far, I believe, have been designed especially for the Giulia....unless you count the QF's engine as being a Ferrari California with 2 cylinders cut off as not bespoke?

But the fact they're going into other models kind of negates the point about the BMWs (or other marques, of course) just churning out parts-bin specials.....the engine in the new 540i, for example, was first used in one of their cars at some point in time. It just so happens that they may release a new chassis/model/engine etc etc at different times.....Don't see the problem with that personally, and certainly that alone wouldn't be a reason for me not buying a car (or a specific reason for buying something else). If the package is good, then does it matter if it's used elsewhere?

[Ares]

E65Ross said:

Ares said:

E65Ross said:

Ruskins said:

E65Ross said:

So the new 5 series is just adapted from the old one is it? Errrr....

Well they started with something and an engine line up. They didn't just bin the whole platform and all the engines did they?

And are the engines in this completely bespoke to the Giula? Or have they been COMPLETELY designed solely for the purpose of this car?

The ones so far, I believe, have been designed especially for the Giulia....unless you count the QF's engine as being a Ferrari California with 2 cylinders cut off as not bespoke?

But the fact they're going into other models kind of negates the point about the BMWs (or other marques, of course) just churning out parts-bin specials.....the engine in the new 540i, for example, was first used in one of their cars at some point in time. It just so happens that they may release a new chassis/model/engine etc etc at different times.....Don't see the problem with that personally, and certainly that alone wouldn't be a reason for me not buying a car (or a specific reason for buying something else). If the package is good, then does it matter if it's used elsewhere?

Perhaps, but it doesn't detract from the fact that this car has all new engines, an all new chassis....all new everything.

I can't remember the last time any car in this segment was all new from the ground up. For Alfa to do this is great. To doing it in 2.5 yrs is incredible, especially to hit the market so close to the top.

It was your assertion that the new 5 wasn't just an adaptation. It isn't really, but it has a lot of shared kit.

[trashbat]

Ali_T said:

They may not know about it yet. It's been in development for over a year now but no news from insiders as to a launch date. Rumour is it'll also be the engine for a new Giulietta Quadrifoglio to compete with the A45, RS3 etc.

As far as the Giulia goes, and as far as current plans go anyway, the 350bhp engine will be US only, sold as the Giulia Veloce in MY2019. Their current base car is the 280bhp, sold as the Giulia and Giulia Ti.

Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 21st June 18:25

[Ray_Aber]

Ares said:

Ali_T said:

Ares said:

I agree with this. The issue with the PH Quadrifoglio was documented, explain and resolved. Alfa UK's screw up, but a shame that PH follows the rest of the UK media in doing whatever is necessary to be negative at any given opportunity for someone breaking the comparatively dull mould.


PS - glad you are enjoying trouble free motoring..AND liked the Dark Grey (Vesuvio)....my Quadrifoglio arrives, in that colour, in August!!

It could be the old Haymarket bias to anything German, especially VAG related. I'm very suspicious of any Autocar or PH review nowadays, sadly. Any pictures of Vesuvio? My QF arrives in the next few weeks but my stereotyped choice of Rosso Competizione and silver teledials isn't really breaking the mould!

Loads online. I almost went Rosso, but had the same thoughts. I've gone for Vesuvio to be a bit different (and less shouty to appease Mrs Ares) with Black 5-holes:

Sorry, but that's like watching a telly from the 1960s. A car that John Major would love. As corporate as a late timesheet.

(PS I think I'm getting the hang of PH. Keep comments light and without strident opinio...hold on...)

Edited by Ray_Aber on Wednesday 21st June 19:09

[Ray_Aber]

sidesauce said:

Ray_Aber said:

Look at BMW's 6 series coupé for a good example.

Somewhat biased but I'm inclined to agree... Deliberately chose Vermillion Red as the other options at the time were either too drab or would mark too easily!

Exactly! Lovely. That's one of the reasons why a 2nd hand 6 Gran Coupe is on my target list. I've never had a German car as they are mostly boring (especially in the colours available) but the 6 BMWs are attractive and can be had in technicolour.

[Ares]

Ray_Aber said:

Sorry, but that's like watching a telly from the 1960s. A car that John Major would love. As corporate as a late timesheet.

(PS I think I'm getting the hang of PH. Keep comments light and without strident opinio...hold on...)

Edited by Ray_Aber on Wednesday 21st June 19:09

Thankfully, opinions vary

Didn't like Red, current car is white. Black was too, black. two silvers were too corporate.

Saw Vesuvio in the flesh, loved it. Stealth like. Not too shouty. I value that.

[TheFinners]

I like it, but is that really a 5.5k redline on an Alfa with a petrol engine?

[Kolbenkopp]

TheFinners said:

I like it, but is that really a 5.5k redline on an Alfa with a petrol engine?

Yeah, unfortunately it is. Another point which makes the whole non-Q range difficult to judge fairly when coming from a PH perspective. They will have done their Benchmarking and market research and this is what they came up with. I think it is ace, most enjoyable car in class. As long as it is not compared to an M level BMW or a Subaru BRZ. But against a cooking spec Audi, BMW or Merc.

The greatness also comes with some quirkiness that might initially frustrate. Nicest flappy paddles in the business, but somewhat nasty shift knob. Best looking dash by a mile, but infotainment UI design is a bit primitive. Best chassis in class, great brakes, super steering (if a bit light) but restrictive ESP.

It's the goal of a good review to show things like this up. I really like Dan's style because he does that. What's difficult with the TG induced level of hyperbole that many reviews carry now -- is balancing the whole piece. I think that some expect more 'glow' in the praise, but where do you stop and how does one phrase this in a consistent manner?

Do we want to have this like e.g. in the wine or HiFi business, where some guys assign points on a more or less arbitrary scale? And people end up repeatedly buying stuff they don't really enjoy -- but hey, 97 points! IMO it is the reader's duty to make up his or her mind with the information given. And then if interested enough try for themselves.

Bit of a tangent here sorry.

Personally, I had a EU spec Veloce as rental for 8 days. Diesel and AWD unfortunately. But with each day of driving I liked it more. Dan's review is spot on IMO. The points he criticizes are valid. But for me they are far, far outweighed by the positives the car brings that are also described. If you are in the market for a compact exec, do drive one. Preferably for more that 30 minutes, and on some nice roads.

The biggest problem with it is really, for those suffering from mild perfectionism (like probably most on here), the "how good could it be" game. I'd like my 'Veloce' in RWD, with the LSD and a manual box, an ESP that can be loosend up a bit, a tad more steering feel and weight, a small number of nicer made details and ideally a revvier engine with two more cylinders. But the competition won't give you that either. Strongest contender is perhaps a manual 340i that has the engine and the shifter covered but is lacking in other areas. And is a good deal more expensive.

[Ares]

Kolbenkopp said:

I'd like my 'Veloce' in RWD, with the LSD and a manual box, an ESP that can be loosend up a bit, a tad more steering feel and weight, a small number of nicer made details and ideally a revvier engine with two more cylinders. But the competition won't give you that either. Strongest contender is perhaps a manual 340i that has the engine and the shifter covered but is lacking in other areas. And is a good deal more expensive.

You've just described the Quadrifoglio then

[s m]

Ares said:

Kolbenkopp said:

I'd like my 'Veloce' in RWD, with the LSD and a manual box, an ESP that can be loosend up a bit, a tad more steering feel and weight, a small number of nicer made details and ideally a revvier engine with two more cylinders. But the competition won't give you that either. Strongest contender is perhaps a manual 340i that has the engine and the shifter covered but is lacking in other areas. And is a good deal more expensive.

You've just described the Quadrifoglio then

As long as you like LHD

[Ares]

s m said:

Ares said:

Kolbenkopp said:

I'd like my 'Veloce' in RWD, with the LSD and a manual box, an ESP that can be loosend up a bit, a tad more steering feel and weight, a small number of nicer made details and ideally a revvier engine with two more cylinders. But the competition won't give you that either. Strongest contender is perhaps a manual 340i that has the engine and the shifter covered but is lacking in other areas. And is a good deal more expensive.

You've just described the Quadrifoglio then

As long as you like LHD

True.... Although by all reports, the manual is not the best option.

[Ray_Aber]

Kolbenkopp said:

Do we want to have this like e.g. in the wine or HiFi business, where some guys assign points on a more or less arbitrary scale? And people end up repeatedly buying stuff they don't really enjoy -- but hey, 97 points! IMO it is the reader's duty to make up his or her mind with the information given. And then if interested enough try for themselves.

Bit of a tangent here sorry.

Not at all; balanced comments. I'm so 98-99 points on that! (obscure wine reference there)

[DailyHack]

Whens the wagon coming out!? Only one I am interested in, if its anything like the "classic" 156 wagon...wow!