No-one makes a proper basic rough and ready 4x4

[300bhp/ton]

TooMany2cvs said:

Kierkegaard said:

I think Land Rover should bring back the Defender - or rather an all new model that looks like a defender but has up to date stuff but still basic. LR is too far into pushing upmarket it's missing an easy market it used to sell well in IMO.

Profit is generally regarded as a useful knock-on from sales volume, so I think they're fairly happy with the decision to put the Def out of its misery.

All the emissions and airbag excuses were simply excuses. The Defender just wasn't profitable, so it got taken on a one-way trip to the vet.

I think it was profitable. Just labour intensive. So maybe not as profitable as something like the Discovery Sport. And it didn't fit in with the companies up market image and wasn't type approved for the USA.

[TooMany2cvs]

300bhp/ton said:

Just got back from touring Wales for a few days. And it's staggering how many working Land Rovers there are there still. Mostly pickups with Ifor Williams tops but a few hard tops too. And all 90's pretty much, not 110's (people don't want a big long vehicle for this sort of use).

Sure there are plenty of Jap pickups too these days. But observationally there were far more Land Rovers in service than all of the Jap pickups combined.

It beggars belief that

a) Land Rover seem to have no interest in this market
b) no other major makers seem to have noticed it either

<nods>
Here in the Welsh borders, there's a heck of a lot of older 90s and utterly shagged Fourtraks, and a reasonable chunk of near-new. The near-new is a 50/50 mix of utility-spec Rangers/Mitsus/Navaras or 90s.

[DonkeyApple]

300bhp/ton said:

+1

Just got back from touring Wales for a few days. And it's staggering how many working Land Rovers there are there still. Mostly pickups with Ifor Williams tops but a few hard tops too. And all 90's pretty much, not 110's (people don't want a big long vehicle for this sort of use).

Sure there are plenty of Jap pickups too these days. But observationally there were far more Land Rovers in service than all of the Jap pickups combined.

It beggars belief that

a) Land Rover seem to have no interest in this market
b) no other major makers seem to have noticed it either

Or, it just might, possibly be that they, JLR and all other major makers have worked out that this amazing market and massive demand doesn't remotely exist on any kind of commercial basis?

There is a vehicle for every conceivable gap in the global market that is even remotely commercially viable are you honestly saying that every single global manufacturer that exists and all the VC money on the planet to fund niche filling enterprises have missed this lucrative opportunity?

Statistically speaking, the odds aren't in favour of this commercial belief of yours.

[Bluetoo]

do Iveco still do the Land Rover 90/110 copy? I regularly see one local to me , the Massiff or something like that but just looks like bog standard SWB Defender with a facelift

[boobles]

Both my 2001 Grand Vitara & Jeep Patriot are very capable vehicles indeed.

[TooMany2cvs]

Bluetoo said:

do Iveco still do the Land Rover 90/110 copy? I regularly see one local to me , the Massiff or something like that but just looks like bog standard SWB Defender with a facelift

No, Santana went titsup in 2011.

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

Or, it just might, possibly be that they, JLR and all other major makers have worked out that this amazing market and massive demand doesn't remotely exist on any kind of commercial basis?

There is a vehicle for every conceivable gap in the global market that is even remotely commercially viable are you honestly saying that every single global manufacturer that exists and all the VC money on the planet to fund niche filling enterprises have missed this lucrative opportunity?

Statistically speaking, the odds aren't in favour of this commercial belief of yours.

I don't know about a 'world' market, as I'm not family with all other markets. But it is evident in the UK that there is such a market and as no vehicles fit the brief, it is most certainly a gap.

Go to the Lakes, the Peaks or the North York Moors and it's all the same situation as it is in Wales. Something 90 sized, able to tow, rugged with good off road ability.

I believe Conwy Land Rover was the 2nd highest dealership for Defender sales.... across the UK. Almost all of them sold as working vehicles.

[Pesty]

Import one of these from the us.



There is a farmer roaming around here with a Dodge Ram

[DonkeyApple]

300bhp/ton said:

DonkeyApple said:

Or, it just might, possibly be that they, JLR and all other major makers have worked out that this amazing market and massive demand doesn't remotely exist on any kind of commercial basis?

There is a vehicle for every conceivable gap in the global market that is even remotely commercially viable are you honestly saying that every single global manufacturer that exists and all the VC money on the planet to fund niche filling enterprises have missed this lucrative opportunity?

Statistically speaking, the odds aren't in favour of this commercial belief of yours.

I don't know about a 'world' market, as I'm not family with all other markets. But it is evident in the UK that there is such a market and as no vehicles fit the brief, it is most certainly a gap.

Go to the Lakes, the Peaks or the North York Moors and it's all the same situation as it is in Wales. Something 90 sized, able to tow, rugged with good off road ability.

I believe Conwy Land Rover was the 2nd highest dealership for Defender sales.... across the UK. Almost all of them sold as working vehicles.

These are the figures for annual sales for the whole of Europe including the UK:


Land Rover

Defender

2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850

Go to the Lakes, the Peaks or the North York Moors and it's all the same situation as it is in Wales. Something 90 sized, able to tow, rugged with good off road ability.

No one is denying that there are a few people who specifically need something like a 90 but the reality is that there are not enough of them for anyone to entertain the idea of servicing this low number, low value niche. Especially when the very small number of people who need a 90 already have one and could go and buy a fully refurbed, as new one tomorrow. And if they don't want an as new one then there are always over 1,000 used ones up fo sale in the UK at any given moment.

[TooMany2cvs]

DonkeyApple said:

These are the figures for annual sales for the whole of Europe including the UK:

Land Rover
Defender

2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850

Where are those figures from?

[300bhp/ton]

Pesty said:

Import one of these from the us.



There is a farmer roaming around here with a Dodge Ram

I don't object to thinking outside the box, but this isn't really answering the ops question, it's an answer to entirely different question.

Essentially a vehicle like that is still too big. And a Jimny, as awesome as it is, is too small.

What is missing in the market is a SWB utility 4x4. Or failing that, a compact 5 door utility 4x4.

e.g.

Make/Model	Length	Width
Ford Ranger	211"	72.8"
Defender 90	152.9"	70.5"

The thing to note is, width wise, the Defender is only this wide at the wheel arches, the body, i.e. front and rear, sides where the doors are and the front bumper are actually a lot narrower. And mirrors fold flat against the sides and hardly protrude any further than the wheel arches. The body is actually only 66" wide....

All modern Jap style pickup trucks have big bulbous bodies and are full width for their entire length. And then have huge mirrors on them too, that stick out really far and don't fold flat to the body. Combine this with the extreme length and only long wheel base offerings and you end up with vehicles that are cumbersome and overly large.


If you are dealing with narrow gates, lanes and roads. Then bigger wider vehicles are less practical and less suited to the conditions. And in some cases physically too wide to get to some places.








Not too mentioned that these long pick up trucks all have the turning circle of the QE2. Which if you are shunting trailers about in tight small yards, is yet another thing they are too big for.

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

These are the figures for annual sales for the whole of Europe including the UK:


Land Rover

Defender

2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850

I think your figures are wrong, the number of new UK registrations shows in the region of 5000-6000 units each year from 2001 to 2013 and then an increase in the last 2 years production.

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/land_rover_de...

Not a massive market, but I'd have thought still potentially significant.

Or put it this way, Ford seem to have significantly less new registrations of Rangers.

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/ford_ranger#!...


The VW Amarok is also much lower than the Defender in new registrations.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/volkswagen_am...

Even the Toyota Hilux only seems to match the Defender, but with more fluctuations.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/toyota_hilux#...

[donkmeister]

Everyone I know in construction/civil engineering has to roll their own nowadays by taking one of the pickups mentioned earlier and adding a Truckman Top sort of affair on the back.
I've only seen two Amaroks so far, no mud or battle scars on either. The puny engine for this class of truck presumably makes it horrible/useless for towing a heavy load.
I seem to be spotting a lot of Ford Rangers now, more than Nissan and Mitsubishi trucks.

[Dabooka]

Well all I know is, after reading this thread I'm once again getting that urge to spaff some money on a scabby 90 / 110.

I'm going to have to do this one day!

[Mammasaid]

e.g.

Make/Model	Length	Width
Ford Ranger	211"	72.8"
Defender 90	152.9"	70.5"
Mitsubishi L200	208"	71.4"

Min. turning circle m (ft) 11.8 (38.7)

Can't say I've ever noticed how difficult it is manoeuvring round a sheep farm in rural Cumbria...

[300bhp/ton]

Mammasaid said:

e.g.

Make/Model	Length	Width
Ford Ranger	211"	72.8"
Defender 90	152.9"	70.5"
Mitsubishi L200	208"	71.4"

Min. turning circle m (ft) 11.8 (38.7)

Can't say I've ever noticed how difficult it is manoeuvring round a sheep farm in rural Cumbria...

Then bully for you

I'm not saying it can't be done, or that people don't. But it's simple physics, that bigger things need bigger spaces.

In my uncles yard, to pull some of the trailers out and not hit anything you need a swb vehicle. Due to the amount of turning room once you go past the gates and the narrow walls each side of the trailers. With a 90 it's easy, loads of room. With a Range Rover/Discovery you need people to watch the walls, trailers, bodywork and will likely take a few attempts, reversing them back in is even harder.

A pickup truck that is potentially another 2 1/2 - 3 feet+ longer again would be a real PITA. If not impossible.

[EUbrainwashing]

The OP says no pick-ups but a double cab with a proper load-area hard top is almost not a pick-up any more. I fancy that is the sort of choice where the OP's market has gone (especially with pick-up 'potential' for more favourable tax allowances with commercial users).

I understand the conundrum and have always found even non 4x4 general estate cars too 'plush' when I want a utility thing I can get a bit muddy and chuck gear into the load area, and dogs, without ruining the darn tool. It is strange where there is so much duplication between manufacturers and their model ranges that some smart producer has not seen this as a niche in the market.

[loskie]

I think IBEX are still on the go.
the local Mole Man uses one.
http://ibexvehicles.blogspot.co.uk/

Edited by loskie on Wednesday 28th June 16:55

[RizzoTheRat]

TooMany2cvs said:

Bluetoo said:

do Iveco still do the Land Rover 90/110 copy? I regularly see one local to me , the Massiff or something like that but just looks like bog standard SWB Defender with a facelift

No, Santana went titsup in 2011.

I think the Morottab Pazhan is still being made but importing one from Iran might be a bit of a problem

[Accelebrate]

All the land owning/working sorts around here seem to have moved onto Mitsubishi. Either Shoguns or L200s with steel wheels and Brian James style galvanised bed covers.