E46 M3 CSL and others falling in price....
Discussion
blade7 said:
I reckon £3k is plenty for all of them. I don't know why people want a mk 2 Golf GTi either, one of them was enough to know the mk 1 was a nicer car.
I dont really get paying like 5 grand for a MK2 Golf though, 5k gets you something a lot better and faster, a Z4 3.0 for example, TT MK1, you have to be really keen on ancient Golfs to pay 5 grand, they were good, for their time but I really couldn't be arsed with any of them now, quite happy to leave them to the "enthusiasts", I am done chasing rust and 30 year old car agro.
Thing have got out of hand with certain older cars, anyone would think they are the bloody second coming, especially if it is a version that had a few kilos removed, and MK2 Escorts, 30 grand for RS2000's, an Escort with a 110 bhp Pinto in, and every video I ever see of an Escort it is spinning round in a circles like a fly thats had a good old lungful of Fly Spray.
Driven a few Icons, V12 E Type, couldnt see what the fuss was about, ditto Integrale and Sierra Cosworth, i think with a lot of this stuff its emperors new clothes and a desire to be different, I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse, old cars, you can keep them, give me a Golf R instead.
J4CKO said:
Really, I had two MK1 GTIs and 4 MK2's GTI's, MK1 was nicer looking but the MK2 did everything else better.
I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse,
Yes really, I had many mk 1 GTi's and just one mk 2. The brakes were better on the mk 2, that was about it. As for your 944, you know you bought the wrong model don't you ?I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse,
blade7 said:
J4CKO said:
Really, I had two MK1 GTIs and 4 MK2's GTI's, MK1 was nicer looking but the MK2 did everything else better.
I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse,
Yes really, I had many mk 1 GTi's and just one mk 2. The brakes were better on the mk 2, that was about it. As for your 944, you know you bought the wrong model don't you ?I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse,
Brakes were better in that it had some, I found the later Digifant MK2's the best, they seemed to retain the power they left the factory with, dont get me wrong, I loved the MK1's but found MK2s easier to live with, if I had to choose now, it would be a MK1 I think but one with proper brakes and maybe an ABF and someone else to do all the rust, an interior retrim and the whole thing built from scratch almost.
J4CKO said:
Did they make a 26 year old Porsche that wasnt a pain in the arse ? are you going to say turbo ? couldnt afford one anyway, certainly cant now and to be honest, wouldnt want one, plenty of stuff that hasnt been trotted up beyond what its actually worth
Brakes were better in that it had some, I found the later Digifant MK2's the best, they seemed to retain the power they left the factory with, dont get me wrong, I loved the MK1's but found MK2s easier to live with, if I had to choose now, it would be a MK1 I think but one with proper brakes and maybe an ABF and someone else to do all the rust, an interior retrim and the whole thing built from scratch almost.
With the age of the cars now I don't think its about daily driving, I really enjoy driving mine, its not particularly fast nor does it have amazing brakes, the handling is good in an analogue way but add this all together its a great event driving the car with all its faults and the analogue feeling it givesBrakes were better in that it had some, I found the later Digifant MK2's the best, they seemed to retain the power they left the factory with, dont get me wrong, I loved the MK1's but found MK2s easier to live with, if I had to choose now, it would be a MK1 I think but one with proper brakes and maybe an ABF and someone else to do all the rust, an interior retrim and the whole thing built from scratch almost.
I guess this is why most classic cars get their value, nostalgia
I think it's true that there are a fair volume of cars within the bubble which will cool off and actually might be seen on the road once again.
Proper stuff, which is incredibly rare for good reason, will always be valuable, but I agree that there are certainly some cars which need to come down - if only for some of us to enjoy driving them.
The VW Golf does seem to live in some kind of unusual environment though - some particular cars go for exorbitant amounts just for being unusual (rather than being a better car).
I hope things like Skylines, Supras and other popular 'affordable performance' cars calm down too.
Proper stuff, which is incredibly rare for good reason, will always be valuable, but I agree that there are certainly some cars which need to come down - if only for some of us to enjoy driving them.
The VW Golf does seem to live in some kind of unusual environment though - some particular cars go for exorbitant amounts just for being unusual (rather than being a better car).
I hope things like Skylines, Supras and other popular 'affordable performance' cars calm down too.
I am no financial expert, but a market crash is predicated almost monthly and yet prices still climb or at least maintain their current levels. I haven’t noticed a decrease in prices, perhaps a softening of certain cars, although I don’t keep an eye on all markets so may have missed something.
I do keep a watch on the CSL market though, as I would love to own one, but unfortunately they’re currently out of reach. The market hasn’t shifted recently that I have noticed, most cars still seem to be around £40-60K depending on mileage and specification. If there was a market crash though, it would benefit me as I might be able to get into a CSL.
With that in mind, would a market crash really affect true enthusiasts? The prices might fall in the short term but will eventually stabilize and start to increase again. Most enthusiasts buy these cars to keep for a time, so a short term decrease shouldn’t affect them. It would be the investors who would take a bath. In fact, it could benefit some enthusiasts who can’t currently afford the inflated prices.
I do think that prices are largely academic for enthusiasts who already own these cars though. For example, my Supra has increased a small amount since purchase, but so have other similar cars I might be interested in, so were I to sell, I wouldn’t be any better off because of the increase. I guess the problem comes when you haven’t bought in and the prices have increased to a level where you can no longer buy in.
I do keep a watch on the CSL market though, as I would love to own one, but unfortunately they’re currently out of reach. The market hasn’t shifted recently that I have noticed, most cars still seem to be around £40-60K depending on mileage and specification. If there was a market crash though, it would benefit me as I might be able to get into a CSL.
With that in mind, would a market crash really affect true enthusiasts? The prices might fall in the short term but will eventually stabilize and start to increase again. Most enthusiasts buy these cars to keep for a time, so a short term decrease shouldn’t affect them. It would be the investors who would take a bath. In fact, it could benefit some enthusiasts who can’t currently afford the inflated prices.
I do think that prices are largely academic for enthusiasts who already own these cars though. For example, my Supra has increased a small amount since purchase, but so have other similar cars I might be interested in, so were I to sell, I wouldn’t be any better off because of the increase. I guess the problem comes when you haven’t bought in and the prices have increased to a level where you can no longer buy in.
J4CKO said:
Driven a few Icons, V12 E Type, couldnt see what the fuss was about, ditto Integrale and Sierra Cosworth, i think with a lot of this stuff its emperors new clothes and a desire to be different, I had a 944 S2, it was ok, but generally a pain in the arse, old cars, you can keep them, give me a Golf R instead.
It sounds as if you don’t understand the appeal of classic cars. Their successors may be superior in a technical sense, but they don’t have the same appeal as their elder relatives. I mean, with the exception of the 944, I would rather have any of the cars you’ve mentioned over a Golf R.Edited by Bradley1500 on Monday 26th June 15:03
aaron_2000 said:
Seems like the 2000 Turbo's have gone up this year. Used to see dogs for under 1k and good examples around 3k. These days a dog is about 2k and a good one goes for around 7-8k. Hope they don't go to stupid money.
At the risk of a silly question, what's a "2000 Turbo"? I presume it's linked to your usernameMy first thought was Lancia Dedra, but not sure even in this market one of those is worth £8k
EDIT: Ah ignore me, we're talking Scoobies, aren't we?!
Edited by Leins on Monday 26th June 15:10
Leins said:
aaron_2000 said:
Seems like the 2000 Turbo's have gone up this year. Used to see dogs for under 1k and good examples around 3k. These days a dog is about 2k and a good one goes for around 7-8k. Hope they don't go to stupid money.
At the risk of a silly question, what's a "2000 Turbo"? I presume it's linked to your usernameMy first thought was Lancia Dedra, but not sure even in this market one of those is worth £8k
Leins said:
aaron_2000 said:
Seems like the 2000 Turbo's have gone up this year. Used to see dogs for under 1k and good examples around 3k. These days a dog is about 2k and a good one goes for around 7-8k. Hope they don't go to stupid money.
At the risk of a silly question, what's a "2000 Turbo"? I presume it's linked to your usernameMy first thought was Lancia Dedra, but not sure even in this market one of those is worth £8k
EDIT: Ah ignore me, we're talking Scoobies, aren't we?!
Edited by Leins on Monday 26th June 15:10
VonSenger said:
I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who works in the finance/banking space and understands investment products etc much more than i do.
He explained it very simply. No money in savings due to interest rates being low. So people have used cars as investments.
Pretty obvious really but the real surprise for me was the description of how it will unwind and how quickly it will affect the market.
As interest rates begin to rise, which is highly likely next year given the 3 to 5 vote at the BoE, people slowly start to get out at the top. This will see a slow in sales and an abundance of stock.
Great news i say. This wave of silly priced cars has really alienated real car fans.
It's also a pretty good way to move large sums of money between countries without the tax man getting much of a sniff.He explained it very simply. No money in savings due to interest rates being low. So people have used cars as investments.
Pretty obvious really but the real surprise for me was the description of how it will unwind and how quickly it will affect the market.
As interest rates begin to rise, which is highly likely next year given the 3 to 5 vote at the BoE, people slowly start to get out at the top. This will see a slow in sales and an abundance of stock.
Great news i say. This wave of silly priced cars has really alienated real car fans.
s m said:
On the subject of Dedras there is an Integrale one up for under 3k at the moment Leins
Yep, and it's over here in Ireland if it's the one I'm thinking of. Been for sale on and off for a whileThere's also a 155 Q4 for sale here, which is another on the "bargain Integrale" list
SDB660 said:
This?
I suspect not, but that is quite nice all the sameEdited by Leins on Monday 26th June 15:27
J4CKO said:
Did they make a 26 year old Porsche that wasnt a pain in the arse ? are you going to say turbo ? couldnt afford one anyway, certainly cant now and to be honest, wouldnt want one, plenty of stuff that hasnt been trotted up beyond what its actually worth
I am going to say turbo, because it's the only one I'd want. Do you know of any 26 year old high performance, well engineered car that isn't a PITA to maintain ? I'm not selling or buying one, so today I don't really care what they're worth, but they used to be a performance bargain, that's the reason I bought one 8 years ago and kept it. If there's something else German that goes, handles, looks better, costs the same and can be insured on a classic policy I'd consider changing to it.LP670 said:
A market crash cant come soon enough as far as im concerned, mainly because im sick of hearing people talking about cars as an investment rather than the enjoyment they give.
Same here. I don't want to get too political but it feels wrong to buy cars and housing as investment. If you can do it though, fair do's.Anyway, keeping my fingers crossed that everything Porsche comes down from their current astronomical prices and M5's continue their downward trend!
Everyone on this thread seems to be missing how international the classic/collectors market has become in the last 5-7 years.
Admittedly, other than a bit of inspection/consultancy work for old clients I've not been regularly involved in buying and selling for the last two years, but if I look back at twenty five car sales that I dealt with 2014-2015 only four stayed in the UK. The destinations were as diverse as a Miura to Malaysia, 911RS to Lebanon, 365 Speedster to India...
Look back to the 1980s crash and you only really had the UK, Japan and USA as key markets, and to a much lesser extent mainland Europe.
It is a far more complex market these days, and the localised RHD price hikes in the U.K. is perhaps more like a particular model year of Chevy being highly valued in the USA, but just another old American car in the rest of the world.
Admittedly, other than a bit of inspection/consultancy work for old clients I've not been regularly involved in buying and selling for the last two years, but if I look back at twenty five car sales that I dealt with 2014-2015 only four stayed in the UK. The destinations were as diverse as a Miura to Malaysia, 911RS to Lebanon, 365 Speedster to India...
Look back to the 1980s crash and you only really had the UK, Japan and USA as key markets, and to a much lesser extent mainland Europe.
It is a far more complex market these days, and the localised RHD price hikes in the U.K. is perhaps more like a particular model year of Chevy being highly valued in the USA, but just another old American car in the rest of the world.
Leins said:
s m said:
On the subject of Dedras there is an Integrale one up for under 3k at the moment Leins
Yep, and it's over here in Ireland if it's the one I'm thinking of. Been for sale on and off for a whileThere's also a 155 Q4 for sale here, which is another on the "bargain Integrale" list
SDB660 said:
This?
I suspect not, but that is quite nice all the sameEdited by Leins on Monday 26th June 15:27
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C875190
Agree on the Lancer Turbo as well
I think texaxile has one or two
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