RE: Citroen need help making a C3 WRC
Discussion
Create honest, analoque driving experience at a good value.
Get the basics right:
- low weight
- communicative steering
- suppritive seats
- strong brakes
- willing engine
- manual with short gearing
- most adjustable handling in class
- no dead gas pedal while left foot braking
- no electronic interventions if not desired
Keep cost down:
- white only
- non painted door handles etc
- small light wheels (15")
- no infotainment and stuff as standard
- manual AC
Options:
- limited slip diff
- öhlins
- lightened fly wheel
- steel brake lines
- hard engine mounts
... and of course go faster stripes
Get the basics right:
- low weight
- communicative steering
- suppritive seats
- strong brakes
- willing engine
- manual with short gearing
- most adjustable handling in class
- no dead gas pedal while left foot braking
- no electronic interventions if not desired
Keep cost down:
- white only
- non painted door handles etc
- small light wheels (15")
- no infotainment and stuff as standard
- manual AC
Options:
- limited slip diff
- öhlins
- lightened fly wheel
- steel brake lines
- hard engine mounts
... and of course go faster stripes
jayemdoubleu said:
Funnily enough, my suggestion was exactly what I'm looking for. Perhaps I'm in the minority.
You are.Only a very small percentage of users would want a semi stripped out car.
An even smaller percentage would want that car to be a FWD/4WD French Hatchback.
There simply isn't the market for such a vehicle.
RacerMike said:
Why would it necessarily need stuff they've already used on other cars? Haldex or GKN Twinster rear diffs exist. Only issues with that are they'd need a new rear subframe and potentially body in white changes to accommodate the pro-shaft. Ultimately depends how bespoke the thing is though. If it was made off line and limited to a thousand or so cars (and 35-40k), it'd potentially be possible.
Very simply to reduce cost, testing, supplier qualification and make it a lot more likely to appear. Changes to major structural Components generally imply crash testing and the like... Cherry picking the parts bin is a lot easier/cheaper. Then add shiny stuff on the outside.S.
I would go:
C3
The 210bhp THP engine, possibly the 270bhp version from the RCZ R or 308 GTI.
4wd if feasible - if not, LSD from the two cars mentioned above.
Standard ride height from the C3 with stiffer anti roll bars and bracing to reduce body roll.
OZ rally style wheels 16", chunky tires.
Arch extensions in the style of the DS3 Performance (not carbon) would keep cost down and allow for wider wheels.
Buckets from the 208 GTI or DS3 Performance.
Fruity exhaust like the one from the Mini Cooper S, map in pops in bangs for the rallying vibe.
Some simple emblems and graphics in the style of the 106 Rallye.
Priced at 20k or below I could see that selling fairly well, would be ideal for the roads we are used to in the UK that are riddled with potholes and broken surfaces.
C3
The 210bhp THP engine, possibly the 270bhp version from the RCZ R or 308 GTI.
4wd if feasible - if not, LSD from the two cars mentioned above.
Standard ride height from the C3 with stiffer anti roll bars and bracing to reduce body roll.
OZ rally style wheels 16", chunky tires.
Arch extensions in the style of the DS3 Performance (not carbon) would keep cost down and allow for wider wheels.
Buckets from the 208 GTI or DS3 Performance.
Fruity exhaust like the one from the Mini Cooper S, map in pops in bangs for the rallying vibe.
Some simple emblems and graphics in the style of the 106 Rallye.
Priced at 20k or below I could see that selling fairly well, would be ideal for the roads we are used to in the UK that are riddled with potholes and broken surfaces.
Richard Aucock said:
Those are MAGIC archive pix – thanks for sharing!
heh, thanks. i probably could have found even better photos of a couple of them if i spent a bit more time.i do like the promo image used for the 'drapeau' edition that i posted before... even a basic sticker-special car was made to seem a bit more interesting. companies used to have such good images for advertising sport-inspired variants of cars- below is another i like
but nowadays theyre so dull.... the advert images for sporty cars are either on a racetrack like nurburgring (but on a straight, not looking 'busy'), or completely static. even citroen are guilty of this when they try to show a 'sporty' car- case in point:
-circa 1000kg weight
-Red/white/blue colour options
-4wd
-1.6 turbo at around 250ish horsepower (308gti unit?)
-White only wheels
-Smaller rally design alloys
-Raised a little bit
-Boxy arches
-Sporty seats and alcatara interior
-Novelty red switches and toggles for various functions
-Rorty exhaust!
-Red/white/blue colour options
-4wd
-1.6 turbo at around 250ish horsepower (308gti unit?)
-White only wheels
-Smaller rally design alloys
-Raised a little bit
-Boxy arches
-Sporty seats and alcatara interior
-Novelty red switches and toggles for various functions
-Rorty exhaust!
Edited by Murphy16 on Friday 7th July 12:03
Some worth additions IMO.
Limited edition of say 500 units
130PS engine
Limited slip differential
Low ratio gears, Like the old VTR Saxo
Alcantara/flocked dash
Some aftermarket wheel company collaboration ie. speedline, compomotive, O.Z,
Standard trim is white paint with white wheels
Delete options ie. radio, Aircon, parcel shelf, Spare wheel replaced with cannister?
"Citroen sport brake pads" - uprated brake pads
High temperature brake fluid
High performance summer tyre option
Spring/damper/ARB stiffness increase
Front strut brace?
Supportive seats
Aluminium pedal covers and a aluminium gearknob
Probably got a bit carried away...
I think it's all the intricate details biased towards performance that make cars with this goal interesting.
Limited edition of say 500 units
130PS engine
Limited slip differential
Low ratio gears, Like the old VTR Saxo
Alcantara/flocked dash
Some aftermarket wheel company collaboration ie. speedline, compomotive, O.Z,
Standard trim is white paint with white wheels
Delete options ie. radio, Aircon, parcel shelf, Spare wheel replaced with cannister?
"Citroen sport brake pads" - uprated brake pads
High temperature brake fluid
High performance summer tyre option
Spring/damper/ARB stiffness increase
Front strut brace?
Supportive seats
Aluminium pedal covers and a aluminium gearknob
Probably got a bit carried away...
I think it's all the intricate details biased towards performance that make cars with this goal interesting.
The problem is an insoluble clash of marketing. Make it too vague and you have a modern "C4 By Loeb" debacle. Make it too potent and you tread on the toes of the performance 208 and DS3 models.
The logical answer is either to make an absolute monster- but the market is awash with 300bhp hatches to be frank- or to do something on a niche which isn't saturated. The C3 is too conventional for the latter.
Therefore, the solution doesn't involve the C3.
So my suggestion would be to launch a C1 (already covered above), or to launch a performance Cactus Rallye.
Stripes, painted steel 15 inch wheels, suffer springs but don't lower the suspension. Give it a Baja/Dakar vibe. An aggressive lip spoiler and tailgate spoiler should help a lot to make it look less cutesy.
Keep a lid on engine power to avoid high insurance premiums.
Seek to young uns and capitalise on the SUV craze. Seek in countries with our roads where a raised ride height will help.
The logical answer is either to make an absolute monster- but the market is awash with 300bhp hatches to be frank- or to do something on a niche which isn't saturated. The C3 is too conventional for the latter.
Therefore, the solution doesn't involve the C3.
So my suggestion would be to launch a C1 (already covered above), or to launch a performance Cactus Rallye.
Stripes, painted steel 15 inch wheels, suffer springs but don't lower the suspension. Give it a Baja/Dakar vibe. An aggressive lip spoiler and tailgate spoiler should help a lot to make it look less cutesy.
Keep a lid on engine power to avoid high insurance premiums.
Seek to young uns and capitalise on the SUV craze. Seek in countries with our roads where a raised ride height will help.
Dovile said:
i do like the promo image used for the 'drapeau' edition that i posted before... even a basic sticker-special car was made to seem a bit more interesting. companies used to have such good images for advertising sport-inspired variants of cars- below is another i like
but nowadays theyre so dull.... the advert images for sporty cars are either on a racetrack like nurburgring (but on a straight, not looking 'busy'), or completely static. even citroen are guilty of this when they try to show a 'sporty' car- case in point:
Not really the manufacturers' fault, though.but nowadays theyre so dull.... the advert images for sporty cars are either on a racetrack like nurburgring (but on a straight, not looking 'busy'), or completely static. even citroen are guilty of this when they try to show a 'sporty' car- case in point:
https://www.asa.org.uk/advice-online/motoring.html
ASA said:
The Code contains specific rules on marketing communications for motoring. For example marketing communications for motor vehicles, fuel or accessories should avoid portraying or referring to practices that encourage or condone anti-social behaviour or unsafe or irresponsible driving (Rule 19.1 and 19.2); ( Jaguar Land Rover Ltd, 16 July 2014).
...
Marketing communications should not encourage motorists to drive irresponsibly or break the law (Rule 19.3); ( Jaguar Land Rover Ltd, 25 June 2014) or depict vehicles in dangerous or unwise situations in a way that might encourage irresponsible driving (Rule 19.2).
Marketers whose cars have a racing heritage should be particularly careful not to compare driving on race tracks to driving on roads as this might encourage some drivers to drive irresponsibly (Vauxhall Motors, Jan 1999 and Nissan Motors (GB) Ltd, Sept 1997).
...
Marketing communications should not encourage motorists to drive irresponsibly or break the law (Rule 19.3); ( Jaguar Land Rover Ltd, 25 June 2014) or depict vehicles in dangerous or unwise situations in a way that might encourage irresponsible driving (Rule 19.2).
Marketers whose cars have a racing heritage should be particularly careful not to compare driving on race tracks to driving on roads as this might encourage some drivers to drive irresponsibly (Vauxhall Motors, Jan 1999 and Nissan Motors (GB) Ltd, Sept 1997).
blearyeyedboy said:
The problem is an insoluble clash of marketing. Make it too vague and you have a modern "C4 By Loeb" debacle. Make it too potent and you tread on the toes of the performance 208 and DS3 models.
The logical answer is either to make an absolute monster- but the market is awash with 300bhp hatches to be frank- or to do something on a niche which isn't saturated. The C3 is too conventional for the latter.
Therefore, the solution doesn't involve the C3.
So my suggestion would be to launch a C1 (already covered above), or to launch a performance Cactus Rallye.
Stripes, painted steel 15 inch wheels, suffer springs but don't lower the suspension. Give it a Baja/Dakar vibe. An aggressive lip spoiler and tailgate spoiler should help a lot to make it look less cutesy.
Keep a lid on engine power to avoid high insurance premiums.
Seek to young uns and capitalise on the SUV craze. Seek in countries with our roads where a raised ride height will help.
Pretty much what I'd thought of. "Cactus Dakar" were two words that basically meshed when I considered any Citroen other than the C3. Make a Mad Max / Judge Dredd spec Cactus and give us a worthy 106 Rallye successor based around the C1... aiming not for outright power but a good power/weight ratio and good balance & handling.The logical answer is either to make an absolute monster- but the market is awash with 300bhp hatches to be frank- or to do something on a niche which isn't saturated. The C3 is too conventional for the latter.
Therefore, the solution doesn't involve the C3.
So my suggestion would be to launch a C1 (already covered above), or to launch a performance Cactus Rallye.
Stripes, painted steel 15 inch wheels, suffer springs but don't lower the suspension. Give it a Baja/Dakar vibe. An aggressive lip spoiler and tailgate spoiler should help a lot to make it look less cutesy.
Keep a lid on engine power to avoid high insurance premiums.
Seek to young uns and capitalise on the SUV craze. Seek in countries with our roads where a raised ride height will help.
The difficulty nowadays is that hot hatches have more power than the actual cars on-stage. It's not the 90's any more, where to be stupidly quick you needed 250hp. You can't do "rally car heritage" by boosting to 300hp and making lightweight door cards (and maybe vaguely better suspension), because there's a Focus RS out with no rally pedigree and 345 horsepower being shoved out of all 4 wheels.
Horsepower is an easy way to sell people a fast car, selling superior suspension and handling only makes fast drivers quicker. And frankly there's only so much of that possible before you start running into "faster than sight" driving issues...
Horsepower is an easy way to sell people a fast car, selling superior suspension and handling only makes fast drivers quicker. And frankly there's only so much of that possible before you start running into "faster than sight" driving issues...
The Citroen C3R
Rear bench delete option - adds a half cage or something
Plexi rear windows
15 or 16" version of the WRC wheels something like a 195/55/15 profile (i am not smart enough to work this out on a 16
)
130 BHP engine from the PSA family
Bucket style seats trimmed with Alcantara and some cool logo - If taking the rear bench delete adds 4 or 6 point harness
LSD
Manual or Dual Clutch (short shift on the manual)
Fly off handbrake mode
TCS, ABS off mode (Track mode?)
Decent brakes
Lose 90% of the sound deadening
Keep the weight down, 1000kg should be the target
Keep the ride height as is but upgrade the dampers and springs and stiffen up the chassis with some braces and a decent ARB package
Mud flaps
Fruity exhaust with a "rally" map to give pops and bangs on overrun with an option to run in a normal mode so you dont look like a tool in town
Launch mode/control (yes i know its pointless in general but one of the appeals of rally is when they sit on the start line fizzing and banging getting ready to go)
Do some lightening on the interior, door handles in webbing ala the porche stuff
Aircon as an option
Manual windows, no electric option
That'll do me
Rear bench delete option - adds a half cage or something
Plexi rear windows
15 or 16" version of the WRC wheels something like a 195/55/15 profile (i am not smart enough to work this out on a 16
)130 BHP engine from the PSA family
Bucket style seats trimmed with Alcantara and some cool logo - If taking the rear bench delete adds 4 or 6 point harness
LSD
Manual or Dual Clutch (short shift on the manual)
Fly off handbrake mode
TCS, ABS off mode (Track mode?)
Decent brakes
Lose 90% of the sound deadening
Keep the weight down, 1000kg should be the target
Keep the ride height as is but upgrade the dampers and springs and stiffen up the chassis with some braces and a decent ARB package
Mud flaps
Fruity exhaust with a "rally" map to give pops and bangs on overrun with an option to run in a normal mode so you dont look like a tool in town
Launch mode/control (yes i know its pointless in general but one of the appeals of rally is when they sit on the start line fizzing and banging getting ready to go)
Do some lightening on the interior, door handles in webbing ala the porche stuff
Aircon as an option
Manual windows, no electric option
That'll do me
A WRC version should have big power (or lightweight which won't happen), lairy looks, and drive like its on fire. 1.6 Turbo engine, 4WD is probably not an option, but a decent diff should be. Anything less than that and it will be a joke to use the letters WRC on it.
Having said that, Citroen paid tribute to the most dominant (lets not forget all in Citroens) and quiet possibly the greatest rally driver of all with a sad sad tribute C4.
Expect disappointment not a Focus RS, Mini JCW rival.
Having said that, Citroen paid tribute to the most dominant (lets not forget all in Citroens) and quiet possibly the greatest rally driver of all with a sad sad tribute C4.
Expect disappointment not a Focus RS, Mini JCW rival.
wst said:
The difficulty nowadays is that hot hatches have more power than the actual cars on-stage. It's not the 90's any more, where to be stupidly quick you needed 250hp. You can't do "rally car heritage" by boosting to 300hp and making lightweight door cards (and maybe vaguely better suspension), because there's a Focus RS out with no rally pedigree and 345 horsepower being shoved out of all 4 wheels.
Horsepower is an easy way to sell people a fast car, selling superior suspension and handling only makes fast drivers quicker. And frankly there's only so much of that possible before you start running into "faster than sight" driving issues...
This ^ Hence my previous tongue in cheek (ish) suggestion. Personally I wouldn't want a Focus RS (sorry, I don't do Fords) but a properly suspensded DS3 WRC lookalike with 350hp for Focus RS money ? I'd definitely sign on the dotted line.Horsepower is an easy way to sell people a fast car, selling superior suspension and handling only makes fast drivers quicker. And frankly there's only so much of that possible before you start running into "faster than sight" driving issues...
VW had all the ingredients to build an awesome roadgoing WRC rep, but missed the boat and then dieselgate put paid to any chances of a properly hot Polo WRC rep. But then I tend to think Ford missed a trick with the latest Focus RS as its 5 door format looks more chavved up family load lugger than a special stage refugee.
Onehp said:
Seriously, there is little point trying to compete with hot hatches, already so much offerings. Unless you can do the full blown WRC experience but that would cost way too much.
What I seriously miss in the market are small cars with SERIOUS suspension (well all cars except perhaps a Ford Raptor). One of the things I enjoy most on WRC is how those low looking cars can take HUGE bumps completely unfussed. Citroen was once famous for their compliant suspension together with good handling, I remember loaning a friends mums Xsara 1.4 and really flying over speed humps and flying through bumpy corners, great fun! (stay safe please kids, don't try this at home!).
So something light and affordable as suggested before, minimal equipement, but some serious roadholding and WRC inspired suspension with lots of (negative) travel, hydraulic bump stops and dual spring rates that makes all other warm and hot hatch suspension look like antiquated unusable live axle blade spring suspension... and some big mudflaps so you don't mind taking it down some less clean roads...
^^^ This x1000.What I seriously miss in the market are small cars with SERIOUS suspension (well all cars except perhaps a Ford Raptor). One of the things I enjoy most on WRC is how those low looking cars can take HUGE bumps completely unfussed. Citroen was once famous for their compliant suspension together with good handling, I remember loaning a friends mums Xsara 1.4 and really flying over speed humps and flying through bumpy corners, great fun! (stay safe please kids, don't try this at home!).
So something light and affordable as suggested before, minimal equipement, but some serious roadholding and WRC inspired suspension with lots of (negative) travel, hydraulic bump stops and dual spring rates that makes all other warm and hot hatch suspension look like antiquated unusable live axle blade spring suspension... and some big mudflaps so you don't mind taking it down some less clean roads...
Marketing boards seem to have it in their heads that tarting up a hatchback = Make it look like a budget touring car that caught a serious case of blandness. Every. Damn. Time. Do Citroen really see space in this market?
My solution:
Mate the C3 with a dune buggy.
Wide arches - think Dakar NOT Silverstone.
Maximum travel / minimum body roll suspension.
Add funky stereo.
Add bucket seats.
????
Profit.
Sell it with images of some sprog Loebing it across a field to a festival or ragging it around a beach.
What's the competition for a car like this, essentially a warm hatch with offroad pretensions and extreme sports / mountain bike type styling? Fiat panda 4x4? Subaru justy (lol)? BMW X1?
Easy...
1.6 THP engine in 175/200bhp form
20mm lower and slightly stiffer
Bigger brakes
Bigger wheels
Slightly better seats
That's it, that's all they need to do. Gearbox isn't relevant because it doesn't actually matter to anyone outside of the internet.
Hot hatches used to stick to that basic format, bigger engine, bigger brakes and bigger wheels, some better trim and not a lot else other than maybe a unique colour.
PSA have everything they need at their disposal from other models, it's a simple task of raiding the parts bin, they even have a 270bhp engine for a full on nutter version.
1.6 THP engine in 175/200bhp form
20mm lower and slightly stiffer
Bigger brakes
Bigger wheels
Slightly better seats
That's it, that's all they need to do. Gearbox isn't relevant because it doesn't actually matter to anyone outside of the internet.
Hot hatches used to stick to that basic format, bigger engine, bigger brakes and bigger wheels, some better trim and not a lot else other than maybe a unique colour.
PSA have everything they need at their disposal from other models, it's a simple task of raiding the parts bin, they even have a 270bhp engine for a full on nutter version.
forgot to add to my original list that it should include -
- OK/SOS board
- warning triangle
- lifetime breakdown & recovery cover
- complimentary jackets & hats, so you can keep warm while waiting for recovery
- one month of it being leased out to another driver giving you "time to rest and refocus"
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