RE: Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video
Discussion
woody166 said:
Really? You flipped a car on the basis of that. You need to take a deep breath and educate yourself in the the science of car mechanics.....assuming you are not just talking nonsense
As I say, the Committed Alfisti is a strange breed who sees shadows around every corner ! I assume your "talking nonsense" reference is some kind of insinuation that I'm making this up ?For the avoidance of doubt I'm not. I had multiple instances of the car going into limp mode. It had two software recall updates (the first took three days and ran to 40 pages) and yet it continued to fail. The beginning of the end was the car going into limp mode at 130mph on the German Autobahn culminating in it spending another three days at a main dealer in Zurich.
Like I say I'm very sad I got one of the lemons, I think there are a few out there and not just mine and the PH car. I'm talking to ARUK about the situation and I'm not going to go into detail here about that but for the avoidance of doubt I'm not a habitual Alfa basher so you can get back in your box on that front
woody166 said:
It had two software recall updates (the first took three days and ran to 40 pages)
40 pages ? What are you even talking about ? Are you trying to say your car car was hooked up for 3 days while 40 pages worth of script was uploaded ?
There were 40 pages worth of individual updates applied. It's part of service recall number 6116/7/8 which spans a range of Giulia Quad chassis numbers.40 pages ? What are you even talking about ? Are you trying to say your car car was hooked up for 3 days while 40 pages worth of script was uploaded ?
It took three days to apply all the required software patches and these covered all of the individual control units for engine, braking, steering, gearbox, HVAC, infotainment etc.
I'm not sure why you are feeling the need to be quite so confrontational.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 9th July 22:26
RSK21 said:
There were 40 pages worth of individual updates applied. It's part of service recall number 6116/7/8 which spans a range of Giulia Quad chassis numbers.
It took three days to apply all the required software patches and these covered all of the individual control units for engine, braking, steering, gearbox, HVAC, infotainment etc.
I'm not sure why you are feeling the need to be quite so confrontational.
Hey RSK, I saw your post over on AO when you first had the issues abroad. I thought the Swiss dealer managed to resolve, but sorry to hear they didn't. Can understand your concerns/feelings of disillusion with your particular QV It took three days to apply all the required software patches and these covered all of the individual control units for engine, braking, steering, gearbox, HVAC, infotainment etc.
I'm not sure why you are feeling the need to be quite so confrontational.
Edited by RSK21 on Sunday 9th July 22:26
woody166 said:
It had two software recall updates (the first took three days and ran to 40 pages)
40 pages ? What are you even talking about ? Are you trying to say your car car was hooked up for 3 days while 40 pages worth of script was uploaded ?
I assume the idea that cars run a lot of software, and much of it can take many hours to download into the car is news to you then?40 pages ? What are you even talking about ? Are you trying to say your car car was hooked up for 3 days while 40 pages worth of script was uploaded ?
RSK21 said:
Havoc856-S said:
Which looks like a 3/4 series M Sport with a bonnet bulge.
You'd need to be partially sighted to not tell the difference between an M3 and an M Sport saloon.It's closer on the 4 but definitely not an issue on the side arched M3
[quote=SidewaysSi]When was the written review? Seems weeks, if not months ago...
I remember talking to one of the PH guys at the Santa-Pod Sunday service about it, so the test must of been April/May time..
Not the best review I have seen, surely a rematch is in order to give the Alfa a chance without the engine light on!!
G
I remember talking to one of the PH guys at the Santa-Pod Sunday service about it, so the test must of been April/May time..
Not the best review I have seen, surely a rematch is in order to give the Alfa a chance without the engine light on!!
G
DeltaEvo2 said:
WOW! It looks like Pistonheads is being sponsored by the German automotive manufacturing industry. What a lame review. Every journalist on the planet reviewed the Giulia QV and found it to beat both German cars on almost everything and you have a software glitch and carry on reviewing and posting the video propaganda? It looks like a revenge video. Where is the drag race? 0-60 times? Stopping times? Looks, aerodynamics? You drove behind the two rivals for the entire video. It's not a proper review sorry. A real review would have said: "The Alfa had a computer issue once sorted (it needed the Alfa ECU updated) it was the fastest around the track, 0-60 etc.etc..."
Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Hi all,Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
Slippydiff said:
Julian Thompson said:
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.
With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!
The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
Harris liked it, so not all journos slated it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqGX7Y0GZXEWith the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.
I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!
The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
A quick trawl on here will find numerous comments about the 996 GT2 being a "Widowmaker". I've owned two of them and used the first one as daily for 18k miles..... I drove it in all weathers including sub zero temps, all without incident. I got (and still get) bored/pissed off with "armchair experts" trotting out the same old drivel about them being dangerous, a handful to drive etc.
And as for someone bleating about the Alfa being wrongly slated after it'd broke down ......
Yes, I get you enter into Italian car ownership with your eyes wide open to their foibles (well those who crave style over substance seem to ...) but I do wonder at what point does hopeless reliability and crap after service cease to appear some sort of character best viewed through rose tinted spectacles ???? I wouldn't expect any modern daily driver to leave me stranded anywhere, let alone at a race circuit. If it did let me down, it would be consigned to the classifieds or its supplying dealer tout suite.Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 8th July 22:05
I've also had that car suddenly step out turning right in a roundabout going after Audi S3, we had a bit of a play, I and S3 dude, and I was at 3000rpm when I gave it a little bit more gas, 3200 is where I have max torque, so Turbo lost the rear even though stability control was on.
These cars are good, but they are not lambs.
I would imagine GT2 is even less a lamb, being rwd. Also 996 GT2 always needed a really good chassis setup to be good rides.
Good reply Matt, I'm sure everyone would appreciate seeing the vid redone with the Alfa in full working order.
I've heard quite a few Alfa owners say on here that the car was unreliable until the most recent software updates.
It's disappointing and smacks of a car that hasn't been subjected to much real world testing and just rushed to market, but the same can equally be said of the most recent Focus RS - it got raved about, but didn't deliver consistently and had numerous issues so I'm like one of the earlier posters and wasn't prepared to be a beta tester on that, sold up after just 6 months.
I think the problem with the latest C63 and F8x M3/4 models are summed up quite nicely by previous posts too.
The latest M3/4 cars are very clinical and the ride very good, but for me the M cars would be much more rewarding on a track than as a daily. I tried testing one twice, and it just didn't set my world on fire despite the numbers on paper suggesting it should; unless you're really winding them up all the time they can feel a bit joyless despite what the actual pace is outside, which is sad because they're very good cars. Sport exhaust as standard would probably fix a lot of that!
The C63's are tremendously fun cars for everyday usage and have a lot of theatre, plus huge torque for overtaking but I agree that the latest C63 saloon is a bit of a mess at the rear - how did they get the coupe so right and the saloon so wrong!
I've heard quite a few Alfa owners say on here that the car was unreliable until the most recent software updates.
It's disappointing and smacks of a car that hasn't been subjected to much real world testing and just rushed to market, but the same can equally be said of the most recent Focus RS - it got raved about, but didn't deliver consistently and had numerous issues so I'm like one of the earlier posters and wasn't prepared to be a beta tester on that, sold up after just 6 months.
I think the problem with the latest C63 and F8x M3/4 models are summed up quite nicely by previous posts too.
The latest M3/4 cars are very clinical and the ride very good, but for me the M cars would be much more rewarding on a track than as a daily. I tried testing one twice, and it just didn't set my world on fire despite the numbers on paper suggesting it should; unless you're really winding them up all the time they can feel a bit joyless despite what the actual pace is outside, which is sad because they're very good cars. Sport exhaust as standard would probably fix a lot of that!
The C63's are tremendously fun cars for everyday usage and have a lot of theatre, plus huge torque for overtaking but I agree that the latest C63 saloon is a bit of a mess at the rear - how did they get the coupe so right and the saloon so wrong!
"I don't know about 996 GT2, but when I once turned off stability control on my 997 Turbo (albeit a bit tuned) and just gave it a bit of gas from red light turning right, I was lucky I did not kiss a tram with the rear of my car, it had a very snap oversteer"
That's not what is commonly referred to as "snap oversteer". What you're referring to is overwhelming the tyres with load - and it's not really an enormous surprise to hear that your @ 600hp Porsche fired itself sideways when unleashed into a steering angle sufficient to make a right angle turn!
What they mean by "snap oversteer" is a condition where the car loses rear traction in a turn in a sudden and unpredictable way.
It might be prudent to mention that "snap oversteer" can almost always be traced back to sub optimal weight management on the part of the driver - a sweeping or tightening bend with a poorly judged drivetrain disconnecting gear change right in the middle of it or failing to take account of the impact of crests and ridges in terms of the way the tyres are pressed into the road and the resultant change in available grip as those dynamics play out are two absolutely classic examples.
Through history there have been a few cars with a reputation for unruly behaviour like the beautiful 300SL gullwing coupe with its swing axle, and of course some of the original 911's but most of these dynamics faux pas were committed a long time ago and I believe that incorrectly understood journalistic comment has a lot to answer for when we are talking about modern motor cars.
My favourite is probably "handling balance" - we see a video of Chris Harris sliding gracefully around a 90mph sweeper as he pronounces that the car has "great balance" - and then ten minutes later on the five mile standard test drive loop at the BMW showroom the lucky punter is slicing left and right through traffic lights and round roundabouts proclaiming that he can "really feel that great balance" - to sage nods from sales guy braced next to him.
That's not what is commonly referred to as "snap oversteer". What you're referring to is overwhelming the tyres with load - and it's not really an enormous surprise to hear that your @ 600hp Porsche fired itself sideways when unleashed into a steering angle sufficient to make a right angle turn!
What they mean by "snap oversteer" is a condition where the car loses rear traction in a turn in a sudden and unpredictable way.
It might be prudent to mention that "snap oversteer" can almost always be traced back to sub optimal weight management on the part of the driver - a sweeping or tightening bend with a poorly judged drivetrain disconnecting gear change right in the middle of it or failing to take account of the impact of crests and ridges in terms of the way the tyres are pressed into the road and the resultant change in available grip as those dynamics play out are two absolutely classic examples.
Through history there have been a few cars with a reputation for unruly behaviour like the beautiful 300SL gullwing coupe with its swing axle, and of course some of the original 911's but most of these dynamics faux pas were committed a long time ago and I believe that incorrectly understood journalistic comment has a lot to answer for when we are talking about modern motor cars.
My favourite is probably "handling balance" - we see a video of Chris Harris sliding gracefully around a 90mph sweeper as he pronounces that the car has "great balance" - and then ten minutes later on the five mile standard test drive loop at the BMW showroom the lucky punter is slicing left and right through traffic lights and round roundabouts proclaiming that he can "really feel that great balance" - to sage nods from sales guy braced next to him.
Really hope the test gets re-done, and done properly, not just three guys hooning cars round a circuits promoting their own steeds.
We'll never know the extent of advertiser/brand influence (happens with all media), but there was plenty of piss-take about Dan/Alfa.
Alfa UK need a smack for not supplying the car with the software update, there's the biggest issue!!
FWIW, I've just been through exactly the same test, but with a Ghibli S thrown in for good measure - all had for a full weekend, on consecutive weekends.
The M3 is fantastic. Solid, maybe too solid, and a real brute racer that urges you to have a go. Anything under 7/10th and it feels disappointing. Only at 8/10ths and above does it come to life, then it goes like a supercar - quick, yes, but the grip, traction and overall pace it has it brilliant. But the moments you can take it to 8/10ths on public roads are few and far between, and even then, you are verging on 'nutter' approach.
The C63s really surprised me. A very taut, direct drive. Amazing engine, great turn in and altogether a better place to be whether cruising, A/B road blasting or giving it full means across open country lanes. Very confidence inspiring, easy to drive and very charismatic.
The Alfa is just alive. Interior looks great, but is behind the BMW & Germans in quality, but the second you set off, it is in a different world. The steering, the chassis, the feedback....the whole dynamic set up is alive. It drives like a Ferrari (whether you deem that a good thing, or a bad). The brakes are good, not great, and modulating them takes getting used to.
I was lucky enough to grab an hour in the Alfa on the weekend I had the C63. I was becoming torn between the C63 and the Alfa (I'd discounted the M3, despite being very loyal to BMW for 18yrs/6 cars), then after just 5 mins in the Alfa having had 48hrs in the C63, it was night and day, the drive in the Alfa was just too good. Even trudging through 30 limit town-centre roads was fun, taking it out on the open roads just doubled my heartbeat, and grin.
It's the Alfa I've ordered, but the choice is down to personal preference. The others are still fantastic cars, and you'd not be short changed by them. For me, the Alfa just 'got me' - like a shot of adrenalin as soon as you first turn that wheel.
Back to the video - please do us a proper test, throw the RS5 in there too, make it mostly road based. People do not buy these cars with a race track in mind.
PS - Interested to see where the M3 came from, a well known journo I know, who has access to an M4 CP, was given an M3 CP for a test by BMW UK. He said it felt like it had an extra 30/40bhp compared to the M4 he usually drives. Maybe the M3 a different engine map??.....or maybe BMW did a 'TVR' and turned the wick up on the Press car?? Who knows.
We'll never know the extent of advertiser/brand influence (happens with all media), but there was plenty of piss-take about Dan/Alfa.
Alfa UK need a smack for not supplying the car with the software update, there's the biggest issue!!
FWIW, I've just been through exactly the same test, but with a Ghibli S thrown in for good measure - all had for a full weekend, on consecutive weekends.
The M3 is fantastic. Solid, maybe too solid, and a real brute racer that urges you to have a go. Anything under 7/10th and it feels disappointing. Only at 8/10ths and above does it come to life, then it goes like a supercar - quick, yes, but the grip, traction and overall pace it has it brilliant. But the moments you can take it to 8/10ths on public roads are few and far between, and even then, you are verging on 'nutter' approach.
The C63s really surprised me. A very taut, direct drive. Amazing engine, great turn in and altogether a better place to be whether cruising, A/B road blasting or giving it full means across open country lanes. Very confidence inspiring, easy to drive and very charismatic.
The Alfa is just alive. Interior looks great, but is behind the BMW & Germans in quality, but the second you set off, it is in a different world. The steering, the chassis, the feedback....the whole dynamic set up is alive. It drives like a Ferrari (whether you deem that a good thing, or a bad). The brakes are good, not great, and modulating them takes getting used to.
I was lucky enough to grab an hour in the Alfa on the weekend I had the C63. I was becoming torn between the C63 and the Alfa (I'd discounted the M3, despite being very loyal to BMW for 18yrs/6 cars), then after just 5 mins in the Alfa having had 48hrs in the C63, it was night and day, the drive in the Alfa was just too good. Even trudging through 30 limit town-centre roads was fun, taking it out on the open roads just doubled my heartbeat, and grin.
It's the Alfa I've ordered, but the choice is down to personal preference. The others are still fantastic cars, and you'd not be short changed by them. For me, the Alfa just 'got me' - like a shot of adrenalin as soon as you first turn that wheel.
Back to the video - please do us a proper test, throw the RS5 in there too, make it mostly road based. People do not buy these cars with a race track in mind.
PS - Interested to see where the M3 came from, a well known journo I know, who has access to an M4 CP, was given an M3 CP for a test by BMW UK. He said it felt like it had an extra 30/40bhp compared to the M4 he usually drives. Maybe the M3 a different engine map??.....or maybe BMW did a 'TVR' and turned the wick up on the Press car?? Who knows.
Edited by Ares on Monday 10th July 16:52
Matt Bird said:
DeltaEvo2 said:
WOW! It looks like Pistonheads is being sponsored by the German automotive manufacturing industry. What a lame review. Every journalist on the planet reviewed the Giulia QV and found it to beat both German cars on almost everything and you have a software glitch and carry on reviewing and posting the video propaganda? It looks like a revenge video. Where is the drag race? 0-60 times? Stopping times? Looks, aerodynamics? You drove behind the two rivals for the entire video. It's not a proper review sorry. A real review would have said: "The Alfa had a computer issue once sorted (it needed the Alfa ECU updated) it was the fastest around the track, 0-60 etc.etc..."
Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Hi all,Also, and I might be wrong, wasn't that a pre-production car? The car gives you a warning light almost from the start of the test and you keep trashing it?Why? Were you hoping that the car would come to a standstill during the recording? It sounds to me as if someone can't stand the fact that both German cars have been superseded by a better one. It the meantime I have unsubscribed from your youtube channel...poor "journalism".
Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Monday 10th July 13:01
Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Monday 10th July 13:02
Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Monday 10th July 17:44
Ares said:
Really hope the test gets re-done, and done properly, not just three guys hooning cars round a circuits promoting their own steeds.
We'll never know the extent of advertiser/brand influence (happens with all media), but there was plenty of piss-take about Dan/Alfa.
Alfa UK need a smack for not supplying the car with the software update, there's the biggest issue!!
FWIW, I've just been through exactly the same test, but with a Ghibli S thrown in for good measure - all had for a full weekend, on consecutive weekends.
The M3 is fantastic. Solid, maybe too solid, and a real brute racer that urges you to have a go. Anything under 7/10th and it feels disappointing. Only at 8/10ths and above does it come to life, then it goes like a supercar - quick, yes, but the grip, traction and overall pace it has it brilliant. But the moments you can take it to 8/10ths on public roads are few and far between, and even then, you are verging on 'nutter' approach.
The C63s really surprised me. A very taut, direct drive. Amazing engine, great turn in and altogether a better place to be whether cruising, A/B road blasting or giving it full means across open country lanes. Very confidence inspiring, easy to drive and very charismatic.
The Alfa is just alive. Interior looks great, but is behind the BMW & Germans in quality, but the second you set off, it is in a different work. The steering, the chassis, the feedback....the whole dynamic set up is alive. It drives like a Ferrari (whether you deem that a good thing, or a bad). The brakes are good, not great, and modulating them takes getting used to. I was lucky enough to grab an hour in the Alfa on the weekend I had the C63.
I was becoming torn between the C63 and the Alfa (I'd discounted the M3, despite being very loyal to BMW for 18yrs/6 cars), then after just 5 mins in the Alfa, it was night and day, the drive in the Alfa was just too good. Even trudging through 30 limit town-centre roads was fun, taking it out on the open roads just doubled my heartbeat, and grin.
It's the Alfa I've ordered, but the choice is down to personal preference. The others are still fantastic cars, and you'd not be short changed by them. For me, the Alfa just 'got me' - like a shot of adrenalin as soon as you first turn that wheel.
Back to the video - please do us a proper test, throw the RS5 in there too, make it mostly road based. People do not buy these cars with a race track in mind.
PS - Interested to see where the M3 came from, a well known journo I know, who has access to an M4 CP, was given an M3 CP for a test by BMW UK. He said it felt like it had an extra 30/40bhp compared to the M4 he usually drives. Maybe the M3 a different engine map??.....or maybe BMW did a 'TVR' and turned the wick up on the Press car?? Who knows.
Completely agree with your comments on the M car and public roads; it's a shame as it's so capable but like you say how many owners would take theirs to the track. Sounds like an Alfa experience is in order in the next few years We'll never know the extent of advertiser/brand influence (happens with all media), but there was plenty of piss-take about Dan/Alfa.
Alfa UK need a smack for not supplying the car with the software update, there's the biggest issue!!
FWIW, I've just been through exactly the same test, but with a Ghibli S thrown in for good measure - all had for a full weekend, on consecutive weekends.
The M3 is fantastic. Solid, maybe too solid, and a real brute racer that urges you to have a go. Anything under 7/10th and it feels disappointing. Only at 8/10ths and above does it come to life, then it goes like a supercar - quick, yes, but the grip, traction and overall pace it has it brilliant. But the moments you can take it to 8/10ths on public roads are few and far between, and even then, you are verging on 'nutter' approach.
The C63s really surprised me. A very taut, direct drive. Amazing engine, great turn in and altogether a better place to be whether cruising, A/B road blasting or giving it full means across open country lanes. Very confidence inspiring, easy to drive and very charismatic.
The Alfa is just alive. Interior looks great, but is behind the BMW & Germans in quality, but the second you set off, it is in a different work. The steering, the chassis, the feedback....the whole dynamic set up is alive. It drives like a Ferrari (whether you deem that a good thing, or a bad). The brakes are good, not great, and modulating them takes getting used to. I was lucky enough to grab an hour in the Alfa on the weekend I had the C63.
I was becoming torn between the C63 and the Alfa (I'd discounted the M3, despite being very loyal to BMW for 18yrs/6 cars), then after just 5 mins in the Alfa, it was night and day, the drive in the Alfa was just too good. Even trudging through 30 limit town-centre roads was fun, taking it out on the open roads just doubled my heartbeat, and grin.
It's the Alfa I've ordered, but the choice is down to personal preference. The others are still fantastic cars, and you'd not be short changed by them. For me, the Alfa just 'got me' - like a shot of adrenalin as soon as you first turn that wheel.
Back to the video - please do us a proper test, throw the RS5 in there too, make it mostly road based. People do not buy these cars with a race track in mind.
PS - Interested to see where the M3 came from, a well known journo I know, who has access to an M4 CP, was given an M3 CP for a test by BMW UK. He said it felt like it had an extra 30/40bhp compared to the M4 he usually drives. Maybe the M3 a different engine map??.....or maybe BMW did a 'TVR' and turned the wick up on the Press car?? Who knows.
.Let us know how yours goes
I have driven all the cars tested (well I've driven a few different M4s, not M3s). All press cars, all driven just as enthusiastically as each other.
Hands down, the Alfa is by far the best, it drives like an M3 of old, looks better (and sounds as good as) the C63. It's only downside really is the interior isn't of the same quality as the others and the menu navigation stuff isn't as quick (pretty minor really).
However, of the two Giulia QFs, the first went into the same limp mode as in the video (may have even been the same car to be honest). Alfa took the car away and sent a replacement..... and the exact same thing happened to that one.
It's such a shame as it drove so well, sounded great and was probably best in class (for me).
I'm not a serial Alfa hater and know sometimes one just doesn't leave the factory quite right, but it seems that number is much higher with the QF than it's competitors, which coincidentally, never had a problem. In fact I've driven most mass produced cars from the last 6 years and occasionally we do get a dud. But we've never had a dud, be sent a replacement, only for that one to go wrong too (until the QF). By anyone (and we drive pretty much everything).
Sad really as I really wanted it to do well, in fact all of PH wants it to succeed. It may yet though, I suspect it's a problem with a certain part that won't be a difficult fix..... and it's a very big leap for Alfa from so long in the wilderness so teething problems are expected I suppose.
I know someone will chime in with "my QF has done 50,000 miles and not had a problem", which is great and I appreciate that there are reliable ones out there. I'm just passing on my experiences.
Hands down, the Alfa is by far the best, it drives like an M3 of old, looks better (and sounds as good as) the C63. It's only downside really is the interior isn't of the same quality as the others and the menu navigation stuff isn't as quick (pretty minor really).
However, of the two Giulia QFs, the first went into the same limp mode as in the video (may have even been the same car to be honest). Alfa took the car away and sent a replacement..... and the exact same thing happened to that one.
It's such a shame as it drove so well, sounded great and was probably best in class (for me).
I'm not a serial Alfa hater and know sometimes one just doesn't leave the factory quite right, but it seems that number is much higher with the QF than it's competitors, which coincidentally, never had a problem. In fact I've driven most mass produced cars from the last 6 years and occasionally we do get a dud. But we've never had a dud, be sent a replacement, only for that one to go wrong too (until the QF). By anyone (and we drive pretty much everything).
Sad really as I really wanted it to do well, in fact all of PH wants it to succeed. It may yet though, I suspect it's a problem with a certain part that won't be a difficult fix..... and it's a very big leap for Alfa from so long in the wilderness so teething problems are expected I suppose.
I know someone will chime in with "my QF has done 50,000 miles and not had a problem", which is great and I appreciate that there are reliable ones out there. I'm just passing on my experiences.
I think i tend to agree with the Alfa fans that the video definitely seemed biased regardless of Matts post. I dont know that it was intentional or pushed by ze germans but really I think from Haymarket/PH's side the smart move would have been to leave it out of the review.
I appreciate that they probably set the test up with the intent of benchmarking the alfa against its rivals so felt it had to be done but it was a bad move.
As to the car going in to limp mode and a number of other early alfa owners cars going into limp mode. Alfa have it seems got a few software glitches in the car that are only now being discovered by the cars being used in anger. The press cars will all have had very hard lives from the start and unfortunately that will definitely show any gremlins.
From the sound of it Alfa have figured out most of the major gremlins that keep putting the car in limp mode and are applying patches to fix them free of charge.
The only other problem seems to be the dealer network backed by Alfa. Sadly this was something that was predictable and something I wrote to the head of FIta/Alfa group about in Italy. His response was they had started a programme of improvement for their delaer network already and that was prior to launch of the car.
It seems either they didnt or as usual its not being done right.
I appreciate that they probably set the test up with the intent of benchmarking the alfa against its rivals so felt it had to be done but it was a bad move.
As to the car going in to limp mode and a number of other early alfa owners cars going into limp mode. Alfa have it seems got a few software glitches in the car that are only now being discovered by the cars being used in anger. The press cars will all have had very hard lives from the start and unfortunately that will definitely show any gremlins.
From the sound of it Alfa have figured out most of the major gremlins that keep putting the car in limp mode and are applying patches to fix them free of charge.
The only other problem seems to be the dealer network backed by Alfa. Sadly this was something that was predictable and something I wrote to the head of FIta/Alfa group about in Italy. His response was they had started a programme of improvement for their delaer network already and that was prior to launch of the car.
It seems either they didnt or as usual its not being done right.
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