RE: Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video
Discussion
Matt Bird said:
Hi all,
Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
Thank you for continuing to put out content, for free. Tough crowd on here!Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
Having owned a TVR I would be nervous buying the Alfa because they seem to be in a similar mould to the TVR(will let you down/lack reliability), but there is something special about an Alfa that the Germans can't compete with, so I think it could be worth the risk.
My money would be on the M3 although I much prefer the engine in the C63 but I don't like it's looks very much, all three cars are guaranteed to put a smile on your face for sure though.
My money would be on the M3 although I much prefer the engine in the C63 but I don't like it's looks very much, all three cars are guaranteed to put a smile on your face for sure though.
mwstewart said:
Matt Bird said:
Hi all,
Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
Thank you for continuing to put out content, for free. Tough crowd on here!Just to add a bit more detail to this video, as there seems to be a few wild conspiracy theories being thrown around!
- The Giulia was a production car, and given to us with 5,000 miles on it. I believe it was the car used on Top Gear. The test was conducted on May 3rd so that's the car and when it happened.
- The car had thrown up the 'check engine' light a couple of times already on the road but often it would disappear again. When the car was working people absolutely loved it and I can not make that point strongly enough: the original PH review praised the Quadrifoglio highly, as have subsequent stories on the regular models. We like the car very much and want to see it do well; of course we all have cars we like but the suggestion of overt bias towards the Geman cars is quite upsetting.
- Obviously we would have preferred not to drive the Giulia with the warning light on but it was 3pm by the time this video was shot, having been trying to fix the car all day. The Alfa technician with the car had to go to Chester because his diagnostics tool broke (!) and so we were massively time restricted. We tried to film the car while it was running properly and then it malfunctioned again. We thought that some video of the car would be better than none at all but perhaps in hindsight it wasn't. Would you have wanted to see M3 v. C63 with the Alfa in the pit? That would also explain why we didn't swap cars - there simply wasn't the time!
- Most importantly, we are trying to get this test reorganised. We know the Alfa is very good and we want to give it a fair chance to prove itself. For the reasons listed above it wasn't possible this time but we're confident it can happen again. Certainly however the above video is not some propaganda vid for the Germans - they are good cars that were working on the day, the Alfa is a good car that wasn't. I envisage a far closer comparison - and a better video - when we get them together again.
I hope that clears things up a little. If you have any more questions about the test then drop me an email on matthew.bird@haymarket.com. I'm very keen that what actually happened is known before any alternative facts gain traction!
Cheers!
Matt
simo1863 said:
I have driven all the cars tested (well I've driven a few different M4s, not M3s). All press cars, all driven just as enthusiastically as each other.
Hands down, the Alfa is by far the best, it drives like an M3 of old, looks better (and sounds as good as) the C63. It's only downside really is the interior isn't of the same quality as the others and the menu navigation stuff isn't as quick (pretty minor really).
However, of the two Giulia QFs, the first went into the same limp mode as in the video (may have even been the same car to be honest). Alfa took the car away and sent a replacement..... and the exact same thing happened to that one.
It's such a shame as it drove so well, sounded great and was probably best in class (for me).
I'm not a serial Alfa hater and know sometimes one just doesn't leave the factory quite right, but it seems that number is much higher with the QF than it's competitors, which coincidentally, never had a problem. In fact I've driven most mass produced cars from the last 6 years and occasionally we do get a dud. But we've never had a dud, be sent a replacement, only for that one to go wrong too (until the QF). By anyone (and we drive pretty much everything).
Sad really as I really wanted it to do well, in fact all of PH wants it to succeed. It may yet though, I suspect it's a problem with a certain part that won't be a difficult fix..... and it's a very big leap for Alfa from so long in the wilderness so teething problems are expected I suppose.
I know someone will chime in with "my QF has done 50,000 miles and not had a problem", which is great and I appreciate that there are reliable ones out there. I'm just passing on my experiences.
This has been a well documented issue though, fixed before the 17-plate deliveries, that required a software update. Stupid of Alfa UK to not do the update on this car, but hardly a major reliability note.Hands down, the Alfa is by far the best, it drives like an M3 of old, looks better (and sounds as good as) the C63. It's only downside really is the interior isn't of the same quality as the others and the menu navigation stuff isn't as quick (pretty minor really).
However, of the two Giulia QFs, the first went into the same limp mode as in the video (may have even been the same car to be honest). Alfa took the car away and sent a replacement..... and the exact same thing happened to that one.
It's such a shame as it drove so well, sounded great and was probably best in class (for me).
I'm not a serial Alfa hater and know sometimes one just doesn't leave the factory quite right, but it seems that number is much higher with the QF than it's competitors, which coincidentally, never had a problem. In fact I've driven most mass produced cars from the last 6 years and occasionally we do get a dud. But we've never had a dud, be sent a replacement, only for that one to go wrong too (until the QF). By anyone (and we drive pretty much everything).
Sad really as I really wanted it to do well, in fact all of PH wants it to succeed. It may yet though, I suspect it's a problem with a certain part that won't be a difficult fix..... and it's a very big leap for Alfa from so long in the wilderness so teething problems are expected I suppose.
I know someone will chime in with "my QF has done 50,000 miles and not had a problem", which is great and I appreciate that there are reliable ones out there. I'm just passing on my experiences.
All this "test" shows is that the bias comes from PH members with their own "favorite" imo!
If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests.
The fact is, the Alfa broke, which scuppered it's chances of 'winning' (whatever than means btw, personally i couldn't GAS if some journo prefers a different car than i do), however, neither of the other two cars, which both were driven in a similar fashion, broke.
A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day.
If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......
If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests.
The fact is, the Alfa broke, which scuppered it's chances of 'winning' (whatever than means btw, personally i couldn't GAS if some journo prefers a different car than i do), however, neither of the other two cars, which both were driven in a similar fashion, broke.
A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day.
If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......
@Max_Torque
Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Monday 10th July 21:18
DeltaEvo2 said:
@Max_Torque
Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Saving this post, so if anyone asks for the definition of blind fanboy-ism, I can reference it....Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Nah...just stating some facts.
The Giulia is one of the most exciting things that's happened to the motor industry. People have waited many, many years for this car.
It's trying to dent the German domination and, as a car enthusiast, I welcome the change instead of trying to stereotype someone with the rather abused term of "fanboysm".
The car is amazing and Alfa Romeo should be rewarded for the effort.
The Giulia is one of the most exciting things that's happened to the motor industry. People have waited many, many years for this car.
It's trying to dent the German domination and, as a car enthusiast, I welcome the change instead of trying to stereotype someone with the rather abused term of "fanboysm".
The car is amazing and Alfa Romeo should be rewarded for the effort.
DeltaEvo2 said:
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
Lets just say my definition of "proof" is rather a long way from yours then shall we........ ;-)DeltaEvo2 said:
@Max_Torque
Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Your passion is admirable, but whilst the Alfa ably mixes it with the other two, it's not a proven outright winner (as neither of the others are either). It's possibly the best stab at the Germans since 1945 but they are all equally able, just all have strengths in different areas. Alfa should be commended for jumping in to high with their first offering and bettering the Germans in many areas - they should perhaps also be given a little more slack.Quote: "If Alfa wants to be compared and rated with BMW M and Merc AMG, then they first need to stand head a shoulders with those cars in the same tests"
Alfa wants to be compared? I suggest reading who and what Alfa Romeo are and have been. Formula 1? Enzo Ferrari used to drive for them...Alfa 155 feeding the Germans dust, Alfa 155 V6...just saying.
Also every single review ever done comparing the three cars has proved the Giulia to be the best looking, the better, more entertaining, faster, with the best steering car of them all.
The Giulia trashes both cars you know it, everyone knows it...
Quote: "A truly 'biased' test would have swept the alfa's failure under the carpet, and awarded it the win. But it did break, and it did "lose" on that particular day."
We are discussing the video posted by PH. Not a very good and fair review in my opinion but I won't repeat myself, read the reasons in the previous comments.
Quote: "If you personally prefer the alfa, go and buy one, all the dealers sell them (although i suspect the venn diagram overlap between "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......"
I don't really understand what that is supposed to mean...
Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde = 191mph, 0-60 in 3.9 secs, rear wheel drive four door saloon = Supercar.
Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Monday 10th July 21:18
As for Max's "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......", I think he's asserting that only chavs would buy such a car 'innit. Ignorance is bliss, and best ignored
MegaCat said:
urquattroGus said:
Stunned by how great my 17 plate car has been over the past 5000 or so miles. No problems at all so far.
The best mod has been to have the exhaust valves always open, it sounds great like that.
Talk to Milltek ; )The best mod has been to have the exhaust valves always open, it sounds great like that.
I can't stop putting mine in Race now
I simply disconnected and plugged the vacuum lines to the two rear flap actuators.
It's actually not at all obtrusive when cruising or on the motorway, and it let's you hear the engine snarling from low revs, not just up high like dynamic when the flaps only open at higher revs.
At idle or when revved this car doesn't sound that great, but once on the move the sound is fantastic. So many people have commented at work on how good it sounds.
That coupled with the fantastic steering, handling and ride and it's a lovely car for a quick blast, or a long journey.
The only minor complaint I have is some wind whistling at higher speeds around the mirrors, maybe door seals.
Ares said:
Your passion is admirable, but whilst the Alfa ably mixes it with the other two, it's not a proven outright winner (as neither of the others are either). It's possibly the best stab at the Germans since 1945 but they are all equally able, just all have strengths in different areas. Alfa should be commended for jumping in to high with their first offering and bettering the Germans in many areas - they should perhaps also be given a little more slack.
As for Max's "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......", I think he's asserting that only chavs would buy such a car 'innit. Ignorance is bliss, and best ignored
To your latter point I don't think that's what Max is saying. As for Max's "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......", I think he's asserting that only chavs would buy such a car 'innit. Ignorance is bliss, and best ignored
I read it as more of a comment on the general inanity of You Tube commentators and the rabid idiocy of car fanboys asserting their choice of car is "the best". One could have substituted Alfa, for Mercedes or BMW in his quote I suspect. He is probably right that most commentators claiming "xxx is best" can't afford their stated "winner" and likely have neither driven it nor the competition.
The whole " the Germans" thing is incredibly tedious. A good car is a good car irrespective of where it originates. The fact that Alfa have built one which can go head to head with cars of the quality of the M3 and C63 is great news for Alfa and great news for punters in this market.
Ares said:
As for Max's "i can actually afford such a car" and "i think the alfa is the best car ever, init" is rather small......", I think he's asserting that only chavs would buy such a car 'innit. Ignorance is bliss, and best ignored
I think he's saying not many of the vocal crowd have the means regardless...
. The car broke down you 
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