RE: Ford Focus RS at the 'ring: Time For Coffee
Discussion
Robert-lhcbq said:
If on track it's down to the driver then why are we here comparing times. They're all meaningless. Different drivers, different tyres, different power outputs to factory.
Everyone who has been in or seen my RS is impressed by it. Maybe I should take you for a spin. Trust me, it's awesome.
Note, 13.5s at 105.8mph is very similar to what a manual E46 M3 can do over the 1/4 mile.
343hp, approx 1550kg. Close to the specs of an RS. So how is the RS slow for its power and weight?
To be fair the E46 M3 is a 17-18 years old. Car performance has vastly improved in that time. Great car though. It's also a good bit faster than 13.5sec. Guys were getting into the 12s back in their day. Everyone who has been in or seen my RS is impressed by it. Maybe I should take you for a spin. Trust me, it's awesome.
Note, 13.5s at 105.8mph is very similar to what a manual E46 M3 can do over the 1/4 mile.
343hp, approx 1550kg. Close to the specs of an RS. So how is the RS slow for its power and weight?
The E92 335i from 2006 and 306bhp manages 106mph. Big car, open diff and a manual box. The auto was a good bit slower.
A 335bhp M140i will be mid 12s at 112mph. A Golf R with 296bhp will do very low 13s at 105mph. The Civic with 315bhp will clock 106mph. There is plenty with less or similar power cars faster. The hyper hatches are on another performance level completely.
Robert-lhcbq said:
Thing is, I paid 32k for mine. Others pre ordered when RRP was 29k. Residuals are also far better on the RS.
There is more RS up for sale than A45. It's only the cheapest ones that move and there was a few in the £26k bracket last week. £27k this week. Every week the amount for sale steadily increases. It's over 200 on Autotrader alone. Dealers are sitting with cars too. Supply is outstripping demand. Values were rock solid for a while, but there is a steady depreciation happening now.
BMW are doing the same with the M2. The demand has dropped and they are trying too hard to protect values. Dealers have registered cars to hit sales figures because they can't shift them. They are also suggesting little or no discounts.
Someone is going to take the hit down the line as there is too many performance cars to choose from and always someone bigger and better coming.
The A45 values aren't bad at all. The cheapest is £23.5k after 4 years. If the Focus retains a higher percentage than that after 4 years it won't be by much.
Ford are only brave enough to offer £16k on a PCP. It's a dealer saying £16,993 after only 3 years.
Ahbefive said:
Because he said so. And around and around we go.
It's like you are on a different planet.
Of course a Rwd car with similar power and less drivetrain losses will pull a second on an RS. Who cares?
Where are you finding these 26k RSs? I can't find one for less than 29k at a year old and they cost that new. Tne A45 on the other hand, I cab see plenty that cost 45k new and are now at 25k 2 years later.
Of course a Rwd car with similar power and less drivetrain losses will pull a second on an RS. Who cares?
Where are you finding these 26k RSs? I can't find one for less than 29k at a year old and they cost that new. Tne A45 on the other hand, I cab see plenty that cost 45k new and are now at 25k 2 years later.
Driver101 said:
You're also comparing the best ever 1 in 1000 times of an E46 with worst times for RS's.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?...
You also seem to be comparing times of cars fitted with auto gearboxes to a manual. A 7 or 8 speed auto is it course going to nail a 6 speed manual on the strip.
Lowest on autotrader is 28995 at the moment, a high mile 2016, which will have cost £28995 plus options new. Webuyanycar offer me 1k less than I paid new. Happy with that.
Economics would also suggest that there being more RS's on sale would hit values even harder! Lol. This thing called supply and demand. So you're statement that there's loads for sale can only mean residuals will get better once production stops and more 2nd hand ones get bought up.
Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Friday 21st July 21:17
Let's approach this another way. With the RS being so slow in a straight line, it's a blooming miracle that it appears to set times that are as fast if not faster than its rivals on track.
The ring is definitely a power circuit, so cup2s or not, a 8:06 must mean it's a beast in the corners no....?
I'm looking forward to your logic on this one.
The ring is definitely a power circuit, so cup2s or not, a 8:06 must mean it's a beast in the corners no....?
I'm looking forward to your logic on this one.
Robert-lhcbq said:
Yes an E46 is old, but it has the same power and weight.
You're also comparing cars with auto gearboxes to a manual. An 8 speed auto is it course going to nail a 6 speed manual on the strip.
Lowest on autotrader is 28995 at the moment, a high mile 2016, which will have cost £28995 plus options new. Not bad.
The cheapest is £27,995 just now and between 5k and 16k miles. You've done something wrong with your search. The £26k ones from last week have gone. It has gone from 160 to over 200 cars in recent weeks and too early for PCP returns.You're also comparing cars with auto gearboxes to a manual. An 8 speed auto is it course going to nail a 6 speed manual on the strip.
Lowest on autotrader is 28995 at the moment, a high mile 2016, which will have cost £28995 plus options new. Not bad.
I'm not compairing autos. 335i manual, Golf R manual, Civic is manual only. The good boxes make a difference, but not that much.
It is the same power and weight, but there is a whole lot more to it than that. Pick any power figure between now and back then and you'll see a big performance increase. Aside any anomoly such as a car 200kg lighter.
Ahbefive said:
It's like you are on a different planet.
Of course a Rwd car with similar power and less drivetrain losses will pull a second on an RS. Who cares?
Where are you finding these 26k RSs? I can't find one for less than 29k at a year old and they cost that new. Tne A45 on the other hand, I cab see plenty that cost 45k new and are now at 25k 2 years later.
How can your search engine work in such a bizarre way? It appears to find only what you want to see. £25k 2 year old A45 at £45k spec? The cheapest 2.5 year old car is £25,800. The third cheapest 15 plate is £27,000. You always exaggerate and make up things to suit.Of course a Rwd car with similar power and less drivetrain losses will pull a second on an RS. Who cares?
Where are you finding these 26k RSs? I can't find one for less than 29k at a year old and they cost that new. Tne A45 on the other hand, I cab see plenty that cost 45k new and are now at 25k 2 years later.
I would expect a RWD to pull on a similarly powered 4wd car. I wouldn't expect it to catch and pull 1 second on the drag strip. That's a huge gap.
Who cares????
Every time someone says something about the RS you don't like you go nuts and defend it to the hilt. Without any doubt at all you care more than anyone.
I'm out as this has gone on too long. Go have a beer.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 21st July 21:37
You are showing us cars that were £30k new and 1 year later are £28k like that is a bad thing?
What are you saying I have made up? A45s were not £38k new 2 years ago, they were all very much over £40k and have so far lost £10k or so.
Either way this residual talk is not very interesting and the RS wins that hands down no question. It just seems odd that you for some reason are pretending that the RS is slow. Have you ever even driven one? I don't think so and so I don't value your opinion on them one bit.
Maybe you should have a drive or at least let someone take you out for a spin and base your opinion on experience.
What are you saying I have made up? A45s were not £38k new 2 years ago, they were all very much over £40k and have so far lost £10k or so.
Either way this residual talk is not very interesting and the RS wins that hands down no question. It just seems odd that you for some reason are pretending that the RS is slow. Have you ever even driven one? I don't think so and so I don't value your opinion on them one bit.
Maybe you should have a drive or at least let someone take you out for a spin and base your opinion on experience.
Edited by Ahbefive on Friday 21st July 21:53
Robert-lhcbq said:
Debaser said:
Zero understeer? Must feel bloody weird to drive!
Never raced a kart? I feel sorry for you if you've never turned a steering wheel and immediately felt the car turn in the direction you want. What a feeling! From Dan Trent:
For the avoidance of doubt though - and as referenced in our Focus RS review - the cars did start to understeer towards the end of our track session. Where earlier you'd power through on turn-in and the car would rotate on the throttle through the same corner, same gear and same speed it just pushed on. I'm guessing the front tyres were overheated/shot and once that's happened no amount of rear torque bias is going to overcome the lack of grip at the front end. As MaxTorque pointed out in the thread too there's only so much you can do to overcome the fundamental balance of a car based on a front-driven, transverse-engined hatchback so I guess there comes a point there the front tyres are simply overloaded and call time.
I.e. before the tyres are goosed, zero understeer. Objective met. Guess I've gone to school of Sebastian Vettel tyre management
Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Friday 21st July 16:31
Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Friday 21st July 16:32
I agree with you though that having a really responsive front end can be good fun.
havoc said:
scherzkeks said:
Alex said:
Kawasicki said:
Repeat after me....
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...
Compared to a regular race track it is, but not when compared to a B-road (especially in the UK!). The 'Ring is pretty smooth.The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...
The funny part is that in the SA article, the author claims the hard damper setting is too hard for the Ring and the soft too plush. Ford also said they didn't really focus on Ring testing.
So a car 'set-up' at the 'ring will be set-up to deal well with 3-figure speeds and fast corners, all on reasonably unbroken tarmac. All of this leads to stiffer suspension, both in compression and rebound, to give better car-control (and less pitch/roll), and therefore get a better lap-time.
Now compare to how most buyers will use their cars - 50-80mph is a typical 'window' of fun speeds in the UK, often on twisty minor-A and B-roads. Rather different, eh? And requiring a different suspension approach - something with progressive springs and (much) softer rebound would probably suit a UK back-road blast perfectly.
And it's not just the UK back-roads that are a mess - go to (most of) Belgium, go to parts of France, parts of Italy...
...so we're facing a situation (have been for ~10 years) where manufacturers are pursuing a performance window that most customers will never/rarely encounter, to the detriment of the performance window where the cars will spend far more of their time...
Edited by Roma101 on Friday 21st July 22:20
blade7 said:
And yet you keep biting, why?
Glutton for idiots I guess. I blame it on a rainy Friday night with no plans giving me idle hands and this topic interests me as I have just got bacl from the 'Ring and have an RS.On a side note at the 'Ring there really was a lot of Porsches, BMWs, Renaults as you might expect but also about 6 mk3 Focus RS which were all separate from eachother. Must mean they are popular on track and usually for good reason.
Roma101 said:
Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. I do wonder if any German suspension engineer has ever driven around our roads.
Does it though? Have you driven around the Nurburgring and indeed the roads around the Nurburgring? It's certainly not all silky smooth tarmac and no ruts. German roads are not much better than the ones in the UK ime.Edited by Ahbefive on Friday 21st July 22:21
In gear times are interesting and give an idea of the affect of dsg shift speeds and 7 speed gearing on acceleration times.
Left to right, focus RS, golf R dsg, RS3 dsg.
Through the years 30-70 the RS3 leaves it for dead. But forced to stay in one gear, they're pretty comparable over 30-50 and 50-70.
Left to right, focus RS, golf R dsg, RS3 dsg.
Through the years 30-70 the RS3 leaves it for dead. But forced to stay in one gear, they're pretty comparable over 30-50 and 50-70.
Ahbefive said:
Roma101 said:
Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. I do wonder if any German suspension engineer has ever driven around our roads.
Does it though? Have you driven around the Nurburgring and indeed the roads around the Nurburgring? It's certainly not all silky smooth tarmac and no ruts. German roads are not muxh better than the ones in the UK ime.Please come to Hertfordshire and you will see what I mean!
You will think the Ring is a big comfy bed after driving our roads.
Ahbefive said:
I am in Hertfordshire every day. I guess we see different things in the same place.
I actually find the M40 more cosetting than the fabled Autobahns too. Maybe I was on the wrong Autobahns.
What are the chances of that! I actually find the M40 more cosetting than the fabled Autobahns too. Maybe I was on the wrong Autobahns.
Edited by Ahbefive on Friday 21st July 22:26
Well, there is no point in getting into an argument about opinions. We'll agree to disagree about the state of the Herts roads.
BricktopST205 said:
Both mid 00's Evo's and JDM imprezas will lap faster than a 2017 Focus RS. That is 15 years ago on 15 year old tyre technology. Make of that as you will.
Source for that?
For me it is quite an achievement that these cars are 15 seconds slower. Including a 400bhp impreza Cosworth. Progress indeed as this car is heavier and loaded with safety features as well as being down on power to many cars on the list.
Edited by Ahbefive on Saturday 22 July 12:25
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