RE: Ford Focus RS at the 'ring: Time For Coffee

[IanCress]

Tuvra said:

Lack of top end grunt and gear ratios possibly? Factory standard Evo 6/7's top out at between 140-150mph, these latest "hyper hatches" are 165mph+.

I think they were geared quite short as they didn't come on boost until around 3000rpm. Modern turbo cars can haul from less than 2000rpm, so can be geared longer.

[havoc]

Tuvra said:

Kawasicki said:

WCZ said:

evo's have never set great ring times either but on the road they are one of if not the fastest cars around

How does that work then?

Lack of top end grunt and gear ratios possibly? Factory standard Evo 6/7's top out at between 140-150mph, these latest "hyper hatches" are 165mph+.

In the days before CO2 and fuel economy became the be-all of buying a performance car!

And they never used wide or ultra-sticky tyres - 225/45/17's on the VI/VII/VIII variants.

[ZX10R NIN]

Robert-lhcbq said:

Note the difference between the sport auto lap times and the manufacturer lap times for various cara.

Against its rivals, 8:06 vs...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

A45 AMG with 8:10, face lift with 8.04.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

Civic type R and golf R both did 8:15

So all in all, that RS time is pretty rapid.

They also dyno'd the RS after and it was down on power too running just 326PS. See article below;

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/supertest/ford-...

That makes the Focus's time seem quite respectable.

[FN2TypeR]

I bet that the suspension, brakes and tyres take a right old beating at the Ring considering what a porker this thing is

I do like 'em though, I see a grey one on the way home from work most days, very smart indeed IMO

[V10Ace]

Kawasicki said:

Repeat after me....

The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...

I wouldn't even bother wasting my time, they are all already stuck on repeat...

Sad....

[scherzkeks]

havoc said:

scherzkeks said:

Alex said:

Kawasicki said:

Repeat after me....

The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...

Compared to a regular race track it is, but not when compared to a B-road (especially in the UK!). The 'Ring is pretty smooth.

So are most roads in Germany. The Ring is a perfect test facility for pushing road cars to their limits.

The funny part is that in the SA article, the author claims the hard damper setting is too hard for the Ring and the soft too plush. Ford also said they didn't really focus on Ring testing.

Typical speeds at the 'ring, even for a hot-hatch, are c.100mph or so.

So a car 'set-up' at the 'ring will be set-up to deal well with 3-figure speeds and fast corners, all on reasonably unbroken tarmac. All of this leads to stiffer suspension, both in compression and rebound, to give better car-control (and less pitch/roll), and therefore get a better lap-time.

Now compare to how most buyers will use their cars - 50-80mph is a typical 'window' of fun speeds in the UK, often on twisty minor-A and B-roads. Rather different, eh? And requiring a different suspension approach - something with progressive springs and (much) softer rebound would probably suit a UK back-road blast perfectly.

And it's not just the UK back-roads that are a mess - go to (most of) Belgium, go to parts of France, parts of Italy...


...so we're facing a situation (have been for ~10 years) where manufacturers are pursuing a performance window that most customers will never/rarely encounter, to the detriment of the performance window where the cars will spend far more of their time...

As already mentioned, in the SA article, the tester said the comfort setting was too plush for the ring (and the sport/track mode too stiff). I would imagine comfort would do quite well on UK roads. The overall message in the article is that the car is not really for the track, nor was it tested extensively on the Ring.

[RacerMike]

FN2TypeR said:

I bet that the suspension, brakes and tyres take a right old beating at the Ring considering what a porker this thing is

I do like 'em though, I see a grey one on the way home from work most days, very smart indeed IMO

A porker by PH standards where every car apparently weighs 1000kg other than every new one that appears that's 'overweight' at 1500kg. I did 15 laps in mine (plus 12 laps of Silverstone) and the tyres are still at 5mm without significant tread block wear, and the brakes are absolutely fine. They're only about 25% worn, and were strong throughout the laps without any vibration, significant fade or grumbling. All very impressive really.

[topless360]

Kawasicki said:

Repeat after me....

The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...

This

[Robert-lhcbq]

RacerMike said:

A porker by PH standards where every car apparently weighs 1000kg other than every new one that appears that's 'overweight' at 1500kg. I did 15 laps in mine (plus 12 laps of Silverstone) and the tyres are still at 5mm without significant tread block wear, and the brakes are absolutely fine. They're only about 25% worn, and were strong throughout the laps without any vibration, significant fade or grumbling. All very impressive really.

Is this the cup 2's?

My PSS's seem to have suffered after much less track time than that, particularly the inner tread blocks which have crumbled on the inner edge next to the first groove (think I ran the pressures a tad too high).

Wondering whether to go cup2 or PS4S next. Sounds like cup2 might be a good idea from your experience above.

Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Thursday 20th July 14:21

[Integroo]

ZX10R NIN said:

Robert-lhcbq said:

Note the difference between the sport auto lap times and the manufacturer lap times for various cara.

Against its rivals, 8:06 vs...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

A45 AMG with 8:10, face lift with 8.04.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

Civic type R and golf R both did 8:15

So all in all, that RS time is pretty rapid.

They also dyno'd the RS after and it was down on power too running just 326PS. See article below;

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/supertest/ford-...

That makes the Focus's time seem quite respectable.

That's the old Type R, the FK2. The FK8 lapped it 7s quicker. If you take 7s of the FK2's SportAutos time, you get similar times to the RS.

[FN2TypeR]

RacerMike said:

FN2TypeR said:

I bet that the suspension, brakes and tyres take a right old beating at the Ring considering what a porker this thing is

I do like 'em though, I see a grey one on the way home from work most days, very smart indeed IMO

A porker by PH standards where every car apparently weighs 1000kg other than every new one that appears that's 'overweight' at 1500kg. I did 15 laps in mine (plus 12 laps of Silverstone) and the tyres are still at 5mm without significant tread block wear, and the brakes are absolutely fine. They're only about 25% worn, and were strong throughout the laps without any vibration, significant fade or grumbling. All very impressive really.

Impressive indeed - what rubber? I've been in lighter cars that suffered more than that in fairness.

[Robert-lhcbq]

Integroo said:

ZX10R NIN said:

Robert-lhcbq said:

Note the difference between the sport auto lap times and the manufacturer lap times for various cara.

Against its rivals, 8:06 vs...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

A45 AMG with 8:10, face lift with 8.04.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

Civic type R and golf R both did 8:15

So all in all, that RS time is pretty rapid.

They also dyno'd the RS after and it was down on power too running just 326PS. See article below;

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/supertest/ford-...

That makes the Focus's time seem quite respectable.

That's the old Type R, the FK2. The FK8 lapped it 7s quicker. If you take 7s of the FK2's SportAutos time, you get similar times to the RS.

There's no test for the latest one so I didn't put it up. It's not exactly old given it was released what, last year?

But last year's model was supposedly quicker and better on track than the RS according to the PH review so I thought the time was still relevant regardless.

Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Thursday 20th July 14:39

Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Thursday 20th July 14:57

[RacerMike]

FN2TypeR said:

RacerMike said:

FN2TypeR said:

I bet that the suspension, brakes and tyres take a right old beating at the Ring considering what a porker this thing is

I do like 'em though, I see a grey one on the way home from work most days, very smart indeed IMO

A porker by PH standards where every car apparently weighs 1000kg other than every new one that appears that's 'overweight' at 1500kg. I did 15 laps in mine (plus 12 laps of Silverstone) and the tyres are still at 5mm without significant tread block wear, and the brakes are absolutely fine. They're only about 25% worn, and were strong throughout the laps without any vibration, significant fade or grumbling. All very impressive really.

Impressive indeed - what rubber? I've been in lighter cars that suffered more than that in fairness.

Cup 2s running at the correct pressures (2.1-2.2bar hot). They're past their peak now, but far from falling apart....

[Ahbefive]

Integroo said:

Ahbefive said:

I was at the 'Ring last weekend.

My friends and I managed to get laps in the region of 9-10minutes and even that felt pretty scary at points. 8minutes is absolutely flying round there.

In what car? A Focus RS?

I took my megane R26 as I thought driving a £35k car round there for the first time might be pushing my luck a bit.

[nickfrog]

Ahbefive said:

I took my megane R26 as I thought driving a £35k car round there for the first time might be pushing my luck a bit.

Wise move ! After 200 laps or so those 9-10min laps will feel slow yet you'll be much more confident and "on top of things" rather than being tentative.

I assume this is BTG ?

[nickfrog]

Alex said:

Kawasicki said:

Repeat after me....

The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
The 'Ring is bumpy
...

Compared to a regular race track it is, but not when compared to a B-road (especially in the UK!). The 'Ring is pretty smooth.

That has been my experience over the past few years there - pretty smooth apart from the concrete bits. Not quite as billiard smooth as a conventional track of course.

I think by bumpy, Kawasicki might mean undulated, as in lower frequency stuff as opposed to the "granularity" of the surface, which obviously also test the kinematics.

[Integroo]

Robert-lhcbq said:

Integroo said:

ZX10R NIN said:

Robert-lhcbq said:

Note the difference between the sport auto lap times and the manufacturer lap times for various cara.

Against its rivals, 8:06 vs...

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

A45 AMG with 8:10, face lift with 8.04.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/su...

Civic type R and golf R both did 8:15

So all in all, that RS time is pretty rapid.

They also dyno'd the RS after and it was down on power too running just 326PS. See article below;

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/supertest/ford-...

That makes the Focus's time seem quite respectable.

That's the old Type R, the FK2. The FK8 lapped it 7s quicker. If you take 7s of the FK2's SportAutos time, you get similar times to the RS.

There's no test for the latest one so I didn't put it up. It's not exactly old given it was released what, last year?

But last year's model was supposedly quicker and better on track than the RS according to the PH review so I thought the time was still relevant regardless.

Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Thursday 20th July 14:39

Edited by Robert-lhcbq on Thursday 20th July 14:57

No, absolutely, I agree, and the manufacturer's times cannot be readily compared to the SportsAuto times. Just one to be kept in mind.

[Ahbefive]

nickfrog said:

Ahbefive said:

I took my megane R26 as I thought driving a £35k car round there for the first time might be pushing my luck a bit.

Wise move ! After 200 laps or so those 9-10min laps will feel slow yet you'll be much more confident and "on top of things" rather than being tentative.

I assume this is BTG ?

Yeh BTG, I think I will feel much more confident after 30 laps or so but yes after 200 laps I'd hope to know it as well as I do Donington or Silverstone.

Can't wait to go again. Pic of us 4 lined up before going out.

Edited by Ahbefive on Thursday 20th July 17:01

[nickfrog]

Ahbefive said:

Yeh BTG, I think I will feel much more confident after 30 laps or so but yes after 200 laps I'd hope to know it as well as I do Donington or Silverstone.

Careful, the place is very addictive !!

[Ahbefive]

Too late, already looking to return. Tentatively still though as there were nine accidents in the 2 days that we were there. It was interesting to get a wet lap in on the Saturday morning too, so much slower and less populated.

Edited by Ahbefive on Thursday 20th July 17:26