RE: Lotus Evora GT430 - official!
Discussion
kambites said:
The Evora appears to be stiffer than the 12C, I can't see figures for the more modern Mclarens but I can't imagine that either of them suffers from noticeable chassis flex.
Don't get me wrong the, Mclaren is a remarkable car and in many ways probably a superior product, but arguing "it's carbon so it must be better" is spec whoring of the highest degree. Similarly with the engine; yes the Lotus engine is a Toyota unit but does the badge really matter? No-one who's experienced it seems to actually complain about how it behaves, which is more than can be said of the Mclaren unit which has come in from considerable criticism from the press.
I don't think there can be any question that the Evora in performance and delivery terms is right up there with the most expensive of the mainstream products. Don't get me wrong the, Mclaren is a remarkable car and in many ways probably a superior product, but arguing "it's carbon so it must be better" is spec whoring of the highest degree. Similarly with the engine; yes the Lotus engine is a Toyota unit but does the badge really matter? No-one who's experienced it seems to actually complain about how it behaves, which is more than can be said of the Mclaren unit which has come in from considerable criticism from the press.
Edited by kambites on Friday 21st July 15:34
I actually think the minicab lump they've dumped on top of the Evora sounds better than the specialist unit powering the Maclaren. But generally, while they still use the Toyota engine and still have a body that is a bit too dumpy and a dashboard section that's a bit Punto under the veneer of modern/sporty fabrics there is room for improvements to turn it into the bargain price giant killer that it already has achieved in performance stakes.
Thorburn said:
What comparable car is £65k? We're talking something with quite a bit of carbon fibre (the engine cover/bootlid on the Sport 410 and GT430 is huge and looks stunning imo), titanium exhaust, limited production run, etc.
I agree it's just public perception of Lotus is such that people want a bargain imo it's seen as a cheaper alternative to Porsche, not a more expensive one
cathalm said:
The McLaren engine is not race derived, its a bought in design from Ricardo. The Lotus does not have a fibreglass tub, it's aluminium and extremely stiff indeed. The carbon parts on the Evora here contribute to the drop in weight from the original Evora and are responsible for the 250kg of downforce.
Although he is entirely and hilariously wrong about the chassis material (and as such we should take every thing he says with a pinch of salt) he is vaguely correct about the engine which has it's roots long, long ago (1997) as Nissan GT1 engine designed by TWR for Le Mans. How much of that engine design remains in the road model is questionable, however, and as many have said, the 3.5 in the Lotus certainly sounds a hell of a lot better than the V8 in the McLaren.bobo79 said:
Although he is entirely and hilariously wrong about the chassis material (and as such we should take every thing he says with a pinch of salt) he is vaguely correct about the engine which has it's roots long, long ago (1997) as Nissan GT1 engine designed by TWR for Le Mans. How much of that engine design remains in the road model is questionable, however, and as many have said, the 3.5 in the Lotus certainly sounds a hell of a lot better than the V8 in the McLaren.
the 3.5 sounds really great, and being Toyota its so far been very reliable for Lotus. Whats not to like about that? I think the only weakness is the clutch in the equation - its limiting the torque being up'd. bosshog said:
the 3.5 sounds really great, and being Toyota its so far been very reliable for Lotus. Whats not to like about that? I think the only weakness is the clutch in the equation - its limiting the torque being up'd.
Agreed. And until they move to an electric or hybrid driveline I suspect that will always be an issue for them if they use a transverse mid-mounted engine driving the rear wheels - as they are effectively stuck with a transmission that otherwise lives in a front engined, front wheel drive car. And you don't really get engines like this in cars like that. I believe the transmission for the Evora comes out of a diesel of some kind which at least means it's likely to be able to withstand more torque but they appear to have hit the limit - funnily enough just as they did with the Esprit V8 which could have been far more powerful if it wasn't using a geriatric Renault gearbox.bobo79 said:
cathalm said:
The McLaren engine is not race derived, its a bought in design from Ricardo. The Lotus does not have a fibreglass tub, it's aluminium and extremely stiff indeed. The carbon parts on the Evora here contribute to the drop in weight from the original Evora and are responsible for the 250kg of downforce.
Although he is entirely and hilariously wrong about the chassis material (and as such we should take every thing he says with a pinch of salt) he is vaguely correct about the engine which has it's roots long, long ago (1997) as Nissan GT1 engine designed by TWR for Le Mans. How much of that engine design remains in the road model is questionable, however, and as many have said, the 3.5 in the Lotus certainly sounds a hell of a lot better than the V8 in the McLaren.Yes the Macca engine is a development of the Nissan GT1 engine. As is the 996/997.1 GT/Turbo engine from the Porsche 911 GT1. Both do not sound very nice with a couple of turbos strapped on but come on chaps a Toyota Camry engine! Really?!
The exterior carbon on the Lotus or the Macca or Porsche etc hardly reduces weight in a meaningful way for a road car. Wet these are 1400kg cars! Even if the carbon saved 30kgs its pointless in car weighing 1400kgs lol. Its mostly decorative
Look whatever anyone says on here the basic fact is that Lotus has been limping on forever. It needs investment on the back of a decent business plan. Easier said than done as no-one in the UK since the second world war has made a profit making planes, trains and automobiles other than McLaren with their road cars. Truth is if people hadn't stumped up £1m or whatever it was for the P1 they wouldn't be profitable in that particular year - and I suspect on a cashflow basis investment into McLaren road cars has been disastrous for investors. If there's a global dip in next few years I wouldn't want to own a sports car manufacturer other than Porsche and even they will have to batten down the hatches with whats going on at VW...
I know that aesthetics are subjective, but an Evora draws lots of admiring attention, so I don't necessarily understand the comments about its looks, especially the ones that say it should look like a £200k car - its not a £200k car.
A 911 of any flavour also doesn't look like a £200k car, nor does the Audi R8 despite being close to that in price so it seems a strange criticism to aim at the Evora.
Its also odd that people don't like the looks of the Evora calling it dumpy, but the 4c doesn't get the criticism. I have had both side by side on my drive, the 4c is dumpier than the Evora.
Too many people on a band wagon detracting Lotus and the Evora, when they should be applauded for doing what they do with very limited resources especially on the marketing front.
A 911 of any flavour also doesn't look like a £200k car, nor does the Audi R8 despite being close to that in price so it seems a strange criticism to aim at the Evora.
Its also odd that people don't like the looks of the Evora calling it dumpy, but the 4c doesn't get the criticism. I have had both side by side on my drive, the 4c is dumpier than the Evora.
Too many people on a band wagon detracting Lotus and the Evora, when they should be applauded for doing what they do with very limited resources especially on the marketing front.
Desert Dragon said:
I'm still not a fan of the Macca as its styling is too fussy but its priced remarkably well as is the 720 S. The Evora is just plain awful on the other hand. Looked dated the day it was released and its embarrassing even mentioning it in the same breath as the Macca. Styling has well just moved on when you look at some of the stuff coming out of sports cars manufacturers .
You forget to mention the V8 in the Macca is a proper dry sump race derived engine. Also the carbon in the Macca is used to make the tub where it provides the most benefit. This Lotus on the other hand has a fibreglass tub which is nowhere near as stiff (all the Lotus' carbon is basically next to useless as its mainly decorative/pointless) and I think the engine is nicked from a Toyota Camry!
"........This Lotus on the other hand has a fibreglass tub which is nowhere near as stiff......."You forget to mention the V8 in the Macca is a proper dry sump race derived engine. Also the carbon in the Macca is used to make the tub where it provides the most benefit. This Lotus on the other hand has a fibreglass tub which is nowhere near as stiff (all the Lotus' carbon is basically next to useless as its mainly decorative/pointless) and I think the engine is nicked from a Toyota Camry!
You have truly brightened my day!
Edited by 61GT on Friday 21st July 18:10
Desert Dragon said:
Sorry last time I was at the factory Lotus were still making the Esprit GT3!
Ah right - yes - things moved on a lot with the Elise S1 which was the first to use a bonded extruded aliminium chassis. All Lotus models since then have used the same principle, as have Aston Martin who got Lotus to design VVA used for all Astons since the DB9.Desert Dragon said:
Yes the Macca engine is a development of the Nissan GT1 engine. As is the 996/997.1 GT/Turbo engine from the Porsche 911 GT1. Both do not sound very nice with a couple of turbos strapped on but come on chaps a Toyota Camry engine! Really?!
Have you heard it? It sounds sensational! Who cares where it comes from when it sounds (and drives) this well?DaveGB said:
Appears Lotus got the pricing spot on, as UK allocation has sold out in 24 hrs.
Good news for Lotus
For those who think it was too expensive, go test drive a 400. 1 year old cars at £60k represent great value for money and wait till you hear that exhaust
Unfortunately those are the people who want a rolex for casio money and will want a used Evora for used Golf money. Good news for Lotus
For those who think it was too expensive, go test drive a 400. 1 year old cars at £60k represent great value for money and wait till you hear that exhaust
I am not sure why they can't accept that some things are out of their price range. I have the same issue with a Ferrar 488, but I don't go insisting they are over priced.
Desert Dragon said:
Sorry last time I was at the factory Lotus were still making the Esprit GT3! In fact it had just been released and I was allowed to take it for a drive. On that visit the tubs were being made out of layers of fibre glass put in what looks like a very wide bath tub and layered before a bonding solution was injected into it to make it set. Apologies if that chassis construction methodology has changed. I'm pleased it has as the old tubs go out of shape after a while!
I didn't think the old Esprit bodies were structural - everything sat on their backbone box chassis, with a similar arrangement in the earlier Europa and Excel?I'd recommend the factory tour - a lot has changed with the company, and the new machines are good to sit in. You can also pop over the road to the Classic Lotus site, which manages all of their historic race machines and will happily show you round them.
Tuna said:
Desert Dragon said:
Sorry last time I was at the factory Lotus were still making the Esprit GT3! In fact it had just been released and I was allowed to take it for a drive. On that visit the tubs were being made out of layers of fibre glass put in what looks like a very wide bath tub and layered before a bonding solution was injected into it to make it set. Apologies if that chassis construction methodology has changed. I'm pleased it has as the old tubs go out of shape after a while!
I didn't think the old Esprit bodies were structural - everything sat on their backbone box chassis, with a similar arrangement in the earlier Europa and Excel?I'd recommend the factory tour - a lot has changed with the company, and the new machines are good to sit in. You can also pop over the road to the Classic Lotus site, which manages all of their historic race machines and will happily show you round them.
Wasnt the tub the thing containing passengers fixed to that
DaveGB said:
Appears Lotus got the pricing spot on, as UK allocation has sold out in 24 hrs.
Good news for Lotus
For those who think it was too expensive, go test drive a 400. 1 year old cars at £60k represent great value for money and wait till you hear that exhaust
I couldn't disagree (and I'm certainly considering a SECOND HAND 400) As a new car, however, it does look expensive, particularly as you know it will suffer a lot of depreciation which makes a second buy so much more attractive. Catch 22 for Lotus.Good news for Lotus
For those who think it was too expensive, go test drive a 400. 1 year old cars at £60k represent great value for money and wait till you hear that exhaust
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