RE: Lotus Evora GT430 - official!
Discussion
kambites said:
It's perfectly possible for a company to be successful without being mass-market. I think Lotus's problem has been that it's tended to sit rather uncomfortably on the fence; too big to make a profit being truly niche and too small to manage the economies of scale to let them compete directly with the mainstream.
From the point of view of the market (as opposed to the jobs of the people who work there or in the supply chain), I'd as soon see Lotus go bust as go mainstream. Porsche are already very good at making Porsches, the market doesn't need another company to do exactly the same. Having said that, Lotus have already gone too mainstream for me, I almost certainly wont buy another.
Agreed, this is probably the rawest car on sale with a roof, but I loved the silliness of the mk1 exige, it was tiny and proportioned like a racing car, the mk2 less so. Looks still matter. They should definitely be more confident as a company, such pedigree, and a superb F1 legacy. I tried to sit in an Evora with the bucket seats, tried was the word, very compromising with my back and lack of flexibility, almost reassuring that people make silly hard to use cars. From the point of view of the market (as opposed to the jobs of the people who work there or in the supply chain), I'd as soon see Lotus go bust as go mainstream. Porsche are already very good at making Porsches, the market doesn't need another company to do exactly the same. Having said that, Lotus have already gone too mainstream for me, I almost certainly wont buy another.
kambites said:
From the point of view of the market (as opposed to the jobs of the people who work there or in the supply chain), I'd as soon see Lotus go bust as go mainstream. Porsche are already very good at making Porsches, the market doesn't need another company to do exactly the same. Having said that, Lotus have already gone too mainstream for me, I almost certainly wont buy another.
There is always the potential that Lotus could a) produce both hardcore and mainstream cars and b) compete with a successful brand. Why would we as car enthusiasts not be excited by two offerings rather than one? Loving what Lotus are doing at the moment- remember the high end products help drag up the image/residuals/desirability of the lower models and improve the overall perception of the brand. Sure there's a long way to go and they're working with yesterdays news but it's far from bad.redroadster said:
Price aside lovely ,would prefer though the wider flared arches to really make it look like there race car ,once they have the Chinese money think they will flourish for once
Yes something like the GTE body which is superb! Not sure why they didn't use that with some tweaks ...Would definitely be a car I'd be buying if I was fortunate enough
Tuna said:
7795 said:
A company almost always has one thing to do above all others and that is make profits to keep shareholders happy. Lotus just has never hit it's stride and found out how to appeal to the mass market. This is unforgivable as far as i'm concerned and goes a long way to explaining why they will always be the nearly boys in the sports car game compared to the other runners.
You have to move with the times, adapt and give the customers you have, and more importantly still, the customers you want what they desire.
You really don't understand Lotus, do you? Kambites does, even if I don't agree with his conclusion.You have to move with the times, adapt and give the customers you have, and more importantly still, the customers you want what they desire.
For as long as this forum has existed, people like you have been demanding that they produce 'mainstream' cars - we either get calls for a Lotus MX-5 or a Lotus-Boxter. Not going to happen (thank God).
Kambites is right that they are at a very difficult size, and lost the ability to compete with the other 'boutique' manufacturers when they couldn't follow up the Esprit with a new model. It's hard to get that back without huge investment, and the owners have not made that possible over the last couple of decades.
However, they don't have to be mainstream or mass-market - they have to be a running business. Gales gets that and has achieved a huge turn round in public perception (and product) in the last few years. Hopefully Geely will allow him to reap the rewards of that consolidation and move to the next phase.
From a personal point of view, I have everything crossed that the next phase is not mass market (though sure, if there's a bread and butter crossover that can pay the bills, I'd be fine with that). I'm hoping we'll keep on seeing cars that explore engineering limits and exciting ways to deliver a unique driving experience. The moment they mush that into a mass market formula that can be churned out for decades, I'll loose all interest. It might excite accountants, but I'm here for the driving.
Time and time again Lotus do nothing different and to say they "explore engineering limits" is frankly laughable. They build high end, lightweight, agile, fast cars with the latest available technology and have done for decades. The key word here is "available technology"!! They do not innovate as you suggest but at the same time this is because they do not have the money to do so as they do not sell enough cars ad infinitum.
They are in a perpetual rut and unless something drastic happens, for example, they make a product that the mass market wants, they will stay there and continue to stagnate pumping out the odd special edition. People will always love them, people will always buy and defends what they do and so do I to an extent.
My caveat is that I love Lotus and I loved TVR and had (showing my age here) a Sport 350, V8 Esprit, Griff 500 and 4.5 Cerbera all from new and so I get why they appeal. They have appealed but I fear time is taking them over now.
Wow, that is a seriously sexy car Lotus! Of course there are the usual comments about price and the fact that it's not a Porsche, bit I think the big news is, is it really as fast as a 3-11? Even if that is the road spec version. I thought that car had giant slaying performance (as in a GT3 wouldn't see which way it went around a track type performance) but perhaps there is a big difference between the road and track only versions?
But anyway...just look <3
But anyway...just look <3
Lots of people mentioning the GT3, but the AMV GT8 is probably a better comparison to it.
You have a base car (Evora 400/Vantage V8) at a similar price point (£70-90k) with a little extra power (400 up to 430 for the Evora, 420 up to 440bhp for the GT8), some different revised body panels, lashings of carbon fibre, titanium exhaust, aero paraphernalia, suspension changes, bit of weight reduction, stripped back interior.
The Evora is £110k and production is limited to 60 cars. The GT8 was £150k and limited to 150 cars, sold out almost immediately, and if you want one now you'll be paying £200-260k.
Said it before, I prefer driving an Evora to a Vantage, and honestly don't think it is a worse built car, so compared to something like that maybe it isn't that far off the mark.
Thing is with a car like this, the Evora 400 doesn't stop existing. Think the GT430 spoiler looks silly, or it is too expensive, the £70k model without the spoiler, etc is still there.
You have a base car (Evora 400/Vantage V8) at a similar price point (£70-90k) with a little extra power (400 up to 430 for the Evora, 420 up to 440bhp for the GT8), some different revised body panels, lashings of carbon fibre, titanium exhaust, aero paraphernalia, suspension changes, bit of weight reduction, stripped back interior.
The Evora is £110k and production is limited to 60 cars. The GT8 was £150k and limited to 150 cars, sold out almost immediately, and if you want one now you'll be paying £200-260k.
Said it before, I prefer driving an Evora to a Vantage, and honestly don't think it is a worse built car, so compared to something like that maybe it isn't that far off the mark.
Thing is with a car like this, the Evora 400 doesn't stop existing. Think the GT430 spoiler looks silly, or it is too expensive, the £70k model without the spoiler, etc is still there.
7795 said:
Correct, I really cannot understand the mindset at Lotus in the same way that I could not ever see how TVR would survive. One trick ponies nearly always die as most people want horses.
etc etc
I guess there are two separate topics :etc etc
1) The 430 - Well I won't be buying one, but absolutely no harm in Lotus bringing new more focused models of the current cars and asking a strong premium. The underlying cars are brilliant (as drivers cars) and these faster, sharper, lighter versions off course have their place. This will be an utterly thrilling drive and I don't care what they ask for it, I just hope they can find buyers and it can contribute to the business.
2) The company - I disagree with you here. They don't have the size and resources to do what you suggest (maybe they will soon have this with new ownership and financing). They are small and must focus on what they know. It would be crazy for example to try and make an Evora fight the 911 only on the 911's terms. Its impossible to reach the broad level of development that Porsche hit in every area. What Lotus have to do is be utterly brilliant at their strengths, and be acceptable in the other areas. Does this mean they are the best car company in the world with a safe and great future? No, of course it doesn't. But it does mean we have a car manufacture that places driver engagement above pretty much everything else. And one that has managed to survive when most other niche manufactures (particularly ones that are not at the very top end of the market) have failed. All of this at reasonably accessible pricing for the mainstream models.
Doesn't matter if you want a 430 or not, we should celebrate that they are still here, seem to be getting stronger, and produce some remarkable cars from fairly mainstream parts. I like M4s and 911s, I like that you also have the choice of something like an Evora.
I love it. Even the wing. Wouldn't change a thing - great balance of aggression and finally moves the Evora away from its slightly ugly bulbous stance.
That said, I'm not sure I would be willing to drop £112k on a Lotus, sorry to say. Love the brand, love the cars, but it would take a brave person to spend that and hope the residuals stood up. They may well do in the current climate of everything limited seemingly gaining ££s and performance wise it competes with its peers in that money arena. My testicles are not that large, however.
That said, I'm not sure I would be willing to drop £112k on a Lotus, sorry to say. Love the brand, love the cars, but it would take a brave person to spend that and hope the residuals stood up. They may well do in the current climate of everything limited seemingly gaining ££s and performance wise it competes with its peers in that money arena. My testicles are not that large, however.
WCZ said:
...crazy to think that a 991 GT3 RS is only £18k more expensive than this though
Economies of scale. If they [Lotus] had the resources to integrate this into an existing production line and push out thousands of cars like Porsche then the unit cost would go down. The switch around on that premise is why is the GT3 RS so much more expensive? Looks great, wouldn't want the blue'd exhaust tip or seat stitching but love the rest.
Porsche911R said:
the GTE was 2011was 438BHP and looked loads better
The car was vapourware as the engine never worked. The ones that made it to the road had the standard 345BHP engines. I don't think it looked better either - certainly not in your pic above - as that isn't even a 'proper' wide bodied GTE lol.
Anyway, The GTE and this look so much more exotic than a 911 GT3. And since Lotus are making so few I imagine they will hold their value very strongly, too - much like those GTEs that made it into the wild (going for more than the new GT430 on the second hand market...).
[quote=Porsche911R]the GTE was 2011was 438BHP and looked loads better
It's 2017 Lotus what happened the last 7 years lol
roll on the 2020 new platform./quote]
Turns out it wasn't though. Possibly the only original Swindon engined one to escape captivity was recently dyno'd at 385bhp and the automated manual gearbox was decidedly poo. So this 430bhp is a genuine step up, since the above car was designed 6 years ago. Also very few on here seem to be praising this as manual only. Imagine a new Porsche being manual only! Have our wealthy PH contributors all gone soft and forgotten how to change gear themselves?
It's 2017 Lotus what happened the last 7 years lol
roll on the 2020 new platform./quote]
Turns out it wasn't though. Possibly the only original Swindon engined one to escape captivity was recently dyno'd at 385bhp and the automated manual gearbox was decidedly poo. So this 430bhp is a genuine step up, since the above car was designed 6 years ago. Also very few on here seem to be praising this as manual only. Imagine a new Porsche being manual only! Have our wealthy PH contributors all gone soft and forgotten how to change gear themselves?
7795 said:
People do in the sense that they do not buy Lotus' like they do the other brands.
A company almost always has one thing to do above all others and that is make profits to keep shareholders happy. Lotus just has never hit it's stride and found out how to appeal to the mass market. This is unforgivable as far as i'm concerned and goes a long way to explaining why they will always be the nearly boys in the sports car game compared to the other runners.
You have to move with the times, adapt and give the customers you have, and more importantly still, the customers you want what they desire.
Look at Ferrari and a 4x4. Look at Porsche and the Cayenne and even a Diesel. Look at Bentley and the 4x4. Discounting the LM002, soon they'll be another Lamborghini SUV.
My above point is not about making SUV's, it's about listening to the market and in exceptional cases like BMW and the X5, seeing where it is going and changing to sell cars and make money. Lotus are a one trick pony and this is why they are continually changing hands and not evolving and more importantly, do not have happy shareholders with queues round the block ready to invest.
If Kodak (RIP) could build cars, they'd build a Lotus (with a rear view camera, that can take 36 photos before it needs developing!!).
Lotus, please change and adapt......
That has been true for much of the time since the early 90s. As the world's consumers demanded brand presence and bling Lotus disappeared into the dead world of 'add cheapness'. Their mantra for years was 'because we are cheap'. A company almost always has one thing to do above all others and that is make profits to keep shareholders happy. Lotus just has never hit it's stride and found out how to appeal to the mass market. This is unforgivable as far as i'm concerned and goes a long way to explaining why they will always be the nearly boys in the sports car game compared to the other runners.
You have to move with the times, adapt and give the customers you have, and more importantly still, the customers you want what they desire.
Look at Ferrari and a 4x4. Look at Porsche and the Cayenne and even a Diesel. Look at Bentley and the 4x4. Discounting the LM002, soon they'll be another Lamborghini SUV.
My above point is not about making SUV's, it's about listening to the market and in exceptional cases like BMW and the X5, seeing where it is going and changing to sell cars and make money. Lotus are a one trick pony and this is why they are continually changing hands and not evolving and more importantly, do not have happy shareholders with queues round the block ready to invest.
If Kodak (RIP) could build cars, they'd build a Lotus (with a rear view camera, that can take 36 photos before it needs developing!!).
Lotus, please change and adapt......
But Gales has taken a shelf of products that didn't fit the modern world and made them fit. And on top of that the car market has moved en mass towards Lotus as mainstream manufacturers focus on adding lightness and losing engine cylinders. The V6 no longer carries the stigma of old now that Ferrari make one again and Porsche is basically a 4 pot player now.
Gales has been so successful that he has been able to push the price point of a Lotus product over the £100k mark. That's a huge achievement and incredibly important. It genuinely changes the image of the brand that the managers of the 90s created that pretty much killed the company and made them a mockery in a society where bling was becoming king.
Sure, they need to redesign the interior so that the look and feel is up to date. At present it's still 90s hatchback with modern, on trend, materials glued on top as a stop gap. They also need to introduce a new body style for the flagship model but none of these changes are going to happen until Gales has finally put to bed the legacy of Mondeoesque brand image.
Lotus cars shouldn't be cheap. The people who went down that route should have been shot. Lotus should have ridden the whole of the new economy from the outset, leveraged their brand heritage and been a huge success. Instead they sat in the corner for twenty years focussing on being cheap and nasty. It's incredibly good to see that crappy era brought to an end and to see a man genuinely success in taking them back to where they should have been years ago.
bobo79 said:
The car was vapourware as the engine never worked. The ones that made it to the road had the standard 345BHP engines.
I don't think it looked better either - certainly not in your pic above - as that isn't even a 'proper' wide bodied GTE lol.
To be fair, that is an actual wide bodied GTE because I sent it straight through the chicane at Hethel and flat spotted all the tyres with one of the Proton board members in the passenger seat about 5 years ago because no-one told me the ABS didn't work!I don't think it looked better either - certainly not in your pic above - as that isn't even a 'proper' wide bodied GTE lol.
They looked lovely but were cack though, compromised suspension to fill the wide arches, loads of extra weight, horrid AMT gearbox and a propensity to pop engines spectacularly.
As for the new GT430, looks stunning and I'm sure it's amazing to drive, but it's too expensive for an Evora and I say that as a huge fan and a former owner of two. I was biding my time for the Sport 410's to come off to replace my M3 as a track car in a few years but will keep an eye on these. I doubt they'll drop due to the limited supply but I'll live in hope.
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