Public Transport vs Driving. Are they mad?

[Rick101]

Yes, funny how Crossrail has been ongoing forever and we're into Crossrai 2 and Crossrail 3 yet rarely the cost or how many nusres it would pay for is in the news.

We estimate that Crossrail 2 would cost around £30bn in 2014 prices

http://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/funding/

Of course it's needed because they are very short of public transport in London

[otolith]

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

[RobM77]

otolith said:

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

Of course the other consideration is that all public transport can do is to transport you and possibly a suitcase or a bike. A car can carry considerably more, in fact 2 or 3 times a week I'm carrying stuff that couldn't be taken on public transport, and around ten times a year I tow a 1400kg trailer. The key issue is exactly as you highlight, once you need to own a car for these sorts of journeys, you might as well use it for journeys where it's just you and a small bag. Mind you, even if you include depreciation, servicing, tyres and fuel, it's often far cheaper to drive than to take public transport, and that even applies if you book ahead and get cheaper train tickets.

[C70R]

rxe said:

Public transport works brilliantly in two cases:

- Living in or near a city where the density of public transport is such that it genuinely becomes the easier option

- If someone else is paying.

I remember a few months ago I was working in central London, and was invited to a dinner out in Shepherd's Bush. What a bloody PITA I thought, that'll take forever. Actually, it took about 20 minutes each way. I remember stumbling out of the restrauant at about 11:30, into the tube, and being home (near Liverpool St) before midnight. Pretty impressive for about 4 quid.

For city to city it is also brilliant, but expensive. I was commuting a lot to Newcastle and Manchester last year from London. 1st class, 290 quid with a corporate discount, but I could pretty much do a day's work on the train - 3 hours each way, power for the laptop, decent seat and table.

All of the people writing policy about public transport need to remember that the rest of the country don't live in London.

Agree with all of that.
The downside is that to provide the kind of infrastructure you're talking about for a decent proportion of the journeys that the UK takes would cost billions and take decades. We simply don't have that kind of cash in the coffers.

Conversely, it's not like other countries get it so spectacularly right either. I travel to Switzerland a fair bit, and going anywhere that isn't on one of the few major train lines is an absolute misery (taxis are expensive and poorly-covered) - and woe betide anyone wishing to get anywhere in a hurry on a Sunday.

[kiethton]

Rick101 said:

Yes, funny how Crossrail has been ongoing forever and we're into Crossrai 2 and Crossrail 3 yet rarely the cost or how many nusres it would pay for is in the news.

We estimate that Crossrail 2 would cost around £30bn in 2014 prices

http://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/funding/

Of course it's needed because they are very short of public transport in London

We are though, don't compare it on total number of services available look at the load factor and utilisation rates - a far more appropriate measure

[C70R]

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

Of course the other consideration is that all public transport can do is to transport you and possibly a suitcase or a bike. A car can carry considerably more, in fact 2 or 3 times a week I'm carrying stuff that couldn't be taken on public transport, and around ten times a year I tow a 1400kg trailer. The key issue is exactly as you highlight, once you need to own a car for these sorts of journeys, you might as well use it for journeys where it's just you and a small bag. Mind you, even if you include depreciation, servicing, tyres and fuel, it's often far cheaper to drive than to take public transport, and that even applies if you book ahead and get cheaper train tickets.

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic for the sake of saving (literally) a couple of quid? I can't see much comparison there.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 25th July 12:36

[C70R]

kiethton said:

Rick101 said:

Yes, funny how Crossrail has been ongoing forever and we're into Crossrai 2 and Crossrail 3 yet rarely the cost or how many nusres it would pay for is in the news.

We estimate that Crossrail 2 would cost around £30bn in 2014 prices

http://crossrail2.co.uk/discover/funding/

Of course it's needed because they are very short of public transport in London

We are though, don't compare it on total number of services available look at the load factor and utilisation rates - a far more appropriate measure

Indeed.
More people live in Greater London than in Scotland and Wales combined. That doesn't even take into account the 1m+ people who travel into London for work. It's the economic and employment centre of the UK, so of course we'd want to make travel as easy as possible.

Why in God's name would anyone sensible compare public transport in London to anywhere else in the UK? It's clearly an exceptional case.

[chrisb92]

C70R said:

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic? I can't see much comparison there.

I live in Hertfordshire never get the train to London anymore. It's too expensive. The only time I will is when I am going for a night out as a taxi home is approx £120.


If I want to go shopping on a Saturday or weekday evening after work I'll either drive to Oxford street and park just off of it or drive to Westfield. Both are much cheaper than me and my girlfriend getting the train.

The only time I'd start using the train to London would be if I got a job in the city as it just wouldn't be worthwhile driving.

[C70R]

chrisb92 said:

C70R said:

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic? I can't see much comparison there.

I live in Hertfordshire never get the train to London anymore. It's too expensive. The only time I will is when I am going for a night out as a taxi home is approx £120.


If I want to go shopping on a Saturday or weekday evening after work I'll either drive to Oxford street and park just off of it or drive to Westfield. Both are much cheaper than me and my girlfriend getting the train.

The only time I'd start using the train to London would be if I got a job in the city as it just wouldn't be worthwhile driving.

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

[Ares]

Totally dependant on the journey as to the time/cost benefit.


Local transport can be very expensive and take far far longer.

For me to get door to door from my house to my club in Manchester takes a minimum of an hour, longer if I avoid taxis at both ends.

The train, from station to station is just £5.50 (£7 return) for the 12 miles, but my house is 1.5 miles from the station so it's either a 30 minute walk, or a £5 cab ride. Ditto at the other end, a 15 minutes/0.75 mile walk or £5 cab ride. So it's an hour and £15.50, or hour and a half and £5.50. Each way. And it's Manchester so I'll probably get wet if I walk...and I'll probably not get a seat, so usually book first class which adds £4 to the cost.

Take the family in and out and it adds £20/25 to the cost, and definitely rules out walking, so its £20 in cab fares, £33 in 3x first class tickets.

Or I can drive. Quarter of a gallon of gas? £1.25? £5 to park for 2 hours. Journey takes c30mins.

No Brainer.



However, we're going to London to take part in Ride London. 220miles each way journey and it's costing £230 first class for three of us, return. The journey takes 1hr 45mins (plus the 1.5 miles to the station), then a £10 cab ride to our hotel on The Strand.

It would only just be cheaper to drive, just under £80 tank of gas, congestion charge, M6 Toll and £40x2 to park, but.... Driving would take c4 hours each way.

[matchmaker]

My son (in Stirling) bought a car in Middlesbrough (without viewing it ). Dad was tasked with collecting it. Booking in advance I got a single from Stirling to Middlesbrough for £25. As it was a Saturday I got an upgrade to 1st class between Edinburgh & Darlington.

Relaxing journey, complimentary coffee & biscuits served at my table.

I them had to drive back up the A1 at night in a stty 1.4 Corsa. Not fun.

(The car turned out to be a steaming pile of crap)

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Parking in Westfield is £8 or something for the day and there are ALWAYS spaces.
I drive to Westfield, park and catch the Central Line rather than walk the 15 minutes to my local station , paying the £80 odd quid for a return peak-time ticket.

It's 125 miles round trip. Last time it took me around 2 hrs from my door to Westfield in rush hour. My 1.0 Ecobeast managed 58mpg on this journey.
It did take a bit longer to drive but I'd rather it take an extra half an hour or so and I have my own space.

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

C70R said:

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Parking in Westfield is £8 or something for the day and there are ALWAYS spaces.
I drive to Westfield, park and catch the Central Line rather than walk the 15 minutes to my local station , paying the £80 odd quid for a return peak-time ticket.

It's 125 miles round trip. Last time it took me around 2 hrs from my door to Westfield in rush hour. My 1.0 Ecobeast managed 58mpg on this journey.
It did take a bit longer to drive but I'd rather it take an extra half an hour or so and I have my own space.

So it would have been quicker on the train, and cost less than £40/person if you'd booked in advance? (what's your local station?)

[chrisb92]

C70R said:

chrisb92 said:

C70R said:

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic? I can't see much comparison there.

I live in Hertfordshire never get the train to London anymore. It's too expensive. The only time I will is when I am going for a night out as a taxi home is approx £120.


If I want to go shopping on a Saturday or weekday evening after work I'll either drive to Oxford street and park just off of it or drive to Westfield. Both are much cheaper than me and my girlfriend getting the train.

The only time I'd start using the train to London would be if I got a job in the city as it just wouldn't be worthwhile driving.

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Train from Stevo is normally around £20 to get into central and times that by two for me and my girlfriend.

fuel there costs barely anything and parking is sometimes free, depends where you go or Westfield can be around a tenner? Westfield is a 45 minute drive from stevenage maybe an hour. Train there is similar, if not longer.

[C70R]

chrisb92 said:

C70R said:

chrisb92 said:

C70R said:

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic? I can't see much comparison there.

I live in Hertfordshire never get the train to London anymore. It's too expensive. The only time I will is when I am going for a night out as a taxi home is approx £120.


If I want to go shopping on a Saturday or weekday evening after work I'll either drive to Oxford street and park just off of it or drive to Westfield. Both are much cheaper than me and my girlfriend getting the train.

The only time I'd start using the train to London would be if I got a job in the city as it just wouldn't be worthwhile driving.

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Train from Stevo is normally around £20 to get into central and times that by two for me and my girlfriend.

fuel there costs barely anything and parking is sometimes free, depends where you go or Westfield can be around a tenner? Westfield is a 45 minute drive from stevenage maybe an hour. Train there is similar, if not longer.

National Rail says £11.30 Return for this Saturday. Am I doing something wrong?
Also, I'd kill to know where this free parking around Oxford Street on a Saturday is...

ETA - You can also buy a TwoTogether railcard which saves you a third off your journey and costs £30 for a year. You'd save ~£8 per trip, and it would pay for itself on your fourth trip.

[chrisb92]

C70R said:

National Rail says £11.30 Return for this Saturday. Am I doing something wrong?
Also, I'd kill to know where this free parking around Oxford Street on a Saturday is...

ETA - You can also buy a TwoTogether railcard which saves you a third off your journey and costs £30 for a year. You'd save ~£8 per trip, and it would pay for itself on your fourth trip.

My app says £17.20 Stevenage to Oxford Circus *2 = £34.40

My diesel A3 or her CLA 220 diesel would have to be driven quite horrifically to achieve fuel costs to match that!! I don't even think it would be possible to spend £15 on fuel in our cars. IF it was £15 that would leave £19.40 to spend on parking.

I park behind Selfridges. Sometimes you have to pay by phone, but I normally arrive mid afternoon and I think you only pay for a couple of hours. Doesn't cost much. Less than a tenner. More often than not it's free/ a couple of quid when I go.

If we go West London it's free parking after 1.30.

It's also a 10-15 minute walk to the station.

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

xjay1337 said:

C70R said:

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Parking in Westfield is £8 or something for the day and there are ALWAYS spaces.
I drive to Westfield, park and catch the Central Line rather than walk the 15 minutes to my local station , paying the £80 odd quid for a return peak-time ticket.

It's 125 miles round trip. Last time it took me around 2 hrs from my door to Westfield in rush hour. My 1.0 Ecobeast managed 58mpg on this journey.
It did take a bit longer to drive but I'd rather it take an extra half an hour or so and I have my own space.

So it would have been quicker on the train, and cost less than £40/person if you'd booked in advance? (what's your local station?)

Ummmm

In my job role it's not always a case of planning journeys weeks in advance.
And anyway, have you ever had to catch a peak time train into Paddington? It's absolute hell.

My car has a fixed running cost (£187 per month) - that I'm paying for anyway
My insurance is already paid for out right and I have it anyway, so I may as well use it .
The only consumable cost is fuel and tyres.

I'm pretty sure it cost me around £15 in fuel, £8 parking. Let's add on a fiver for tyre wear.
I don't think you comprehend that I'd rather have a 2 hour journey in the comfort and space of my own car rather than 15 minutes of walking to the train station, at least a 1 hour 10 train ride (possibly needing to change), probably not getting a seat, combined with dealing with hordes of sweaty, self-righteous commuters and possible delays.

30 extra minutes per way is worth it in that regard.

Last time I went to London via train was when I left my motorcycle helmet in a cafe.
I had to leave home at 6:30 am to get to the office for 9. At the time I rode in and I left home at 7:45 and was in by 9:15.

[C70R]

chrisb92 said:

C70R said:

National Rail says £11.30 Return for this Saturday. Am I doing something wrong?
Also, I'd kill to know where this free parking around Oxford Street on a Saturday is...

ETA - You can also buy a TwoTogether railcard which saves you a third off your journey and costs £30 for a year. You'd save ~£8 per trip, and it would pay for itself on your fourth trip.

My app says £17.20 Stevenage to Oxford Circus *2 = £34.40

My diesel A3 or her CLA 220 diesel would have to be driven quite horrifically to achieve fuel costs to match that!! I don't even think it would be possible to spend £15 on fuel in our cars. IF it was £15 that would leave £19.40 to spend on parking.

I park behind Selfridges. Sometimes you have to pay by phone, but I normally arrive mid afternoon and I think you only pay for a couple of hours. Doesn't cost much. Less than a tenner. More often than not it's free/ a couple of quid when I go.

If we go West London it's free parking after 1.30.

It's also a 10-15 minute walk to the station.

Sorry - you're right. I wasn't taking into account the travelcard. Although, if you wanted to commit to public transport, a 30min free Boris Bike journey would get you from KingsX to Oxford Circus without too much hassle (or a quid on a bus each way).

Parking behind Selfridges definitely isn't free on a Saturday afternoon! Haha.

[chrisb92]

C70R said:

Sorry - you're right. I wasn't taking into account the travelcard. Although, if you wanted to commit to public transport, a 30min free Boris Bike journey would get you from KingsX to Oxford Circus without too much hassle (or a quid on a bus each way).

Parking behind Selfridges definitely isn't free on a Saturday afternoon! Haha.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Selfridges,+400+Oxford+St,+London+W1A+1AB/@51.5168017,-0.1536015,18.5z/data=!3m1!5s0x48760532aa5cc29f:0xa120561ab8820105!4m5!3m4!1s0x4876052d5351ae79:0xd5c873c72bc464a3!8m2!3d51.5145795!4d-0.1530982

Not sure how good that link is, but I park down Manshester St or one of those other side roads. It's about a 2 minute walk down the road to Selfridges/Oxford street!!

I never pay more than a few quid haha! Free after six I believe as well, so I just aim to get there around then so that it's free for the whole evening. Haven't parked there in months. Brent Cross is normally good enough and has free parking.

[RobM77]

C70R said:

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

Of course the other consideration is that all public transport can do is to transport you and possibly a suitcase or a bike. A car can carry considerably more, in fact 2 or 3 times a week I'm carrying stuff that couldn't be taken on public transport, and around ten times a year I tow a 1400kg trailer. The key issue is exactly as you highlight, once you need to own a car for these sorts of journeys, you might as well use it for journeys where it's just you and a small bag. Mind you, even if you include depreciation, servicing, tyres and fuel, it's often far cheaper to drive than to take public transport, and that even applies if you book ahead and get cheaper train tickets.

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic for the sake of saving (literally) a couple of quid? I can't see much comparison there.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 25th July 12:36

I'm guessing that it doesn't scale well to long distances. Certainly for my commuting calculations on this thread, my car was quite a lot cheaper, even including depreciation, tyres and servicing as well as fuel.