Public Transport vs Driving. Are they mad?

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

C70R said:

xjay1337 said:

C70R said:

Really? NationalRail.co.uk is showing a return from Stevenage to London as £11 and ~25min. I can't imagine how that would be cheaper than paying for parking in Central London, and there's no way you're driving that quicker on a Saturday...

It's OK to say you'd prefer to drive, but to suggest it's cheaper or quicker in that scenario is a bit mental.

Parking in Westfield is £8 or something for the day and there are ALWAYS spaces.
I drive to Westfield, park and catch the Central Line rather than walk the 15 minutes to my local station , paying the £80 odd quid for a return peak-time ticket.

It's 125 miles round trip. Last time it took me around 2 hrs from my door to Westfield in rush hour. My 1.0 Ecobeast managed 58mpg on this journey.
It did take a bit longer to drive but I'd rather it take an extra half an hour or so and I have my own space.

So it would have been quicker on the train, and cost less than £40/person if you'd booked in advance? (what's your local station?)

Ummmm

In my job role it's not always a case of planning journeys weeks in advance.
And anyway, have you ever had to catch a peak time train into Paddington? It's absolute hell.

My car has a fixed running cost (£187 per month) - that I'm paying for anyway
My insurance is already paid for out right and I have it anyway, so I may as well use it .
The only consumable cost is fuel and tyres.

I'm pretty sure it cost me around £15 in fuel, £8 parking. Let's add on a fiver for tyre wear.
I don't think you comprehend that I'd rather have a 2 hour journey in the comfort and space of my own car rather than 15 minutes of walking to the train station, at least a 1 hour 10 train ride (possibly needing to change), probably not getting a seat, combined with dealing with hordes of sweaty, self-righteous commuters and possible delays.

30 extra minutes per way is worth it in that regard.

Last time I went to London via train was when I left my motorcycle helmet in a cafe.
I had to leave home at 6:30 am to get to the office for 9. At the time I rode in and I left home at 7:45 and was in by 9:15.

It's perfectly fair to say that you'd prefer to be in a car - I "comprehend" that just fine.

It's not perfectly fair to say that public transport isn't viable - it is, and it's a more efficient option in your case. Plus, for argument's sake, I wouldn't run the risk of being stuck in traffic on the Hammersmith flyover if I was on a train.

What was your local station, again? Just keen to see exactly how big a cost differential we're talking about here.

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

It's perfectly fair to say that you'd prefer to be in a car - I "comprehend" that just fine.

It's not perfectly fair to say that public transport isn't viable - it is, and it's a more efficient option in your case. Plus, for argument's sake, I wouldn't run the risk of being stuck in traffic on the Hammersmith flyover if I was on a train.

What was your local station, again? Just keen to see exactly how big a cost differential we're talking about here.

I said in a previous post that I can see the point in some cases, and personally in London if I need to hop about then the tube makes sense over a car.
But the cost is too much in many cases.

According to GWR / Trainline it's around 63.50 with Travelcard from my local station but I paid something like £78.50 the last time I had to go in (I just bought on the morning at the station directly).

[C70R]

RobM77 said:

C70R said:

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

Of course the other consideration is that all public transport can do is to transport you and possibly a suitcase or a bike. A car can carry considerably more, in fact 2 or 3 times a week I'm carrying stuff that couldn't be taken on public transport, and around ten times a year I tow a 1400kg trailer. The key issue is exactly as you highlight, once you need to own a car for these sorts of journeys, you might as well use it for journeys where it's just you and a small bag. Mind you, even if you include depreciation, servicing, tyres and fuel, it's often far cheaper to drive than to take public transport, and that even applies if you book ahead and get cheaper train tickets.

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic for the sake of saving (literally) a couple of quid? I can't see much comparison there.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 25th July 12:36

I'm guessing that it doesn't scale well to long distances. Certainly for my commuting calculations on this thread, my car was quite a lot cheaper, even including depreciation, tyres and servicing as well as fuel.

If anything, it scales even better over long distances. It would take me 3hrs each way and cost £110 to do a return journey to Newcastle at the same time. That's a 5.5hr drive without traffic (so easily twice as long as the train with traffic), and a ~600 mile round trip (~£80-90 in petrol in my car).

[C70R]

Just to be clear here, I often actively choose to take my own car on long drives, from the perspective of practicality (I can leave when I like and remain flexible) and because I am quite happy to take the hit on time. So I totally understand why someone might have a preference to drive, rather than take public transport.

It just irks me that people will go to such ridiculous levels to try and 'prove' how terrible/expensive public transport is, when the reality is that it isn't so cut-and-dried.

[foxbody-87]

MitchT said:

How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?

Part of it may be because their ticket prices are subsidised by the profits they make on their UK ventures.

Deutsche Bahn run DB Cargo, Chiltern, Cross Country, Grand Central, London Overground, Northern, Tyne & Wear Metro, and Wales & Borders.

Abellio (Nederlandse Spoorwegen) run Greater Anglia, Scotrail, and have a 50% stake in Merseyrail.

France's Keolis have a 35% stake in Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, and South Eastern

Italian state railway Trenitalia runs Essex Thameside.

I avoid the train where possible. Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me.

Sometimes the train can be handy if your destination is within walking distance of the station but the prices are eye-watering. I feel as if the whole "shop around" thing is a massive cop-out. It's a train ticket not car insurance, the best deal should present itself to me not the other way round. I don't want to have to book 6 years in advance, turn up at 10.45 for a 9.00 meeting, or split my journey into 400 tickets thanks. The whole thing is a bullst ploy to squeeze more cash out of people and then shrug off complaints with "shop around".

[RobM77]

C70R said:

RobM77 said:

C70R said:

RobM77 said:

otolith said:

Gary C said:

But it's a fair comparison for most of us.

It's not a fair comparison, but it's a valid one. Often, once you have the car, it's going to be cheaper to drive, especially with multiple passengers. It's a basic problem with public transport that often it only works if you can make it good enough that people no longer need their own cars. And outside big cities, it often doesn't make any sense to do that. Private transport is the best solution for a lot of people living in less densely populated areas.

Of course the other consideration is that all public transport can do is to transport you and possibly a suitcase or a bike. A car can carry considerably more, in fact 2 or 3 times a week I'm carrying stuff that couldn't be taken on public transport, and around ten times a year I tow a 1400kg trailer. The key issue is exactly as you highlight, once you need to own a car for these sorts of journeys, you might as well use it for journeys where it's just you and a small bag. Mind you, even if you include depreciation, servicing, tyres and fuel, it's often far cheaper to drive than to take public transport, and that even applies if you book ahead and get cheaper train tickets.

Really?

Let's say I wanted to take myself and a small bag from London to Portsmouth (just an example) in a few weeks' time at rush hour on a Friday, returning on a Sunday evening. To do it on the train would cost me £40 (advance tickets) and take about 1hr45min in each direction.
The drive is a 160 mile round trip and takes two hours without traffic. That could easily be 3+hrs at rush hour. While it would cost marginally less in petrol (remember, this isn't a steady run - we're talking rush hour traffic), I'm almost certain the distinction wouldn't be so great when all costs were factored in.

What would I rather do? Spend 1hr45min working/drinking a beer/reading, or spend 3hrs in traffic for the sake of saving (literally) a couple of quid? I can't see much comparison there.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 25th July 12:36

I'm guessing that it doesn't scale well to long distances. Certainly for my commuting calculations on this thread, my car was quite a lot cheaper, even including depreciation, tyres and servicing as well as fuel.

If anything, it scales even better over long distances. It would take me 3hrs each way and cost £110 to do a return journey to Newcastle at the same time. That's a 5.5hr drive without traffic (so easily twice as long as the train with traffic), and a ~600 mile round trip (~£80-90 in petrol in my car).

That's what I meant I meant that the negative effect whereby a car is cheaper doesn't scale up. As I posted much earlier in the thread, my 90 minute commute costs me £6.43 including depreciation, tyres, servicing and fuel. The train journey costs £16.90.

[C70R]

foxbody-87 said:

MitchT said:

How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?

Part of it may be because their ticket prices are subsidised by the profits they make on their UK ventures.

Deutsche Bahn run DB Cargo, Chiltern, Cross Country, Grand Central, London Overground, Northern, Tyne & Wear Metro, and Wales & Borders.

Abellio (Nederlandse Spoorwegen) run Greater Anglia, Scotrail, and have a 50% stake in Merseyrail.

France's Keolis have a 35% stake in Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, and South Eastern

Italian state railway Trenitalia runs Essex Thameside.

I avoid the train where possible. Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me.

Sometimes the train can be handy if your destination is within walking distance of the station but the prices are eye-watering. I feel as if the whole "shop around" thing is a massive cop-out. It's a train ticket not car insurance, the best deal should present itself to me not the other way round. I don't want to have to book 6 years in advance, turn up at 10.45 for a 9.00 meeting, or split my journey into 400 tickets thanks. The whole thing is a bullst ploy to squeeze more cash out of people and then shrug off complaints with "shop around".

I can only presume you've never been stuck in traffic?

[foxbody-87]

C70R said:

foxbody-87 said:

MitchT said:

How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?

Part of it may be because their ticket prices are subsidised by the profits they make on their UK ventures.

Deutsche Bahn run DB Cargo, Chiltern, Cross Country, Grand Central, London Overground, Northern, Tyne & Wear Metro, and Wales & Borders.

Abellio (Nederlandse Spoorwegen) run Greater Anglia, Scotrail, and have a 50% stake in Merseyrail.

France's Keolis have a 35% stake in Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, and South Eastern

Italian state railway Trenitalia runs Essex Thameside.

I avoid the train where possible. Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me.

Sometimes the train can be handy if your destination is within walking distance of the station but the prices are eye-watering. I feel as if the whole "shop around" thing is a massive cop-out. It's a train ticket not car insurance, the best deal should present itself to me not the other way round. I don't want to have to book 6 years in advance, turn up at 10.45 for a 9.00 meeting, or split my journey into 400 tickets thanks. The whole thing is a bullst ploy to squeeze more cash out of people and then shrug off complaints with "shop around".

I can only presume you've never been stuck in traffic?

"Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me."

[AH33]

foxbody-87 said:

"Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me."

This needs to be tattooed onto the forehead of every politician even remotely involved with setting transport policy

[williamp]

There is another option: buy your own train. Here is one for £25k - about the going rate for a commuting car.

http://www.wnxx.com/forsale/index.htm

You could drive it yourself, and even make some cash on the side by seling seat space. Obvious, eh??

[poing]

C70R said:

Just to be clear here, I often actively choose to take my own car on long drives, from the perspective of practicality (I can leave when I like and remain flexible) and because I am quite happy to take the hit on time. So I totally understand why someone might have a preference to drive, rather than take public transport.

It just irks me that people will go to such ridiculous levels to try and 'prove' how terrible/expensive public transport is, when the reality is that it isn't so cut-and-dried.

Sadly this is where a lot of your otherwise good points fall down. You still own and pay for a car, hence you are paying for both regardless.

I agree with you that public transport has a very important place and the psychology of it is the same as people paying for fuel, they see that cost instantly which sticks in their head, which is why so many misguided souls buy a new car to save money.

I don't think our little island will ever have a perfect solution because it's not possible. Actually, I do think it will but not in our lifetime. Driverless cars are going to change the infrastructure once they are fully established because they will essentially become personal taxis that we pay monthly rentals for.

[HannsG]

Birmingham new street is chaos between 5pm and 6pm. Over crowding is off the scale

Its gotten worse over the past few years. They need to seriously do something about it as it's bloody inhumane at times.

I absolutely abhor the train. I actually prefer the tube to bank from Euston when in London compared to new street.

It's that bad.

[HannsG]

Podie said:

It's the cost of parking at the railway station that makes me balk.

And this.

[C70R]

poing said:

C70R said:

Just to be clear here, I often actively choose to take my own car on long drives, from the perspective of practicality (I can leave when I like and remain flexible) and because I am quite happy to take the hit on time. So I totally understand why someone might have a preference to drive, rather than take public transport.

It just irks me that people will go to such ridiculous levels to try and 'prove' how terrible/expensive public transport is, when the reality is that it isn't so cut-and-dried.

Sadly this is where a lot of your otherwise good points fall down. You still own and pay for a car, hence you are paying for both regardless.

I agree with you that public transport has a very important place and the psychology of it is the same as people paying for fuel, they see that cost instantly which sticks in their head, which is why so many misguided souls buy a new car to save money.

I don't think our little island will ever have a perfect solution because it's not possible. Actually, I do think it will but not in our lifetime. Driverless cars are going to change the infrastructure once they are fully established because they will essentially become personal taxis that we pay monthly rentals for.

Why does owning a car invalidate the point that the train is better in certain circumstances (as I've demonstrated a few examples of in this thread)?
Unless you're some kind of nutjob who believes the the Government are trying to ban the use of private cars, you can surely see that there are situations where different modes might be appropriate?

I just don't understand why the PH narrative on this subject always ends up being "I never take the train, it's too expensive and never gets me where I want to go, so I won't try and explore ways to make it work.".

I've demonstrated that there are scenarios where the train would be cheaper and/or faster than driving. Why can't we just settle on "The train works sometimes, but the car suits me better in the majority of instances"?
This alone would be a massive step forward.

[C70R]

foxbody-87 said:

C70R said:

foxbody-87 said:

MitchT said:

How come the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians (in my experience) can provide trains which are capacious, clean and punctual at prices that don't make your wallet sting then?

Part of it may be because their ticket prices are subsidised by the profits they make on their UK ventures.

Deutsche Bahn run DB Cargo, Chiltern, Cross Country, Grand Central, London Overground, Northern, Tyne & Wear Metro, and Wales & Borders.

Abellio (Nederlandse Spoorwegen) run Greater Anglia, Scotrail, and have a 50% stake in Merseyrail.

France's Keolis have a 35% stake in Gatwick Express, London Midland, Southern, and South Eastern

Italian state railway Trenitalia runs Essex Thameside.

I avoid the train where possible. Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me.

Sometimes the train can be handy if your destination is within walking distance of the station but the prices are eye-watering. I feel as if the whole "shop around" thing is a massive cop-out. It's a train ticket not car insurance, the best deal should present itself to me not the other way round. I don't want to have to book 6 years in advance, turn up at 10.45 for a 9.00 meeting, or split my journey into 400 tickets thanks. The whole thing is a bullst ploy to squeeze more cash out of people and then shrug off complaints with "shop around".

I can only presume you've never been stuck in traffic?

"Granted, I might get stuck in traffic if I drive, but with the advantage of being guaranteed a seat, nobody else's stinking feet/crappy music, B.O. or garlic sausage sandwiches to bother me."

I catch an inner-London commuter train daily (as well as the tube), and can't say that any of those things has been an issue. I even stand out of chocie occasionally (shock, horror).