No ICE from 2040?!?

[Ares]

ash73 said:

Ares said:

ash73 said:

Ares said:

ash73 said:

The cheapest Tesla is currently £65K, the Chevrolet Bolt isn't available in the UK, are there any other electric cars you can actually buy with a range of more than 125 miles?

Yes. A lot.

Care to list them?

Sure.


I3
BYD e6
Chevvy Bolt
Ioniq
JAC J3
Kia Soul EV that Clarkson drove
KyBurz eRod
Lightening GT
Merc B-CLass
MW Luka
Leaf NEDC
Renault Zoe
Rimac Concept One
Rimac Concept S
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Venturi Fetish
VW e-golf

Why pad out the list with cars not available to buy in the uk, and several cars with a range <125 miles? I didn't ask for a list of all electric cars. I asked about cars cheaper than a Tesla and the Venturi is £370k

1) You didn't ask for cheaper.
2) I just copied the list from the article in the Sunday Times.
3) I article was 120miles, so nit pick if you want over 5 miles, but there is, as I said, a lot.

[Evanivitch]

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

If we can't update the wires already running between street lights and add 7kW charge ports with a GSM module in 23 years then I've lost all faith in British innovation.

[Gary C]

Donbot said:

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Broadband internet must cost a fair bit to create the infrastructure, but that is pretty much everywhere now.

If it makes financial sense and the demand is there it will be built.

Hardly comparable and infact broadband mainly uses UTP from the original analogue system for transmission to the house and fibre to the cabinet was easier to run as the ducts actually could actually carry higher capacity for the same space.

High power cables to charging stations would not be the same.

[kambites]

Gary C said:

Hardly comparable and infact broadband mainly uses UTP from the original analogue system for transmission to the house and fibre to the cabinet was easier to run as the ducts actually could actually carry higher capacity for the same space.

High power cables to charging stations would not be the same.

Our current broadband solution (fibre to cabinet) is a good example of our inability to do infrastructure properly; it's an appalling bodge - the electronic equilavent of road surface dressing. The analagous thing for charging electric cars would probably be to just install a 13 amp socket on each lamp post then charge people five times the normal electricity rate to use it.

Edited by kambites on Monday 31st July 21:16

[Evanivitch]

kambites said:

Gary C said:

Hardly comparable and infact broadband mainly uses UTP from the original analogue system for transmission to the house and fibre to the cabinet was easier to run as the ducts actually could actually carry higher capacity for the same space.

High power cables to charging stations would not be the same.

Our current broadband solution (fibre to cabinet) is a good example of our inability to do infrastructure properly; it's an appalling bodge - the electronic equilavent of road surface dressing. The analagous thing for charging electric cars would probably be to just install a 13 amp socket on each lamp post then charge people five times the normal electricity rate to use it.

Edited by kambites on Monday 31st July 21:16

What about the cable paths used for street lighting?

[kambites]

Evanivitch said:

What about the cable paths used for street lighting?

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying we wont do it.

[MrOrange]

Gary C said:

Donbot said:

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Broadband internet must cost a fair bit to create the infrastructure, but that is pretty much everywhere now.

If it makes financial sense and the demand is there it will be built.

Hardly comparable and infact broadband mainly uses UTP from the original analogue system for transmission to the house and fibre to the cabinet was easier to run as the ducts actually could actually carry higher capacity for the same space.

High power cables to charging stations would not be the same.

Most “charging stations” are just 240v outlets, the actual charger is housed in the car.

So, electric cars need regular domestic voltage that is freely available in every house, hotel, car park, and workplace in the UK. And (on average) need just a few kWh per day to stay 100% charged - that maybe a case of trickle drawing 300w for the time your car sits unused - not really very onerous at all. And cheap, a quid a day for 20-30 miles.

It’s gotta be one of the simplest infrastructure challenges facing society in the next decade.

Besides, every new build will likely have a chargepoint http://charged.io/every-new-home-europe-ev-charge-...

[04helipilot]

MrOrange said:

Gary C said:

Donbot said:

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Broadband internet must cost a fair bit to create the infrastructure, but that is pretty much everywhere now.

If it makes financial sense and the demand is there it will be built.

Hardly comparable and infact broadband mainly uses UTP from the original analogue system for transmission to the house and fibre to the cabinet was easier to run as the ducts actually could actually carry higher capacity for the same space.

High power cables to charging stations would not be the same.

Most “charging stations” are just 240v outlets, the actual charger is housed in the car.

So, electric cars need regular domestic voltage that is freely available in every house, hotel, car park, and workplace in the UK. And (on average) need just a few kWh per day to stay 100% charged - that maybe a case of trickle drawing 300w for the time your car sits unused - not really very onerous at all. And cheap, a quid a day for 20-30 miles.

It’s gotta be one of the simplest infrastructure challenges facing society in the next decade.

Besides, every new build will likely have a chargepoint http://charged.io/every-new-home-europe-ev-charge-...

There is an ample supply of lamp posts on our streets that could have charge meter equipment run from ?

[Ares]

ash73 said:

Ares said:

ash73 said:

Ares said:

ash73 said:

Ares said:

ash73 said:

The cheapest Tesla is currently £65K, the Chevrolet Bolt isn't available in the UK, are there any other electric cars you can actually buy with a range of more than 125 miles?

Yes. A lot.

Care to list them?

Sure.


I3
BYD e6
Chevvy Bolt
Ioniq
JAC J3
Kia Soul EV that Clarkson drove
KyBurz eRod
Lightening GT
Merc B-CLass
MW Luka
Leaf NEDC
Renault Zoe
Rimac Concept One
Rimac Concept S
Tesla Model S
Tesla Model X
Venturi Fetish
VW e-golf

Why pad out the list with cars not available to buy in the uk, and several cars with a range <125 miles? I didn't ask for a list of all electric cars. I asked about cars cheaper than a Tesla and the Venturi is £370k

1) You didn't ask for cheaper.
2) I just copied the list from the article in the Sunday Times.
3) I article was 120miles, so nit pick if you want over 5 miles, but there is, as I said, a lot.

You didn't even check your own list, so I have to waste time checking them, and it confirms what I thought. The few valid cars on the list are all at least £10k more than an equivalent petrol car. It might be different in 5 years but right now they are just expensive toys.

I didn't need to check, I'm not submitting a legal defence, life is too short. You don't have to spend time checking them. Even if half of them are not available or suitable as dictated by your evolving criteria, that is still a lot of cars. These are all cars the ST listed as being available and beating the range-fear by having the ability to beat 120miles.

And you keep adding criteria? Where does the issue of the £10k come in? I just said there were lots of EV cars that can do more than 125miles. There are. Period. (Turns out the odd one is between 120 and 125, split hairs if you want.

And the expense is just shifted. For me to get a £90k TeslaS would have been very similar financially during ownership to running my 640d, and probably cheaper than running my Alfa QV.

[J4CKO]

Donbot said:

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Broadband internet must cost a fair bit to create the infrastructure, but that is pretty much everywhere now.

If it makes financial sense and the demand is there it will be built.

This

Businesses will have to put charging point in, to ensure custom from EV owners, at the moment it is very much a "look at us and our green credentials" but it will shift to having to have them.

Cars spend most of their life sat still, adequate opportunity to charge if the charging points are there.

It will happen, it isn't that expensive in the scheme of things and if folk know they can charge the car whilst frequenting a certain place, that's where they will go.

Petrol stations will close in their droves, lots already have, so getting fuel for an IC car could be a chore in years to come, that will make the decision to switch to an EV easier for a lot of folk, sounds a long way off, maybe but that will come, planning routes with the still open fuel stations, carrying a can of fuel, sounds mad but I see it going that way, range anxiety shifts to IC cars.

Range will improve, charging opportunities will cease to be an issue.

I think in the next few years, there are massive business opportunities for those who anticipate where this goes, get thinking and investing!

[Ultrafunkula]

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Well the owner could foot the bill for their home charging point if it was packaged with a new EV to minimise the financial impact. Over time, more and more houses would have them installed, as the houses changed hands the new owners may see the viability of running an EV, forming a solid second hand market for the vehicles. Given a time frame of 23 years, I think it would happen.

[kambites]

On private property, I agree, but it's not going to work for public street parking.

[Ultrafunkula]

I agree, but assuming the majority of households with road parking are in citys or suburbs where it may be easier to reach public charging points, I wonder how much of a problem that would be. If it was a big problem I guess they would go hybrid or continue to run an old ICE vehicle.

[Toltec]

Ultrafunkula said:

kambites said:

We're not going to have them at the side of every residential street in the next 23 years, though, I doubt. It would cost billions.

Well the owner could foot the bill for their home charging point if it was packaged with a new EV to minimise the financial impact. Over time, more and more houses would have them installed, as the houses changed hands the new owners may see the viability of running an EV, forming a solid second hand market for the vehicles. Given a time frame of 23 years, I think it would happen.

Houses may need charging points as most have more than one car now and you probably won't want to get up in the middle of the night to swap the connection over. I could see that you might have a smart charging point with multiple connectors that would manage supply across several vehicles though. A domestic supply with a bit of intelligence could drive a couple of 7kW charge points too. Maybe you could have a public charge point outside your house and make some money selling electricity to other people, it would certainly be a way of using existing cabling infrastructure. I don't know if the domestic supply infrastructure is designed for uncontended load though, if every house on a road is pulling 20kW+ would the cabling cope?

[Ares]

kambites said:

On private property, I agree, but it's not going to work for public street parking.

It already exists for public street parking?

[C2996]

Who's to say electric cars are the future anyway, especially with all the negative issues like lack of range, need for recharging, lifespan and cost of the battery as well as the unenviromentally friendly way batteries are made. Not to mention the power needed to charge 50 million cars a day.

Has the government said all electric by 2040 or just no diesel and petrol?

Why's nobody talking about hydrogen cells or other forms of power

[Ares]

C2996 said:

Who's to say electric cars are the future anyway, especially with all the negative issues like lack of range, need for recharging, lifespan and cost of the battery as well as the unenviromentally friendly way batteries are made. Not to mention the power needed to charge 50 million cars a day.

Has the government said all electric by 2040 or just no diesel and petrol?

Why's nobody talking about hydrogen cells or other forms of power

Take away the range and recharge issues, see the cost of batteries plummet and EVs look like the most viable alternative.

Hydrogen is expensive and virtually already ruled out. What else do you think could rival 'leccy?

[J4CKO]

Ares said:

C2996 said:

Who's to say electric cars are the future anyway, especially with all the negative issues like lack of range, need for recharging, lifespan and cost of the battery as well as the unenviromentally friendly way batteries are made. Not to mention the power needed to charge 50 million cars a day.

Has the government said all electric by 2040 or just no diesel and petrol?

Why's nobody talking about hydrogen cells or other forms of power

Take away the range and recharge issues, see the cost of batteries plummet and EVs look like the most viable alternative.

Hydrogen is expensive and virtually already ruled out. What else do you think could rival 'leccy?

There is, for me a sense of inevitability about it, I love IC engines but they are an over complex bodge used until such time as an electric car could carry enough capacity, that has happened and the shift has started in earnest, I think the Tesla model 3 will see a lot more EVs on the road and it come onto more people's radar.

Also, amazed how many get all eco about Lithium and battery production, but probably drive a diesel.

[Toltec]

J4CKO said:

There is, for me a sense of inevitability about it, I love IC engines but they are an over complex bodge used until such time as an electric car could carry enough capacity, that has happened and the shift has started in earnest, I think the Tesla model 3 will see a lot more EVs on the road and it come onto more people's radar.

Also, amazed how many get all eco about Lithium and battery production, but probably drive a diesel.

They have a simplicity and efficiency that is difficult to ignore if you have any kind of engineering interest in your mental make up. You have a powerplant capable of producing a large output when required and yet using 'fuel' very efficiently at a steady speed. I have yet to drive one so I don't know how engaging the flat torque, then flat power output will feel, I suspect the 'throttle' response could be far superior to almost any ICE though. I can imagine a system that uses the brake and accelerator pedal to let you alter the front to rear power or braking balance of the car. Lift off the accelerator for balanced regen braking, press the brake to get more braking and front biased up to max regen then mechanical braking applied, pressing the accelerator with sub mechanical brake applied will release the regen braking and begin to apply rear biased power. Lots of brake pedal will always give you hard braking so pressing both by accident will not see the motor fighting the brakes.

[Evanivitch]

C2996 said:

Why's nobody talking about hydrogen cells or other forms of power

Hydrogen is just a form of energy. Either from CO2 intensive sources or energy intensive sources. It doesn't exist in an easy form.

Then it has to be stored and distributed. We don't have that infrastructure in place. It is not the equivalent of petrol infrastructure.

Currently there are huge maintenance demands for hydrogen cars. Toyota Mirai service is every 5000 miles and they need specially prepared workshops to handle hydrogen. All issues that can be overcome, but with a range of 312 miles and limited infrastructure, where's the benefit? (I can count 14 Hydrogen stations on Zap maps in the whole of England Wales and Scotland).

Edited by Evanivitch on Tuesday 1st August 20:27