Speed awareness course....interesting but.....
Discussion
Gnits said:
Also worth considering that at certain points in a journey there are elements for which a few seconds will be multiplied.
If I get to traffic lights on green I go straight through, 5 seconds later and I will be waiting for a good few minutes, there are no circumstances where reaching such an obstacle 'late' gains any speed/time/money.
But you don't always hit green lights you'll also hit red lights where you've used extra consumables (fuel, brakes, tyres) for no gain over the driver who didn't accelerate as hard, didn't hit as high a top speeds & never stopped because they arrived at the lights as they became green for you where you were sitting waiting for them to catch up.If I get to traffic lights on green I go straight through, 5 seconds later and I will be waiting for a good few minutes, there are no circumstances where reaching such an obstacle 'late' gains any speed/time/money.
On our roads you are invariably just racing to the next stop for yourself ahead. A stop that the driver who is averaging it out (without your higher speeds (more risk) & lower speeds (more frustration)) will make up the ground you gained. I lost count of the amount of times an E350 Merc passed me in lane 3 on the M6/M1 yesterday only for me to make all the ground he'd gained back at the next hold up. Each time the perceived gains he'd made by going faster dissipated & all that he'd gained was more risk (from concentrating on speed over space), compromised his fuel economy, used more consumables than was necessary & been more stressed from his frustration for zero time benefit towards the end destination.
It is possible to make time over others but it generally takes a concerted effort at larger differentials, then of course you are just raising the stakes of getting caught & the size of penalty (plus other larger risks, use of consumables etc). But if speed is the stand out priority for you you'll happily sacrifice those other things.
The presenter at the OP's class was however deluded that some people don't speed for any other reason than fun.
He'd have been just as deluded pretending some people don't torture animals or bully kids for fun.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 29th July 13:31
King Herald said:
One interesting snippet he demonstrated was that if you were ten minutes late, for example, and wanted to make it up by doing 80 instead of 70mph on the motorway, you'd have to drive 100 miles without dropping your speed to catch up that ten minutes.
Perhaps but I used to drive back to Uni on a Sunday night at 130mph on the motorway which saved around 25mins - however time saving wasn't really the point, at 70 I'd was falling asleep.Where I save huge amounts of time is commuting - I can easily save 25% of the time it takes my wife to do the same journey saving 40 mins every day
V8RX7 said:
....Where I save huge amounts of time is commuting - I can easily save 25% of the time it takes my wife to do the same journey saving 40 mins every day
But as per my post at 11:10 on page 4, the faster you go to save time, the more hours you need to work to pay for the extra fuel used.If your job is well-paid it could be worthwhile but if you're on an average UK wage (or less) the time saved will be lost due to the amount of extra time you will need to work to pay for the extra fuel used at higher speeds.
Some interesting points raised on this thread, before it descended into PHism in the recent stages.
I found the Speed Awareness course I was "offered" actually fairly interesting, and it was good to refresh some points of the Highway Code I hadn't even thought about since I passed my test thirty years before.
It was interesting how many others on my course were utterly clueless... no idea that single carriageway roads have different speed limits to dual, that commercial vehicles have different limits (this included "professional" commercial vehicle drivers!), that you can tell urban limits by the presence of street lights, etc. I felt the net ability of the drivers locally was increased after the course.
The thing about having to travel massive distances above the limit to drop your arrival time is true, as anyone who's tried the "beat the satnav projected arrival time" game will know. Doing 80 rather than 70 makes a difference of a few minutes over hundreds of miles... it's the slow speed bits you need to improve on and they're the risk/reward not adding up areas like heavy traffic or urban areas.
No-one failed my course, but the instructor did make a point about having to join in. The only time I really couldn't bite my tongue was when they made a big point of handing out a "free" Highway Code to everyone and I felt obliged to point out it had cost us all £80! Still better than the fine and the points, though, plus the attendant loading of insurance premiums. Anyone who thinks insurers don't care about speeding points nowadays is deluding themselves
One of our instructors was cool; she even taught drifting at Goodwood. She was motivated by the death of a family member in an RTA. The other one was an adenoidal drone with that bus-spotter IAM monotone voice and absolutely devoid of any sense of humour. So they sorta evened out over the day
Braking systems really make no difference to real-world situations; thinking time IS the limiting factor and on top of that the Code ought to add "retard time" which is the time it takes the average motorist in the climate-controlled luxury of their private isolation cocoon to put down their latte/phone/makeup/cock/whatever they're playing with instead of paying attention and actually react to the fact the traffic is doing something unexpected.
I agree with the OP, I've frequently driven fast just for the sake of it and the fun. I'm not trying to justify it, and I'll take the punishment if I get caught....Or would I? The ultimate irony of me doing a speed awareness course was that on the way to the course a tanker spilled its load on the dual carriageway and I was trapped in a traffic jam with no escape. I'd left what I thought was plenty of time, but not over a hour! When I got out of the jam, I set a new lap record of Sussex to make the cut-off time, hitting well into three figures. Not proud, but it does disprove the "higher speed doesn't improve your average" thing; you just need to hit a really high speed. I got there just as they were closing the doors, and the IAM drone told me another minute I'd have been kicked off the course and had to take the points, no arguments. I didn't tell him how I'd actually managed to hit the deadline
I found the Speed Awareness course I was "offered" actually fairly interesting, and it was good to refresh some points of the Highway Code I hadn't even thought about since I passed my test thirty years before.
It was interesting how many others on my course were utterly clueless... no idea that single carriageway roads have different speed limits to dual, that commercial vehicles have different limits (this included "professional" commercial vehicle drivers!), that you can tell urban limits by the presence of street lights, etc. I felt the net ability of the drivers locally was increased after the course.
The thing about having to travel massive distances above the limit to drop your arrival time is true, as anyone who's tried the "beat the satnav projected arrival time" game will know. Doing 80 rather than 70 makes a difference of a few minutes over hundreds of miles... it's the slow speed bits you need to improve on and they're the risk/reward not adding up areas like heavy traffic or urban areas.
No-one failed my course, but the instructor did make a point about having to join in. The only time I really couldn't bite my tongue was when they made a big point of handing out a "free" Highway Code to everyone and I felt obliged to point out it had cost us all £80! Still better than the fine and the points, though, plus the attendant loading of insurance premiums. Anyone who thinks insurers don't care about speeding points nowadays is deluding themselves
One of our instructors was cool; she even taught drifting at Goodwood. She was motivated by the death of a family member in an RTA. The other one was an adenoidal drone with that bus-spotter IAM monotone voice and absolutely devoid of any sense of humour. So they sorta evened out over the day
Braking systems really make no difference to real-world situations; thinking time IS the limiting factor and on top of that the Code ought to add "retard time" which is the time it takes the average motorist in the climate-controlled luxury of their private isolation cocoon to put down their latte/phone/makeup/cock/whatever they're playing with instead of paying attention and actually react to the fact the traffic is doing something unexpected.
I agree with the OP, I've frequently driven fast just for the sake of it and the fun. I'm not trying to justify it, and I'll take the punishment if I get caught....Or would I? The ultimate irony of me doing a speed awareness course was that on the way to the course a tanker spilled its load on the dual carriageway and I was trapped in a traffic jam with no escape. I'd left what I thought was plenty of time, but not over a hour! When I got out of the jam, I set a new lap record of Sussex to make the cut-off time, hitting well into three figures. Not proud, but it does disprove the "higher speed doesn't improve your average" thing; you just need to hit a really high speed. I got there just as they were closing the doors, and the IAM drone told me another minute I'd have been kicked off the course and had to take the points, no arguments. I didn't tell him how I'd actually managed to hit the deadline
Edited by Nik da Greek on Saturday 29th July 14:10
Moonhawk said:
But that assumes the reason for his overtake was to get there quicker. For the average journey - overtaking will actually gain you very little time, however it can make the journey a lot more enjoyable, especially if the person you overtook was overly hesitant, constantly on the brakes, doing significantly less than the speed limit etc.
Precisely. I overtake people to get the freedom to drive how I like. If I catch up to someone I look at how they're driving as part of my decision to look for an overtake. Some people brake when you should accelerate and accelerate when you should brake... I like to get past them, because they make me feel uncomfortable.I had a fuel-light-on drive last night. I actually quite enjoyed the "defy the estimated range left" game. I lost 3 miles of range on a 30 mile drive. I'm going on holiday soon (Wales) and so my car-of-buslike-proportions will be loaded to the gunwhales... so it's going to be a smooth eco drive, not a time trial..
Ron99 said:
At 90mph you'll be getting much worse mpg than at 70mph
Depends on the car. Anything with an engine of over two litres, it won't IME make much difference.For example, my current BMW 325, cruising at anything up to 120 mph, but averaging 90 mph,
gets about 2 mpg worse than sitting at 80mph.
Various other cars similar results. Thrash a small engined car and you will get poor fuel economy.
Ron99 said:
From my observations, fuel economy drops roughly in direct proportion to speed.
A typical diesel which gives 60mpg at 60mph (9p/mile) would probably manage only 40mpg at 90mph (13.5p/mile).
If you can convert your probably into reality, you'd have a stronger case.A typical diesel which gives 60mpg at 60mph (9p/mile) would probably manage only 40mpg at 90mph (13.5p/mile).
How about you go out and actually see what happens at high speed, rather
than relying on a "probably" ?
Come back when you've done 100,000 miles at over 100 mph and please
tell us your results.
We had several people bustling into the room minutes before the cut off time, 8:30 DESPITE the attendance letter stating people must be there 15 minutes before the start time.
They were all women, and I assume they all drove. No guesses how many speed limits were broken that day....
I drive up to Leeds today, to a bike show, motorway, and I obeyed the letter of the law all the way, 70 in a 70, 50 through the roadworks that covered at least 50 % of the journey.
Never have I been so bored and sleepy on a trip like that. ....... windows open, closed, open, air con on, off, on, radio loud, radio off, singing to myself loudly to maintain some sense of being there.
I rarely drive above 85 normally, but when carving through the dawdling dross on the motorway even that little extra speed gives a sense of urgency to ones roadmanship and keeps the mind focused a lot better.
(A little over dramatic actually, as I only drive a Mundano 1.6 diesel, but never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh?)
They were all women, and I assume they all drove. No guesses how many speed limits were broken that day....
I drive up to Leeds today, to a bike show, motorway, and I obeyed the letter of the law all the way, 70 in a 70, 50 through the roadworks that covered at least 50 % of the journey.
Never have I been so bored and sleepy on a trip like that. ....... windows open, closed, open, air con on, off, on, radio loud, radio off, singing to myself loudly to maintain some sense of being there.
I rarely drive above 85 normally, but when carving through the dawdling dross on the motorway even that little extra speed gives a sense of urgency to ones roadmanship and keeps the mind focused a lot better.
(A little over dramatic actually, as I only drive a Mundano 1.6 diesel, but never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh?)
Ron99 said:
V8RX7 said:
....Where I save huge amounts of time is commuting - I can easily save 25% of the time it takes my wife to do the same journey saving 40 mins every day
But as per my post at 11:10 on page 4, the faster you go to save time, the more hours you need to work to pay for the extra fuel used.However it's more that I enjoy a drive where I'm thinking and alert, I feel my life draining from me when trundling with the sheep - if that costs me an extra £5 a day - so be it.
V8RX7 said:
Ron99 said:
V8RX7 said:
....Where I save huge amounts of time is commuting - I can easily save 25% of the time it takes my wife to do the same journey saving 40 mins every day
But as per my post at 11:10 on page 4, the faster you go to save time, the more hours you need to work to pay for the extra fuel used.However it's more that I enjoy a drive where I'm thinking and alert, I feel my life draining from me when trundling with the sheep - if that costs me an extra £5 a day - so be it.
dcb said:
If you can convert your probably into reality, you'd have a stronger case.
How about you go out and actually see what happens at high speed, rather
than relying on a "probably" ?
Come back when you've done 100,000 miles at over 100 mph and please
tell us your results.
The mpg figures are the kind of figures I've seen in the real world over many thousands of miles (for some years our household has run 3-4 cars covering a total of 30-40k per year).How about you go out and actually see what happens at high speed, rather
than relying on a "probably" ?
Come back when you've done 100,000 miles at over 100 mph and please
tell us your results.
70mpg from a diesel at 50mph, dropping to 60mpg at 60mph, 50mpg at 70mph and 45mpg at 75mph.
40mpg from a petrol at 50mph dropping to 30mpg at 70mph and 25mpg at 75mph.
I don't generally cruise at more than 75mph because I cover 20-25k per year and pass far too many speed traps to want to take the risk. Besides: speeding points add to the cost of insurance (and any brush with the law would have cost me my job with my previous employer). Personally I get much more fun out of a twisty minor A-road or major B-road at speeds often less than the NSL rather than zipping along in a straight line at high speed on a motorway.
I've also been involved with ballistics development (guns and the stuff that comes out of their barrels) and a friend of mine still develops shotgun cartridges - and as with cars, it takes vastly more energy to move a projectile from a weapon at a higher speed, plus air resistance expends that energy vastly faster than at slower speeds.
My real-world observations of cars at legal-ish speeds are consistent with the laws of physics, therefore why not use laws of physics to project higher speeds?
Edited by Ron99 on Saturday 29th July 19:17
So if the only possible answer to speeding is "to get there quicker" then it follows that the only explanation to driving slower is "to make the journey longer than needed".
So all the pensioners actively want to get to the garden centre 10 minutes later than they could do, and all these years I thought they were just being t
ts.
So all the pensioners actively want to get to the garden centre 10 minutes later than they could do, and all these years I thought they were just being t
ts.mickmcpaddy said:
.....it follows that the only explanation to driving slower is "to make the journey longer than needed".
No, it's:'If I drive at 60mph instead of 90mph, I won't have to ask the boss for overtime this month to pay for the extra fuel. I also won't have to pay £100 for speeding fine/course nor an extra £15/month for the next few years after declaring points to my insurer'.
Ron99 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
.....it follows that the only explanation to driving slower is "to make the journey longer than needed".
No, it's:'If I drive at 60mph instead of 90mph, I won't have to ask the boss for overtime this month to pay for the extra fuel. I also won't have to pay £100 for speeding fine/course nor an extra £15/month for the next few years after declaring points to my insurer'.
King Herald said:
One interesting snippet he demonstrated was that if you were ten minutes late, for example, and wanted to make it up by doing 80 instead of 70mph on the motorway, you'd have to drive 100 miles without dropping your speed to catch up that ten minutes. I'd never really thought that out before.
Neither had I, but that's because your instructors maths are wrong. It's not 100 miles.It actually works out to 92.6
It'd be quite interesting to know whether the people who want everyone to go at 70mph and no faster on motorways will change their minds once auto-driving cars have reduced the reaction time to effectively zero, or once all the cars are electric (so the fuel economy/emissions argument goes out the window).
What will they consider a safe speed then? 70mph? 100mph?
The safest mode of transport overall is circa 500mph and is computer controlled most of the time (jet aeroplanes) - once the idiot driver has been taken out of the loop, what's the idea then? Are we free to go as fast as we like?
Genuinely pondering this.
What will they consider a safe speed then? 70mph? 100mph?
The safest mode of transport overall is circa 500mph and is computer controlled most of the time (jet aeroplanes) - once the idiot driver has been taken out of the loop, what's the idea then? Are we free to go as fast as we like?
Genuinely pondering this.
CraigyMc said:
It'd be quite interesting to know whether the people who want everyone to go at 70mph and no faster on motorways will change their minds once auto-driving cars have reduced the reaction time to effectively zero, or once all the cars are electric (so the fuel economy/emissions argument goes out the window).
What will they consider a safe speed then? 70mph? 100mph?
The safest mode of transport overall is circa 500mph and is computer controlled most of the time (jet aeroplanes) - once the idiot driver has been taken out of the loop, what's the idea then? Are we free to go as fast as we like?
Genuinely pondering this.
I suspect much like the passengers on the ferry, train & plane networks they'll not give it much thought & leave it up to the people running/working within the network to control the speeds.What will they consider a safe speed then? 70mph? 100mph?
The safest mode of transport overall is circa 500mph and is computer controlled most of the time (jet aeroplanes) - once the idiot driver has been taken out of the loop, what's the idea then? Are we free to go as fast as we like?
Genuinely pondering this.
I'm more interested how close automated cars will choose for following distance... imagine situations where your car joins the M4, slots into a pack of cars half a mile long that's cruising at 105mph with <2 feet of air between the bumpers of each car...
I reckon that once that technology's around, you'd find Tesla etc selling the idea of electric self-driving cars to the Southern USA by turning up at NASCAR races and doing demonstration runs around the ovals...
I reckon that once that technology's around, you'd find Tesla etc selling the idea of electric self-driving cars to the Southern USA by turning up at NASCAR races and doing demonstration runs around the ovals...
vonhosen said:
You do realise it is possible to be thinking & alert below those speeds that'll see you being offered a speed awareness course (or FPN / Court etc)?
This is what you fail to understand - for me it isn't.I've sped everyday for the last 25+ years without incident so I must be doing something right.
V8RX7 said:
vonhosen said:
You do realise it is possible to be thinking & alert below those speeds that'll see you being offered a speed awareness course (or FPN / Court etc)?
This is what you fail to understand - for me it isn't.I've sped everyday for the last 25+ years without incident so I must be doing something right.
that it's the only option available in order to remain alert enough to avoid collisions).Those who are limited to the one option leave themselves consistently open to conflict with the authorities, whilst those with a larger more diverse skill set don't.
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