RE: Honda Integra Type R (DC5): Spotted

[designforlife]

Resolutionary said:

The DC2 surely deserves it's cult status, being largely agreed as one of the best handling FWD cars made, moreso for the screaming V-Tec action.

Trouble is, rising / appreciating prices don't tell the story of what lies beneath - several friends have chopped theirs in after throwing handfuls of cash at things like:

- Rust; commonplace in the rear quarter panels and other places
- Paint; the difficulty is getting a competent body shop to do a sympathetic repair or respray where a chip or damage is found
- Interior; unbelievably dated now, and the red seats (although beautiful) seem to look very tired and shagged very quickly
- Leaks; water ingress causes the rust, but sunroofs and seals are a bit troublesome too it seems

I'd genuinely love one as a weekend toy, driven a few and loved them. But a good'un would be far more expensive than most would be willing to pay, and when a car like this encroaches on M3 / R26 money, as a track day option it's less desireable than a DC5 to say the very least, for the aforementioned reasons.

precisely the reasons i went for a DC5 over a DC2....I had a mitsubishi mirage asti which was the same era as the DC2, a mini version if you like...I got more than fed up with throwing thousands at sorting rust and bodywork out.

The Dc5 to me, feels like a pretty modern car to drive, if a little harsh due to the track oriented OEM suspension.

[dannyDC2]

How about you take that DC5 engine and put it in a DC2?

[tomcrowther]

dannyDC2 said:

How about you take that DC5 engine and put it in a DC2?

I knew when i was reading the article you'd pop up in here about K20'd DC2s

[topless360]

Resolutionary said:

I'd genuinely love one as a weekend toy, driven a few and loved them. But a good'un would be far more expensive than most would be willing to pay, and when a car like this encroaches on M3 / R26 money, as a track day option it's less desireable than a DC5 to say the very least, for the aforementioned reasons.

I don't think an M3 can be compared to a DC2. Sure the numbers come up faster in an M3, but it doesn't feel as fast and it's far less engaging. It's almost numb by comparison (I'm sure DannyDC2 can give us a proper comparison since he owns both).
And with the R26, I'm not sure what it does better than the DC2. It may not rust as much, but Renault reliability is hardly great.

I genuinely can't think of another car this side of a 997 GT3 I'd rather have than my DC2, hence I've removed it from the classifieds and decided to enjoy it for a while longer

Edited by topless360 on Friday 28th July 13:45

[Integroo]

I really want a DC5. I would worry that they are overpriced, and would need a lot of money thrown at them to keep them going, especially for a car novice like myself who wouldn't be able to do any work myself.

[rossub]

Integroo said:

I really want a DC5. I would worry that they are overpriced, and would need a lot of money thrown at them to keep them going, especially for a car novice like myself who wouldn't be able to do any work myself.

They're one of the most reliable cars ever made. Had one for 7 years - just a battery and drop links needed.

[designforlife]

Integroo said:

I really want a DC5. I would worry that they are overpriced, and would need a lot of money thrown at them to keep them going, especially for a car novice like myself who wouldn't be able to do any work myself.

As i said in your what car thread a couple weeks back, they really aren't too bad in terms of maintenance costs.

the service interval is 12,500 miles , with a major service at 75,000. Fuel wise, I get about 300 miles to a tank, and i don't drive like a grandad. parts costs seem comparable to mazda and mitsubishi.

Tyres aside, i'd equate running costs (including insurance) to be broadly similar to my old mk2 mx5. Only difference being I run the DC5 on vpower rather than any old 95RON.

They're expensive compared to a civic type r, but you are getting a car that stands apart, rather than a glorified shopping hatchback.

In terms of wear and tear all mine has needed has been droplinks, and a new engine mount...all cheap enough.

[davey83]

350z for this money if back seats aren't a must

[Resolutionary]

topless360 said:

I don't think an M3 can be compared to a DC2. Sure the numbers come up faster in an M3, but it doesn't feel as fast and it's far less engaging. It's almost numb by comparison (I'm sure DannyDC2 can give us a proper comparison since he owns both).
And with the R26, I'm not sure what it does better than the DC2. It may not rust as much, but Renault reliability is hardly great.

I genuinely can't think of another car this side of a 997 GT3 I'd rather have than my DC2, hence I've removed it from the classifieds and decided to enjoy it for a while longer

Edited by topless360 on Friday 28th July 13:45

Not a comparison between an M3 / R26 and a DC2, more of a suggestion that the other suggestions would make a more competent all rounder. Of course any vehicle that one chooses to put to track use would inherently have it's own series of issues, but I know I would rather spend the best part of £10k on a more refined option without the risk of at least some of the issues I mentioned in my earlier post.

Likewise, I don't think a DC2 can compare to a GT3 but it's all down to individual preference and requirements!

[dannyDC2]

I'm not sure I'm best to give the '46 M3 vs DC2 opinion since mine are both at opposite scales of 'build' - but my DC2 can just about keep up with M3s on trackdays. With that said though I don't know if I could beat on an M3 like I do my DC2 and it be as reliable. Especially after reading about the chap in readers rides who's engine went bang at Bedford. (M3)

I'm not sure if the Integras are worth what they are going for now tbh. You've got to be a bit of a FWD/Vtec enthusiast to warrant the outlay. It's a lot of fun though

[plenty]

Resolutionary said:

Trouble is, rising / appreciating prices don't tell the story of what lies beneath - several friends have chopped theirs in after throwing handfuls of cash at things like:

- Rust; commonplace in the rear quarter panels and other places
- Paint; the difficulty is getting a competent body shop to do a sympathetic repair or respray where a chip or damage is found
- Interior; unbelievably dated now, and the red seats (although beautiful) seem to look very tired and shagged very quickly
- Leaks; water ingress causes the rust, but sunroofs and seals are a bit troublesome too it seems

Really useful real-world feedback - thank you.

I've lusted after a DC2 for years, but it would be have to be kept outside and I can envisage rust/leaks taking the shine off ownership in the long term.

[Butter Face]

designforlife said:

They're expensive compared to a civic type r, but you are getting a car that stands apart, rather than a glorified shopping hatchback

All well and good, if you're happy to pay a JDM tax for what is essentially the same car underneath..... I mean, the DC5 is a hatchback too..

Buy an EP3, modify it and have a car that's better than a DC5 in every respect

[Jonstar]

I like these, they just had a tough act to follow in the dc2. More modern, more refined but still good fun from what I hear and they have hydraulic steering which even if not the best is 10 times better than the ep3's electric rack!

350z's and m3's are great but completely different types of cars, far softer and less focused.

Ultimately you need to put it into perspective. There's not many 'hardcore' cars you can buy these days, especially with the attention to detail honda are known for. An R26r, Cayman r, cooper s. GP etc are all multiples more expensive so I think relatively they're quite good value.

[havoc]

greenarrow said:

I think these are great, but second hand prices are so silly now for cult cars that I keep thinking of stuff I'd rather own that's equally as interesting but lots cheaper!!

E.G. a Mazda RX-8, the pro-drive one....Available with half the miles and warranted engine for less than half the money and its RWD!!

Or the Nissan 350Z - again much cheaper, RWD and faster, to boot.

Or the Megane R26 F1 - ok the engine is boring compared with the Intergra, but again thousands cheaper and just as capable in the chassis dept!!

There's really an awful lot of choice out there for the discerning buyer.....

Two fair points out of 3!

- Not driven the Prodrive RX8, but the standard one is a genuinely fun bit of kit, and they are a bargain because of the rep of rotaries. Think you'd need to be a lot more on your game down a challenging B-road in the RX8 though, or in the wet...which is both a positive and negative.

- 350Z is a wholly different type of car - it's a GT, a heavy bruiser not a scalpel-like racer. Later cars have a very good engine (early ones feel strangled and it discourages you from using the full rev-range), and by all accounts they're very throttle-steerable. But I don't get how something so impractical weighs the same as an E46 M3! (Which i'd take any day over a Z)

- R26 is always a good shout, esp. in later flavours. By all accounts the Dieppe factory QC was a lot better than standard Renault fare too...



As for the original premise - price-vs-value of these cars now - look at what NO ONE is making anymore (except Porsche if you've got £100k+, and Lotus if you don't need even a slice of practicality) - high-revving, sonorous nat-asp engines mated to slick manual gearboxes. Cars like the DC2, DC5 and FD2 (alongside the RX8 and older M3's) represent the (affordable) high-water mark of that particular flavour of performance car.
And for many, that IS the holy grail, regardless of driven wheels. Add-in Honda's renowned reliability (at least in that era), and you've got a nice safe future classic...
...well, aside from the rust!

PS - SUNROOF?!? Can't let that slide...Resolutionary, WTF are you talking about?!?

[Alpinestars]

In standard guise, It's not as good or raw as a DC2, but strip the interior out, turbocharge it and add some suspension etc, and it's an absolute riot. It's one of the most thrilling cars to drive. Makes most other cars feel very dull. But you need to watch that torque steer, will thrown you from lane 1 to 3 in a flash if you're not concentrating.

https://youtu.be/VIKnEU6zgbw

[lemmingjames]

topless360 said:

I genuinely can't think of another car this side of a 997 GT3 I'd rather have than my DC2,

Id take a DC5 and a 996.2 GT3

Edited by lemmingjames on Friday 28th July 22:17

[Integroo]

designforlife said:

Integroo said:

I really want a DC5. I would worry that they are overpriced, and would need a lot of money thrown at them to keep them going, especially for a car novice like myself who wouldn't be able to do any work myself.

As i said in your what car thread a couple weeks back, they really aren't too bad in terms of maintenance costs.

the service interval is 12,500 miles , with a major service at 75,000. Fuel wise, I get about 300 miles to a tank, and i don't drive like a grandad. parts costs seem comparable to mazda and mitsubishi.

Tyres aside, i'd equate running costs (including insurance) to be broadly similar to my old mk2 mx5. Only difference being I run the DC5 on vpower rather than any old 95RON.

They're expensive compared to a civic type r, but you are getting a car that stands apart, rather than a glorified shopping hatchback.

In terms of wear and tear all mine has needed has been droplinks, and a new engine mount...all cheap enough.

Spending ten grand on a twelve year old car with 80k miles though ?

[havoc]

Integroo said:

Spending ten grand on a twelve year old car with 80k miles though ?

A Sierra Cosworth RS500 just sold this weekend for £122k!!!

A 205GTi has sold for £38k!

An Escort RS Turbo has sold for £50k!


...so can I suggest that £10k for a DC2 OR a DC5, in that context, doesn't represent bad VFM. Not as IMHO they're unquestionably better driver's cars than the 2nd and 3rd (I have driven both - the RS Turbo is an unremitting dog dynamically) and quite arguably better than the Cossie also...

[Gareth79]

I was shopping for a new car recently and it was a choice between a DC5, EP3 or FN2. As the article says, I saw a 100k DC5 is £8k-ish. I was looking for something to use daily, so I'd be putting 10,000 miles a year on it which I'm sure would drastically reduce its value, not to mention wearing everything out that hadn't worn out yet. I decided on the FN2 over the EP3 because it has all the safety features I'd want on a commuting car, plus decent air con etc, and don't regret my decision.

[Paul671]

Practically depreciation proof cars, sold my DC5 in 2010 for about £7.5k, that car today would go for the same or a little more.

Sold my DC2 for more than I paid, neither integra is particularly expensive to run, I would say that makes them excellent value for money before you even consider how good they are to drive.

Hated my EP3 though despite being very cheap to buy.