RE: Viper 'ring lap record attempt: Time For Coffee
Discussion
RacerMike said:
No, but I've done an 8min 12sec in a Focus RS with traffic, and a sub 8 in an F-Type. Wasn't saying it was a bad lap.....just an interesting steering technique! One handed through Adenau Bridge and letting the wheel slip through his (one) hand at the Karussell were particular highlights!
There is a world of difference between an approx eight minute lap and an approx seven minute one. A world. An entire universe. A different ballgame.I've been round there in an old 911 RS a few years back in eight minutes or so and yep it's moving a bit but nothing - absolutely nothing - compared to that lap.
The level of commitment here is on a different plane and in respect to criticising his steering technique I think you're not properly giving credit to the fact that he has such big horsepower and such a physical, brutal car to heave around. He's testing the grip at the front and back constantly and making sure the car stays tucked in nice. I'll grant you that it seems remarkably tied down at the back - almost understeery in some places but I think when you're clocking 7:05 or whatever it was you earn the right to steer however suits you and that particular car the best without attracting criticism from someone who's a full minute slower than you!
Julian Thompson said:
The level of commitment here is on a different plane and in respect to criticising his steering technique I think you're not properly giving credit to the fact that he has such big horsepower and such a physical, brutal car to heave around.
Much kudos to the driver, but if it's such a brutal, physical car then how come he only needs one hand to steer in places? Shouldn't it be the opposite?My only thoughts are that perhaps the gearbox is recalcitrant and he wants a steady grip on it before slotting a gear.
fatboy18 said:
ScienceTeacher said:
Looking at the vids, the Viper seems to top out at a modest 281 km/h or so on the long back straight. The surely lower powered 991.2 GT3 gets to 285, the Lambo a much more meaty 304. Why so slow for the Viper?
Easy answer, its the Aero.
versus 0.37 for normal model.Edited by boxerTen on Monday 31st July 23:41
stradman said:
fblm said:
Did you really do your first trackday in an ACR? At Spa? Holy fvck! 
No it was my 3rd time at Spa overall. But it was my first track day with the ACR. What better place to unleash hell right??
fatboy18 said:
When they had a go at a hot lap they had had 1 warm up lap and then 1, Yes, Just 1 Hot lap!
This time was from that "1 hot lap".
That, is ridiculously impressive. I wonder how many laps and adjustments it took Porsche to post the 918 time and Lamborghini with the Hurracan.This time was from that "1 hot lap".
fblm said:
stradman said:
fblm said:
Did you really do your first trackday in an ACR? At Spa? Holy fvck!
No it was my 3rd time at Spa overall. But it was my first track day with the ACR. What better place to unleash hell right??
I'm sure "Stradman" was probably going a bit quicker than me 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPTuFYBo_AY
Julian Thompson said:
RacerMike said:
No, but I've done an 8min 12sec in a Focus RS with traffic, and a sub 8 in an F-Type. Wasn't saying it was a bad lap.....just an interesting steering technique! One handed through Adenau Bridge and letting the wheel slip through his (one) hand at the Karussell were particular highlights!
There is a world of difference between an approx eight minute lap and an approx seven minute one. A world. An entire universe. A different ballgame.I've been round there in an old 911 RS a few years back in eight minutes or so and yep it's moving a bit but nothing - absolutely nothing - compared to that lap.
The level of commitment here is on a different plane and in respect to criticising his steering technique I think you're not properly giving credit to the fact that he has such big horsepower and such a physical, brutal car to heave around. He's testing the grip at the front and back constantly and making sure the car stays tucked in nice. I'll grant you that it seems remarkably tied down at the back - almost understeery in some places but I think when you're clocking 7:05 or whatever it was you earn the right to steer however suits you and that particular car the best without attracting criticism from someone who's a full minute slower than you!
Julian Thompson said:
RacerMike said:
No, but I've done an 8min 12sec in a Focus RS with traffic, and a sub 8 in an F-Type. Wasn't saying it was a bad lap.....just an interesting steering technique! One handed through Adenau Bridge and letting the wheel slip through his (one) hand at the Karussell were particular highlights!
There is a world of difference between an approx eight minute lap and an approx seven minute one. A world. An entire universe. A different ballgame.I've been round there in an old 911 RS a few years back in eight minutes or so and yep it's moving a bit but nothing - absolutely nothing - compared to that lap.
The level of commitment here is on a different plane and in respect to criticising his steering technique I think you're not properly giving credit to the fact that he has such big horsepower and such a physical, brutal car to heave around. He's testing the grip at the front and back constantly and making sure the car stays tucked in nice. I'll grant you that it seems remarkably tied down at the back - almost understeery in some places but I think when you're clocking 7:05 or whatever it was you earn the right to steer however suits you and that particular car the best without attracting criticism from someone who's a full minute slower than you!
To say that doing a 7.05 "earns the right to steer however suits you" it's complete tosh. A better steering technique would greatly improve his consistency and more than likely help find a little more time. Speak to any driver coach and they will tell you that the basics (steering, braking, accelerating) are some of the most important. Guiding the wheel with the outside hand (which has better leverage and control than the inside hand that is relying on the much weaker wrist muscles) greatly helps precision, reduces fatigue and leads to a smoother technique.
And as for saying an 8min lap is a world away from a 7min lap. It all depends on the car doesn't it? A 7min lap in a GT3 car is not very fast at all but a 9min lap in a 320d is absolutely monumental. 8mins in a GT3 RS is fairly sedate for a car that will do a mid 7min lap time, but, as you experienced, is still quite quick if you're not used to going round the place fast. If you fancy seeing what 8min12 in a Ford Focus looks like, feel free to watch my video below. Hopefully you can see it's not 'a world away' from a 7min time in a car with a lot of downforce and double the power....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGHtLtqdEFo
I appreciate your final comment is flippant, but it does irk me somewhat that those on PH tend to hold anyone that's presented as a racing driver up on a pedestal as some kind of driving god. There are many of us around on here who have raced at different levels and you have to realise that a 'pro' (whatever that actually means these days given that the majority of drivers are paying for their seat in some way or another) isn't necessarily some untouchable driving talent.
RacerMike said:
vz-r_dave said:
It's easy to come on here and critisize, it's the PH way. Even when someone is completing a near 7 minute ring lap pffff.
Nothing wrong with criticism if it's backed up with something and intended to be constructive surely?vz-r_dave said:
RacerMike said:
vz-r_dave said:
It's easy to come on here and critisize, it's the PH way. Even when someone is completing a near 7 minute ring lap pffff.
Nothing wrong with criticism if it's backed up with something and intended to be constructive surely?Racer Mike, with all due respect mate I don't agree at all with your thoughts. Can I ask are you a pro racing driver or have you been most of your adult life.? Having raced on an amateur basis doesn't really make you that qualified to necessarily judge a pro driver. Sure he may have an "unorthodox" style but so what? There are countless legends in many sports who conformed to none of the perceived correct styles and who excelled in their field. Any coach would cast aside any preconceptions if their they're pupil did the job excellently but with a weird style. And infact with my eyes at least I can see no point where the car or Dominik has been compromised through his one handed style. And considering he pumped this time out with very little time with the car or other practice runs just says to me yes he can use one hand if he feels like it....
stradman said:
Racer Mike, with all due respect mate I don't agree at all with your thoughts. Can I ask are you a pro racing driver or have you been most of your adult life.? Having raced on an amateur basis doesn't really make you that qualified to necessarily judge a pro driver. Sure he may have an "unorthodox" style but so what? There are countless legends in many sports who conformed to none of the perceived correct styles and who excelled in their field. Any coach would cast aside any preconceptions if their they're pupil did the job excellently but with a weird style. And infact with my eyes at least I can see no point where the car or Dominik has been compromised through his one handed style. And considering he pumped this time out with very little time with the car or other practice runs just says to me yes he can use one hand if he feels like it....
I've raced at a Pro level (British and European GT with podium finishes), won a championship in Caterhams and work as a development driver/engineer for a major OEM doing vehicle stability control development for 6 years. BUT, that's the thing....that doesn't mean that I'm either the font of all driving knowledge or incapable of learning stuff. I'm sure Dom is a great driver, but as I said, one never stops learning. His time in the Viper is very competitive, but any driver coach worth their salt would pick up on his steering technique. Unorthodox styles are things like Rob Wilson's agressive steering technique in slow corners, Veeing off hairpins, and 'shortest distance' approach. They are not steering with one hand on the wheel and the other on the gear leaver, whilst sawing at the wheel. With modern data analysis, it's possible to analyse exactly what is and isn't quicker. It's possible Dom's steering technique is quicker/more consistent, but I'd like to see data that shows this.
As I previously said before getting bogged down in this discussion, his lap is very impressive, but his steering technique is terrible. That takes nothing away from the effort.
RacerMike said:
stradman said:
Racer Mike, with all due respect mate I don't agree at all with your thoughts. Can I ask are you a pro racing driver or have you been most of your adult life.? Having raced on an amateur basis doesn't really make you that qualified to necessarily judge a pro driver. Sure he may have an "unorthodox" style but so what? There are countless legends in many sports who conformed to none of the perceived correct styles and who excelled in their field. Any coach would cast aside any preconceptions if their they're pupil did the job excellently but with a weird style. And infact with my eyes at least I can see no point where the car or Dominik has been compromised through his one handed style. And considering he pumped this time out with very little time with the car or other practice runs just says to me yes he can use one hand if he feels like it....
I've raced at a Pro level (British and European GT with podium finishes), won a championship in Caterhams and work as a development driver/engineer for a major OEM doing vehicle stability control development for 6 years. BUT, that's the thing....that doesn't mean that I'm either the font of all driving knowledge or incapable of learning stuff. I'm sure Dom is a great driver, but as I said, one never stops learning. His time in the Viper is very competitive, but any driver coach worth their salt would pick up on his steering technique. Unorthodox styles are things like Rob Wilson's agressive steering technique in slow corners, Veeing off hairpins, and 'shortest distance' approach. They are not steering with one hand on the wheel and the other on the gear leaver, whilst sawing at the wheel. With modern data analysis, it's possible to analyse exactly what is and isn't quicker. It's possible Dom's steering technique is quicker/more consistent, but I'd like to see data that shows this.
As I previously said before getting bogged down in this discussion, his lap is very impressive, but his steering technique is terrible. That takes nothing away from the effort.
vz-r_dave said:
Haha I can appreciate that you didn't fancy writing this blurb on your origingal post, however its a good way to round up your opinion
Exactly, and it also ends up sounding like I'm being far more critical than I was! As I said.....a really great lap to watch, and I really hope that the next attempt gets the record. As it stands, Dom surely has the fastest one handed lap round there by some margin....Well it will be interesting to see what time Luca Stoltz does when they return to the ring in 3 weeks. There are 2 cars that will be doing the attempt, with Luca in the second one, so interesting to see if Luca - using the 2 hand steering wheel technique - pips Dominik with a better time.
stradman said:
Well it will be interesting to see what time Luca Stoltz does when they return to the ring in 3 weeks. There are 2 cars that will be doing the attempt, with Luca in the second one, so interesting to see if Luca - using the 2 hand steering wheel technique - pips Dominik with a better time.
I hope what ever happens that they crack the 7 min barrierRacerMike said:
Julian Thompson said:
RacerMike said:
No, but I've done an 8min 12sec in a Focus RS with traffic, and a sub 8 in an F-Type. Wasn't saying it was a bad lap.....just an interesting steering technique! One handed through Adenau Bridge and letting the wheel slip through his (one) hand at the Karussell were particular highlights!
There is a world of difference between an approx eight minute lap and an approx seven minute one. A world. An entire universe. A different ballgame.I've been round there in an old 911 RS a few years back in eight minutes or so and yep it's moving a bit but nothing - absolutely nothing - compared to that lap.
The level of commitment here is on a different plane and in respect to criticising his steering technique I think you're not properly giving credit to the fact that he has such big horsepower and such a physical, brutal car to heave around. He's testing the grip at the front and back constantly and making sure the car stays tucked in nice. I'll grant you that it seems remarkably tied down at the back - almost understeery in some places but I think when you're clocking 7:05 or whatever it was you earn the right to steer however suits you and that particular car the best without attracting criticism from someone who's a full minute slower than you!
To say that doing a 7.05 "earns the right to steer however suits you" it's complete tosh. A better steering technique would greatly improve his consistency and more than likely help find a little more time. Speak to any driver coach and they will tell you that the basics (steering, braking, accelerating) are some of the most important. Guiding the wheel with the outside hand (which has better leverage and control than the inside hand that is relying on the much weaker wrist muscles) greatly helps precision, reduces fatigue and leads to a smoother technique.
And as for saying an 8min lap is a world away from a 7min lap. It all depends on the car doesn't it? A 7min lap in a GT3 car is not very fast at all but a 9min lap in a 320d is absolutely monumental. 8mins in a GT3 RS is fairly sedate for a car that will do a mid 7min lap time, but, as you experienced, is still quite quick if you're not used to going round the place fast. If you fancy seeing what 8min12 in a Ford Focus looks like, feel free to watch my video below. Hopefully you can see it's not 'a world away' from a 7min time in a car with a lot of downforce and double the power....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGHtLtqdEFo
I appreciate your final comment is flippant, but it does irk me somewhat that those on PH tend to hold anyone that's presented as a racing driver up on a pedestal as some kind of driving god. There are many of us around on here who have raced at different levels and you have to realise that a 'pro' (whatever that actually means these days given that the majority of drivers are paying for their seat in some way or another) isn't necessarily some untouchable driving talent.
However, to call a part of someone's technique "terrible" when that technique has just being demonstrated to yield great results on the track is dangerous ground. We aren't talking about Caterhams around Bedford Autodrome here - you're playing at the expert table with this...
My own minute in the eights (I don't precisely remember the time but I couldn't have personally gone faster) around there was a deal similar to your own - it wasn't in a gt3rs it was in my old 964 RS (in 2005 when they were still £40k!) - and with 280hp, unassisted steering and still relatively spikey handling (although it was running non standard, larger and stickier rubber on wider rims) it was a decent effort and I don't mind being reasonably pleased with myself about it - for an enthusiast with a fair bit of track time it was pretty good and it's stuck in my mind for over 10 years as being something to remember. But 911 or Focus eight odd minutes is still eight odd minutes. There is more time to think, peak speeds are modest, g forces still "of this world" and overall its basically a bit dull to watch because it's not at all extraordinary.
I also have to disagree with you in your citation that - for example - a lap around there in a 320d can be "monumental". Handling a 320d flat out is just not a monumental event. Optimal? Maybe? Committed? Almost certainly, but just because you can get close to optimal and committed in an ordinary road car with modest power doesn't mean you'll do the same in an aero assisted monster with 800hp.
You're talking like it's a linear curve in terms of being able to extract the performance from a car. In a 5mph golf cart race around the ring I would be every bit as fast as Lewis Hamilton. Does that mean I'll lap as well as him in your Focus? Nope. He will be some distance ahead of me. And what about the Viper? He will be exponentially further ahead of me because the car is getting more and more difficult to extract the maximum from.
I'm sure you're no stranger to Senna's staccato throttle technique - no instructor has EVER tried to teach me that - it's about as far removed from "squeeze on and squeeze off" as you'll find but I don't expect you'd call it "terrible" because it doesn't adhere to the norm? Or should I refer to your focus RS lap to gain some idea of what your optimal lap around the ring in an MP4/4 would be?
Its just a lot easier to find people with the necessary skills and balls to do an eight minute lap in a warmed over hatch or an old 911 than it is to find people who can actually take a car like the Viper and record a seven minuter, and that's why I took exception to your comment and felt it necessary to post.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Wednesday 2nd August 06:14
Edited by Julian Thompson on Wednesday 2nd August 06:26
Julian Thompson said:
Mike - First off I do take your point about improvement being a constant process - absolutely no argument there.
However, to call a part of someone's technique "terrible" when that technique has just being demonstrated to yield great results on the track is dangerous ground. We aren't talking about Caterhams around Bedford Autodrome here - you're playing at the expert table with this...
My own minute in the eights (I don't precisely remember the time but I couldn't have personally gone faster) around there was a deal similar to your own - it wasn't in a gt3rs it was in my old 964 RS (in 2005 when they were still £40k!) - and with 280hp, unassisted steering and still relatively spikey handling (although it was running non standard, larger and stickier rubber on wider rims) it was a decent effort and I don't mind being reasonably pleased with myself about it - for an enthusiast with a fair bit of track time it was pretty good and it's stuck in my mind for over 10 years as being something to remember. But 911 or Focus eight odd minutes is still eight odd minutes. There is more time to think, peak speeds are modest, g forces still "of this world" and overall its basically a bit dull to watch because it's not at all extraordinary.
I also have to disagree with you in your citation that - for example - a lap around there in a 320d can be "monumental". Handling a 320d flat out is just not a monumental event. Optimal? Maybe? Committed? Almost certainly, but just because you can get close to optimal and committed in an ordinary road car with modest power doesn't mean you'll do the same in an aero assisted monster with 800hp.
You're talking like it's a linear curve in terms of being able to extract the performance from a car. In a 5mph golf cart race around the ring I would be every bit as fast as Lewis Hamilton. Does that mean I'll lap as well as him in your Focus? Nope. He will be some distance ahead of me. And what about the Viper? He will be exponentially further ahead of me because the car is getting more and more difficult to extract the maximum from.
I'm sure you're no stranger to Senna's staccato throttle technique - no instructor has EVER tried to teach me that - it's about as far removed from "squeeze on and squeeze off" as you'll find but I don't expect you'd call it "terrible" because it doesn't adhere to the norm? Or should I refer to your focus RS lap to gain some idea of what your optimal lap around the ring in an MP4/4 would be?
Its just a lot easier to find people with the necessary skills and balls to do an eight minute lap in a warmed over hatch or an old 911 than it is to find people who can actually take a car like the Viper and record a seven minuter, and that's why I took exception to your comment and felt it necessary to post.
Julian. I appreciate what you're saying, although don't particularly appreciate the condescending way in which it's said. You seem like a very passionate chap, which is good, but as I said earlier, I don't really understand the vehement reaction about a perfectly valid comment on someones driving technique. However, to call a part of someone's technique "terrible" when that technique has just being demonstrated to yield great results on the track is dangerous ground. We aren't talking about Caterhams around Bedford Autodrome here - you're playing at the expert table with this...
My own minute in the eights (I don't precisely remember the time but I couldn't have personally gone faster) around there was a deal similar to your own - it wasn't in a gt3rs it was in my old 964 RS (in 2005 when they were still £40k!) - and with 280hp, unassisted steering and still relatively spikey handling (although it was running non standard, larger and stickier rubber on wider rims) it was a decent effort and I don't mind being reasonably pleased with myself about it - for an enthusiast with a fair bit of track time it was pretty good and it's stuck in my mind for over 10 years as being something to remember. But 911 or Focus eight odd minutes is still eight odd minutes. There is more time to think, peak speeds are modest, g forces still "of this world" and overall its basically a bit dull to watch because it's not at all extraordinary.
I also have to disagree with you in your citation that - for example - a lap around there in a 320d can be "monumental". Handling a 320d flat out is just not a monumental event. Optimal? Maybe? Committed? Almost certainly, but just because you can get close to optimal and committed in an ordinary road car with modest power doesn't mean you'll do the same in an aero assisted monster with 800hp.
You're talking like it's a linear curve in terms of being able to extract the performance from a car. In a 5mph golf cart race around the ring I would be every bit as fast as Lewis Hamilton. Does that mean I'll lap as well as him in your Focus? Nope. He will be some distance ahead of me. And what about the Viper? He will be exponentially further ahead of me because the car is getting more and more difficult to extract the maximum from.
I'm sure you're no stranger to Senna's staccato throttle technique - no instructor has EVER tried to teach me that - it's about as far removed from "squeeze on and squeeze off" as you'll find but I don't expect you'd call it "terrible" because it doesn't adhere to the norm? Or should I refer to your focus RS lap to gain some idea of what your optimal lap around the ring in an MP4/4 would be?
Its just a lot easier to find people with the necessary skills and balls to do an eight minute lap in a warmed over hatch or an old 911 than it is to find people who can actually take a car like the Viper and record a seven minuter, and that's why I took exception to your comment and felt it necessary to post.
Accept that I do, in part, know what I'm talking about and that it is indeed possible that someone who's a racing driver doesn't have absolutely perfect driving technique. That's precisely why there's a variance in ability even at the Pro level. I for one, wouldn't think I'd automatically jump in any car and be the fastest person in it! I'd like to think I wouldn't be horribly embarrassed, but I'd appreciate that if I am beaten, there must be something I can do to improve (be it in my own technique or in the car). Maybe the steering technique does work for him, but I'd be monumentally surprised if he wasn't at least more consistent with two hands on the wheel, but as I said, I'm open to being proven wrong if there is indeed a genuine quantifiable reason why it's faster.
You mention Senna's throttle technique. Indeed it was unorthodox, but for good reason. It's generally accepted that the reason he developed this technique was due to the lag in the turbo engines of the 80s. Stabbing the throttle helped to keep the turbo spinning, thus resulting in less lag out of the corners. He wasn't unbeatable though, so maybe his reluctance to change didn't help. Schumacher had already started to serious challenge Ayrton in 1994, and who knows how the new order of the 90's and early 00's would have compared to Senna.
Ultimately, I can see you are someone that will remain unconvinced whatever I say. Believe it or not though, people who race and have a modicum of talent do actually also have computers connected to the internet, and are able to communicate via the medium of Pistonheads. I've not once suggested I'd be quicker than Dominik, but you could at least accept that perhaps someone else on here knows more about driving, the Nurburgring and lap times than you do....
Anyway. This is getting unnecessary and more critical of another drivers ability than intended!
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