RE: Viper 'ring lap record attempt: Time For Coffee
Discussion
Yes Mike I'll accept all those points but you'll need to counter accept that had you said something like "I'm not totally convinced that the driver is using the absolutely optimum steering technique and that there might be even further room for marginal improvement" then we'd not be having this discussion - I just felt that you were yourself being condescending and a little nasty to just say "terrible steering technique" after the guy had just driven the doors off the thing and I'd enjoyed watching it so much!
Anyway - thanks for the constructive chat all is good.
Best,
Julian.
Anyway - thanks for the constructive chat all is good.
Best,
Julian.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Wednesday 2nd August 14:55
RacerMike said:
Julian. I appreciate what you're saying, although don't particularly appreciate the condescending way in which it's said. You seem like a very passionate chap, which is good, but as I said earlier, I don't really understand the vehement reaction about a perfectly valid comment on someones driving technique.
Accept that I do, in part, know what I'm talking about and that it is indeed possible that someone who's a racing driver doesn't have absolutely perfect driving technique. That's precisely why there's a variance in ability even at the Pro level. I for one, wouldn't think I'd automatically jump in any car and be the fastest person in it! I'd like to think I wouldn't be horribly embarrassed, but I'd appreciate that if I am beaten, there must be something I can do to improve (be it in my own technique or in the car). Maybe the steering technique does work for him, but I'd be monumentally surprised if he wasn't at least more consistent with two hands on the wheel, but as I said, I'm open to being proven wrong if there is indeed a genuine quantifiable reason why it's faster.
You mention Senna's throttle technique. Indeed it was unorthodox, but for good reason. It's generally accepted that the reason he developed this technique was due to the lag in the turbo engines of the 80s. Stabbing the throttle helped to keep the turbo spinning, thus resulting in less lag out of the corners. He wasn't unbeatable though, so maybe his reluctance to change didn't help. Schumacher had already started to serious challenge Ayrton in 1994, and who knows how the new order of the 90's and early 00's would have compared to Senna.
Ultimately, I can see you are someone that will remain unconvinced whatever I say. Believe it or not though, people who race and have a modicum of talent do actually also have computers connected to the internet, and are able to communicate via the medium of Pistonheads. I've not once suggested I'd be quicker than Dominik, but you could at least accept that perhaps someone else on here knows more about driving, the Nurburgring and lap times than you do....
Anyway. This is getting unnecessary and more critical of another drivers ability than intended!
Completely agree with you. Many 'Pro' racing drivers are not there because of talent.Accept that I do, in part, know what I'm talking about and that it is indeed possible that someone who's a racing driver doesn't have absolutely perfect driving technique. That's precisely why there's a variance in ability even at the Pro level. I for one, wouldn't think I'd automatically jump in any car and be the fastest person in it! I'd like to think I wouldn't be horribly embarrassed, but I'd appreciate that if I am beaten, there must be something I can do to improve (be it in my own technique or in the car). Maybe the steering technique does work for him, but I'd be monumentally surprised if he wasn't at least more consistent with two hands on the wheel, but as I said, I'm open to being proven wrong if there is indeed a genuine quantifiable reason why it's faster.
You mention Senna's throttle technique. Indeed it was unorthodox, but for good reason. It's generally accepted that the reason he developed this technique was due to the lag in the turbo engines of the 80s. Stabbing the throttle helped to keep the turbo spinning, thus resulting in less lag out of the corners. He wasn't unbeatable though, so maybe his reluctance to change didn't help. Schumacher had already started to serious challenge Ayrton in 1994, and who knows how the new order of the 90's and early 00's would have compared to Senna.
Ultimately, I can see you are someone that will remain unconvinced whatever I say. Believe it or not though, people who race and have a modicum of talent do actually also have computers connected to the internet, and are able to communicate via the medium of Pistonheads. I've not once suggested I'd be quicker than Dominik, but you could at least accept that perhaps someone else on here knows more about driving, the Nurburgring and lap times than you do....
Anyway. This is getting unnecessary and more critical of another drivers ability than intended!
Kawasicki said:
driverrob said:
The almost constant steering corrections on the limit 
Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
it's clearly a stable car...otherwise it wouldn't be quick.Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
driverrob said:
Kawasicki said:
driverrob said:
The almost constant steering corrections on the limit
Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
it's clearly a stable car...otherwise it wouldn't be quick.Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
driverrob said:
Kawasicki said:
driverrob said:
The almost constant steering corrections on the limit
Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
it's clearly a stable car...otherwise it wouldn't be quick.Showing, I suppose, the inherent instability of that rear wheel drive monster. Awesome driving skill. How did he even get in the car with balls that big?
I suppose I just think that the car looks stable!
)
Some good news and Bad News today...........
Friday Update: Today is our last day at the track. WOW, talk about emotional highs and lows. Since Dom and Mario were racing this weekend, Luca was in one car and we had a spare. After some due diligence, we found one of the fastest Ring drivers, Lance Arnold, who joined us in the second car. We also found 5 hours of track time, with a group that was renting the track for their club day. Both Luca and Lance were on track and Luca failed to come around the track. He had a tire failure at a high speed (left front) on the final straight. We put some fresh rubber on his car and sent him back out. Unfortunately, the next thing that happened was our own fault. In changing the differential fluid, the drain plug was only finger tightened and that slipped through the cracks. Oil leaked out until there was too little left in the diff and it broke. We were now down to one car. Rain was predicted for 1PM and our solo track time was 2PM. I cut a deal with the track days owner to let us go out at noon and we’d give him our 30 minutes at 2PM. We re-prepped Lance's car, put fresh tires on it and waited. He went out at 12 noon. On his first lap he turned a (wait for it......) 7:01.3. We were elated. We couldn't wait to see the time for his second lap. It was then that we were informed that there was a problem. Apparently, his left front tire (like Luca's) had a sidewall failure at about 160 mph while he was in a corner. He ALMOST saved it but the car brushed the left guard rail ever so lightly. At that speed, anything that upsets the car is bad, so it slid across the track and contacted the right guard rail. While it definitely wasn't the worst incident in the world, Vipers with broken parts are never pretty. The airbag went off and all of that (that's what happens when you run production cars). Lance was fine but bummed out because he felt the car was ready to best the 6:57 mark. He did the 7:01.3 on his FIRST lap.
I want to point out that the cost of all of the damage now falls on Bernie and Ben, who own the car. This is why I found it odd that some folks were saying that Viper Exchange would profit on selling these cars when we were done with the record runs. Any possible profits will be used to repair the car that contacted the armco. The gofundme donations will pay 1) the track for repair to the rail and 2) the owner of the track-day because we took up 1.5 of his hours instead of 1 and he asked that we compensate him, which is fair.
So, there you have it. Our big adventure to the Nurburgring comes to an end. We have not had a driver who feels that the car is not a mid 6:50's car. I think that we asked a bit much of the tires on this particular track. There's a reason it’s called "The Green Hell." Viper Nation, we did the best we could with what we had to work with. It's hard not being supported by the factory in any way. We did it with YOUR gofundme contributions, tires and funds by Kumho, spare engines by Prefix (fortunately we didn't need them), 2 complete and free cars from Viper Exchange and BJ Motors, and other generous donations by members of the Viper community. So many donations, that the only way to list those who gave more than $250 is on the poster, which we will start working on. I will try to write a post-script from the plane, on the way back to the states.
Again, thank you all and please know that the only thing that kept us apart from a 6:5x was time and money.
Friday Update: Today is our last day at the track. WOW, talk about emotional highs and lows. Since Dom and Mario were racing this weekend, Luca was in one car and we had a spare. After some due diligence, we found one of the fastest Ring drivers, Lance Arnold, who joined us in the second car. We also found 5 hours of track time, with a group that was renting the track for their club day. Both Luca and Lance were on track and Luca failed to come around the track. He had a tire failure at a high speed (left front) on the final straight. We put some fresh rubber on his car and sent him back out. Unfortunately, the next thing that happened was our own fault. In changing the differential fluid, the drain plug was only finger tightened and that slipped through the cracks. Oil leaked out until there was too little left in the diff and it broke. We were now down to one car. Rain was predicted for 1PM and our solo track time was 2PM. I cut a deal with the track days owner to let us go out at noon and we’d give him our 30 minutes at 2PM. We re-prepped Lance's car, put fresh tires on it and waited. He went out at 12 noon. On his first lap he turned a (wait for it......) 7:01.3. We were elated. We couldn't wait to see the time for his second lap. It was then that we were informed that there was a problem. Apparently, his left front tire (like Luca's) had a sidewall failure at about 160 mph while he was in a corner. He ALMOST saved it but the car brushed the left guard rail ever so lightly. At that speed, anything that upsets the car is bad, so it slid across the track and contacted the right guard rail. While it definitely wasn't the worst incident in the world, Vipers with broken parts are never pretty. The airbag went off and all of that (that's what happens when you run production cars). Lance was fine but bummed out because he felt the car was ready to best the 6:57 mark. He did the 7:01.3 on his FIRST lap.
I want to point out that the cost of all of the damage now falls on Bernie and Ben, who own the car. This is why I found it odd that some folks were saying that Viper Exchange would profit on selling these cars when we were done with the record runs. Any possible profits will be used to repair the car that contacted the armco. The gofundme donations will pay 1) the track for repair to the rail and 2) the owner of the track-day because we took up 1.5 of his hours instead of 1 and he asked that we compensate him, which is fair.
So, there you have it. Our big adventure to the Nurburgring comes to an end. We have not had a driver who feels that the car is not a mid 6:50's car. I think that we asked a bit much of the tires on this particular track. There's a reason it’s called "The Green Hell." Viper Nation, we did the best we could with what we had to work with. It's hard not being supported by the factory in any way. We did it with YOUR gofundme contributions, tires and funds by Kumho, spare engines by Prefix (fortunately we didn't need them), 2 complete and free cars from Viper Exchange and BJ Motors, and other generous donations by members of the Viper community. So many donations, that the only way to list those who gave more than $250 is on the poster, which we will start working on. I will try to write a post-script from the plane, on the way back to the states.
Again, thank you all and please know that the only thing that kept us apart from a 6:5x was time and money.
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