Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

[Wuzzle]

DapperDanMan said:

It is just PH background noise where everything new is shouted down and if you are interested in an EV you are a left wing Guardian reading snowflake.

None of the alleged problems in this thread cannot or has not been overcome. The main thrust of automotive research is moving to EV and I for one welcome it. It is a new and exciting market one which the UK could well exploit in the Brexit future ahead of us.

EVs aren't new?! They are a tried and failed technology.

It's hardly Left Wing to expect the Proles to spunk £100k+ on a battery powered car.

[anonymous-user]

Wuzzle said:

DapperDanMan said:

It is just PH background noise where everything new is shouted down and if you are interested in an EV you are a left wing Guardian reading snowflake.

None of the alleged problems in this thread cannot or has not been overcome. The main thrust of automotive research is moving to EV and I for one welcome it. It is a new and exciting market one which the UK could well exploit in the Brexit future ahead of us.

EVs aren't new?! They are a tried and failed technology.

It's hardly Left Wing to expect the Proles to spunk £100k+ on a battery powered car.

I bet you spent your days telling people that smart phones were never going to catch on in 2001 didn't you........

[SimonYorkshire]

pherlopolus said:

Home refuelling is such a positive for EV as it only costs £150 for the box, and the box is really unobtrusive, and takes 10 seconds of effort to refuel.

But realistically it's your only option unless you're prepared to wait hours on a forecourt. Anytime you exceed the small range you have to fill on a forecourt, which takes a long time. For an EV 'forecourt' could mean a supermarket carpark but this is irrelevant because the only supermarkets you visit are those close to your house and, besides, you cannot assume a supermarket 100 miles away has EV charging facilities.

pherlopolus said:

When I had a "play" car I would store 10l of fuel at home, and refuel the 10l tin with my other car. It's low cost and minimal size, and it allowed me to refuel the toy at home. Ok it was only about 50 miles of range, but that was enough for 98% of the journeys I did in it, any more and I went through the rigmarole of visiting a petrol station. Would it have been useful to have a 300l tank at home - Yes, would it have been acceptable - no.

Pouring/siphoning petrol into a car at home is more hassle and more dangerous than charging an EV but it is also more dangerous than refilling an LPG car. I wonder if your point could be turned around - If you preferred to fill the toy at home by pouring/siphoning, was that because the toy had little range and the forecourt was far enough away to eat well into that range? If the toy car could hold 30 litres of fuel would you still have filled at home by pouring/siphoning or would you have taken the toy to the forecourt. Of course this assumes the toy was an actual car, not a toy in the usual literal sense lol. I take a can to to fill with petrol to the forecourt during summer too - fuel to be used to fill the petrol lawnmower, but if the petrol lawnmower was as big as the tractor type, road legal and had a decent sized petrol tank I would take the tractor mower to the forecourt...

pherlopolus said:

And to say that charging infrastructure is not currently available is plainly untrue, it just doesn't meet your artificial requirement of refilling in the time it takes to refuel an ICE car. I've already answered that one.

I don't see chargers at almost all of the forecourts I visit, and I do get around, and I have been looking. I don't see chargers at supermarkets I visit - of course like everyone else I tend to use only the supermarkets which are within around 5 miles of me but recently I've been to other 'megastore' supermarkets when visiting relatives etc and I haven't seen any chargers in those carpparks either. I've been looking because I know a lot of people don't notice LPG pumps yet LPG pumps are on about 1 in 7 forecourts (so without looking perhaps I could have just disregarded/missed EV chargers). There are other LPG pumps at sites such as gas depots, even standalone LPG refuelling sites in cities etc where some bloke(\s) put in a coupe of bulk gas tanks... well used by taxi drivers. Every LPG pump is capable of refuelling an LPG tank to the vehicle's max range on LPG in minutes and every petrol pump is capable of refuelling a petrol tank to it's max range in minutes.

Do my requirements exceed being able to refuel for greater than 100 mile range? Definitely. Do my requirements exceed refuelling times that take 40mins per 100 miles? Definitely, even though most of my journeys are sub 100 miles and most are sub 5 miles. Does ability to refuel at home for next to nothing make up for not being able to meet those other requirements? No, not to me. Who uses their car solely for a 20 mile commute and would be happy to have a car that could do that just fine but couldn't meet those other requirements? I'd say not as many people as some here believe.

pherlopolus said:

20k vs 2k is more of an argument, there arn't any 2k EV's yet (not even twizy's which annoys me.)

I agree 20K vs 2K is an even bigger argument.
But then we can add this into the mix - EV batteries, you might say, don't ware out at anything like the rate I might say. So, if an EV battery cost £10k when new, and is still nearly as good as new after 10 years, is that battery still going to be worth a significant fraction of £10k after 10 years? How are EVs effected by depreciation as a whole / batteries specifically effected by depreciation? If a new vastly cheaper vastly better battery is invented in the meantime how does this effect things? Now look into ways 'effect things' could mean the second hand market. A new EV today has todays tech expensive batteries, this car might be sold after 5 years. Next year if a better battery goes into the same model car and this car is sold in 5 years the oldest car could be worth much less than the car that is just one year younger, the seller of the older car suffered devaluation that he did not anticipate when he bought the new car. In comparison you know where you stand with an ice.

[London424]

Max_Torque said:

Wuzzle said:

DapperDanMan said:

It is just PH background noise where everything new is shouted down and if you are interested in an EV you are a left wing Guardian reading snowflake.

None of the alleged problems in this thread cannot or has not been overcome. The main thrust of automotive research is moving to EV and I for one welcome it. It is a new and exciting market one which the UK could well exploit in the Brexit future ahead of us.

EVs aren't new?! They are a tried and failed technology.

It's hardly Left Wing to expect the Proles to spunk £100k+ on a battery powered car.

I bet you spent your days telling people that smart phones were never going to catch on in 2001 didn't you........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df-9UNfEnCk

[pherlopolus]

SimonYorkshire said:

SNIPPED

Evidence for the existing charging infrastructure https://www.zap-map.com/live/ - clue they arn't just on forecourts or supermarkets, and the map shows the ones that are live. so you do your research before you travel. And you don't have an EV so of course you don't see them. - I will ignore the refuelling speed again, as I have already responded, and it's generally irrelevant even with todays technology, and it's only going to get better.

Your requirements (like mine, I drive a diesel remember) mean that CURRENTLY an EV isn't viable for me. I think that will change - 150 -200 mile range with a 1 hour charge time when not at home is all I ask for (oh and a big family car wrapped round it)

My toy car (a beach buggy) had a 40l tank, but I only needed 10l at a time so that's all I put in. It generally took me longer than a few minutes to refuel at forecourts due to all the questions and conversations with interesting/ed people it generated, it was a few years ago, and I actually considered an EV conversion but they tech wasn't ready. It is now, if I still had it I probably would.

[DapperDanMan]

Wuzzle said:

DapperDanMan said:

It is just PH background noise where everything new is shouted down and if you are interested in an EV you are a left wing Guardian reading snowflake.

None of the alleged problems in this thread cannot or has not been overcome. The main thrust of automotive research is moving to EV and I for one welcome it. It is a new and exciting market one which the UK could well exploit in the Brexit future ahead of us.

EVs aren't new?! They are a tried and failed technology.

It's hardly Left Wing to expect the Proles to spunk £100k+ on a battery powered car.

Of course EV have been around since the dawn of the petrol engined car and in various guises over the years such as milk floats. I would however suggest that the current range of vehicles are new in the sense that they have advanced power management, new designs of battery and have charging networks available to them.They are also designs (most of them) that people may actually want to be seen in and some are even aspirational.

As for failure I think that was more to do with the manufacturers than it was the cars.

Who needs to spend £100K+ on an EV? You can spend that but you don't have to.

[SimonYorkshire]

pherlopolus said:

Evidence for the existing charging infrastructure https://www.zap-map.com/live/ - clue they arn't just on forecourts or supermarkets, and the map shows the ones that are live. so you do your research before you travel. And you don't have an EV so of course you don't see them. - I will ignore the refuelling speed again, as I have already responded, and it's generally irrelevant even with todays technology, and it's only going to get better.

Your requirements (like mine, I drive a diesel remember) mean that CURRENTLY an EV isn't viable for me. I think that will change - 150 -200 mile range with a 1 hour charge time when not at home is all I ask for (oh and a big family car wrapped round it)

My toy car (a beach buggy) had a 40l tank, but I only needed 10l at a time so that's all I put in. It generally took me longer than a few minutes to refuel at forecourts due to all the questions and conversations with interesting/ed people it generated, it was a few years ago, and I actually considered an EV conversion but they tech wasn't ready. It is now, if I still had it I probably would.

I didn't mean to imply that charging points are only on forecourts and at supermarkets, I know they can be installed elsewhere and are installed elsewhere. A few posts ago I made the point that if you were on a journey that exceeded EV range you probably wouldn't plan on using a charging point in some gym or restaurant car park unless that place was your destination, because the number of chargers at each such place is likely to be small compared to number of chargers on a forecourt (and perhaps supermarket). Number of chargers might not be as big an issue if charge time was quicker and (next pointed granted possibly a mute point) it was less likely that someone would just leave their car parked in an EV charging bay. I suggest that even the owner of an EV that has finished charging is unlikely to nip outside to move his car in the middle of a meal, but anyway an EV won't have finished charging during the time it takes to eat a meal.

Your beach buggy situation was an unusual one, I wasn't expecting that! I do see your point in that situation and I expect you'll see my points.

[Cold]

Model 3 gets an 'average' rating as new tech dents auto reliability.

Reuters article said:

Consumer Reports magazine said its survey of 640,000 vehicles showed that all-new vehicles or models with newly updated technology are more likely than older models to have a wonky engine, a jerky transmission, or high-tech features that fail outright.
Toyota placed first in the magazine’s ranking with the most reliable vehicles on average. Tesla ranked 21st on the list, out of 27.

[Hugo a Gogo]

how to put out a burning Tesla

https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-...

that'd be nice in the channel tunnel

[Cold]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I'm just the messenger, not the writer.

But I suppose it could be summed up that they are expensive and a bit st, but fanatics will defend them to the end of the charging cable and back. The similarities with Apple are tangible.

[Gary C]

pherlopolus said:

No 2k cars (not even twizy's which annoys me.)

Me too.

I want to get one and stick a fireblade engine in one

[SimonYorkshire]

SimonYorkshire said:

eal, but anyway an EV won't have finished charging during the time it takes to eat a meal.

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Except more reasonable people who say they'd have an EV if only they got better like Pherlopolous agree with me.

You've done it again - On the one hand quote 30min charge to 80% capacity - this will be in the case of a car with small range, on a supercharger if you can find one. On the other hand quote Teslas with 300 mile range. The Tesla with 300 mile range will not charge to 80% in 30 mins.

You know damn well that someone eating a meal at a restaurant, or watching a film at a cinema, or doing some Xmas shopping, will not return to shift their car after 30mins. Not even if the car could be charged in 30mins.

Rangd, charging time, number of chargers that are capable of fast charge rates mean EVs are currently all but relegated to a short distance commute and doing a bit of local shopping, that kind of thing.

I did not say I didn't like them. I have never said I like to hear engine noise or mess about with engines like some people have. I like silent cars, which EVs do well. But a car is less of a car if it can't do what a car should be able to do.

Poor poor poor Tinrobot who can't get the above points and points I made said again in recent posts into his head. Even Pherlopolus iwon't buy an EV until they've improved.

[Cold]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

It says they break a lot and are 21st out of 27 in a reliability survey. What did I miss?

[RobDickinson]

Cold said:

Model 3 gets an 'average' rating as new tech dents auto reliability.

Reuters article said:

Consumer Reports magazine said its survey of 640,000 vehicles showed that all-new vehicles or models with newly updated technology are more likely than older models to have a wonky engine, a jerky transmission, or high-tech features that fail outright.
Toyota placed first in the magazine’s ranking with the most reliable vehicles on average. Tesla ranked 21st on the list, out of 27.

Reuters article said:

Model 3 sedan is likely to have “average” reliability despite production snags because it uses older technology rather than newer innovations that are causing problems for automakers, Consumer Reports magazine said on Thursday.

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I dont get that article at all makes no sense.

Model S now has above average reliability, model 3 is based on 'old tech' that being the model s (which it really isnt anyhow) they argue cars built on known older tech are more reliable but the model 3 is going to be 'average'. Even though they state EVs are simpler and more reliable.

Was the writer drunk?

[pherlopolus]

Gary C said:

Me too.

I want to get one and stick a fireblade engine in one

You can remap the electrics too much more fun!

[Gary C]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Don't get that.

Yes ev's can do what most people need day to day. Yes ev's will get better, yes charging will be possible country wide.

Yes, ev's will maintain the income into my pension (esi pension)

But at the moment, there is not an ev out there that is as flexible as a ice car, is there ?

[kambites]

Gary C said:

But at the moment, there is not an ev out there that is as flexible as a ice car, is there ?

That depends on how you use your car.

For me the convenience of not having to go to a petrol station every three hundred miles would easily outweigh the inconvenience of having to stop to charge for half an hour every time I do 200 mile+ trips because the former happens every couple of weeks, the latter happens once every couple of years.

Obviously the opposite will be true for some people.

[SimonYorkshire]

SimonYorkshire said:

You've done it again - On the one hand quote 30min charge to 80% capacity - this will be in the case of a car with small range, on a supercharger if you can find one.

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

SimonYorkshire said:

On the other hand quote Teslas with 300 mile range. The Tesla with 300 mile range will not charge to 80% in 30 mins.

Damn. Got me. The CURRENT rate is about 170 miles in 30 minutes.

SimonYorkshire said:

You know damn well that someone eating a meal at a restaurant, or watching a film at a cinema, or doing some Xmas shopping, will not return to shift their car after 30mins. Not even if the car could be charged in 30mins.

Well let's call the whole thing off then. hahahaha. Can you see how stupid you sound? As I say we already have very simple solutions to this "problem".

SimonYorkshire said:

But a car is less of a car if it can't do what a car should be able to do.

But an EV can ALREADY do more. Glass half full see? Sure it cannot do what a car will actually do in perhaps 5% of cases (loads of people have been through the facts with you despite your best efforts to deflect).

Sure EVs have a few issues but nothing that won't be solved quickly. That is the difference between you and me. One of us can see the big picture and works with facts. You on the hand.....

Never mind - sure someone who can't do basic math will keep buying LPG conversions for a couple of years yet.

You've never had a problem, to other people EV implications will be a problem or at least an inconvenience.

Once again quoting Tesla charge times and still exaggerating charge rates. You just claimed current charge time (and I'll be kind and assume you meant for for a Tesla although you didn't say so) is 170 miles from a 30 minute charge. Let's check some figures - The Tesla uses a minimum of about 250wh per mile so to charge for 170 mile range in 30 minutes the charger would have to be 85kw. Only possible on a Tesla supercharger - even Teslas won't be finding such charger as often as they find a 50kw charger and only Teslas can use Tesla superchargers. So when you say 'current rate', what you actually mean is current rate for Tesla drivers who are lucky enough to pass one of the few Tesla superchargers without having to spend more time out of a journey diverting to such supercharger. You won't be charging a Leaf to 170 mile range in 30 mins, firstly because a Leaf doesn't have 170 mile range, secondly because it's battery couldn't accept that rate of charge, thirdly because such superchargers are only for use by Teslas. So yes I have got you.

What's stupid about my point regards people won't return to shift a car away from a charger when they're eating a meal, watching a film in a cinema or our shopping? For anyone who bought an EV and expected to be able to charge at (say) some shopping centre or restaurant only to find all (few) EV charging bays full, I agree they might wish they'd called off buying the EV.

If my car couldn't do what I wanted it to do 5% of the time I'd buy another car that could do what I wanted it to do 100% of the time. Another way of looking at it is that my car parked outside meets this stipulation 100% of the time, if I bought an EV it would meat this stipulation 0% of the time - My car gives me the freedom to go wherever I want in it 100% of the time, maybe I'll have a drive out to the lakes over the weekend, maybe not, but I don't have to worry about range or charging either way. Read a pun into this if you will, the pun only further reinforces my point.

If EVs have a few problems, how do you know they will be solved quickly? What is the sense of buying a today spec EV 'with problems' if you think in the near future those problems will disappear? If you buy a today spec EV with a £10k battery will the manufacturer replace the battery free of charge with a battery with tomorrow's spec? I on the other hand run a big comfy ice car, it has range of 300 miles on petrol, further range of 300 (600 if I fit the second easily removable tank) miles on LPG (so 900 miles total range), I can refuel it with petrol or LPG in minutes for this type of range, I am losing nothing in depreciation, total cost of ownership is lower than running a Leaf that has 100 mile range that takes all night to charge at home and would leave me waiting at some forecourt for several hours to charge at least every 100 miles if I dared use it for a weekend trip out, if it had enough seats, it it would pull my boat without restricting range to 40 miles.

I can imagine a Leaf owner planning a trip out. 100 Miles of mixed motorway / A road / B road driving, probably 2 hours in an ice in total depending on the M / A / B mix. A bit longer than that in an EV because for starters you'll be limiting speed to 50mph on the motorway to avoid flattening the battery and having to call the AA to recover you. The night before the trip you'll be researching charge points along (more likely not along but hopefully near) the ideal route. Crossing fingers and wondering if any other EVs will be charging on those charge points when you arrive at them. Not knowing if any charger will be available at the destination so you will be stopping on the way to the destination, you just don't know how long for. And unless you do find a charger at the destination, and unless any charger you find at the destination is a very fast one you know you'll have to stop to charge on the way home too. Now let's look at where these chargers on/near your route are likely to be. Are they on petrol station forecourts? Do you need to divert from your route (which in an ice would probably avoid town centres) to drive into town centres to park up at maybe some supermarket / cinema / restaurant / gym for a few hours? If you would previously have avoided the town centre in an ice (perhaps thanks to some new relief road) does the EV mean you now have to enter the town centre? None of these prospects sell EVs to me at all, neither will they help sell EVs to the masses. You know these prospects are true at the moment, the masses will wait until they are solved and only then will a fraction of them buy a new EV - the second hand market is far bigger than the new market and one of the reasons for that is most people don't want to spend new car type money on a new car. Most people will also recognise the fact that vehicle running costs involve more than just the cost of fuel, they know that if their current car is depreciating at £20 per week and costs £20 per week in petrol they will be better off keeping their current car than buying a new one that costs nothing in fuel but depreciates at £40 per week because keeping their old car doesn't involve spending £20k on a new car. They also won't want to blow close to new car type money on a close to new EV that has today's EV issues. If the issues with EVs and charging points are solved in 5 years (which doesn't seem likely), EVs will still be a small minority in 10 years. Then, if EVs are bigger in 10 years, we'll see if any grid/generation issues start to slow further EV take-up - Picture a lot of EV drivers heading to the coast and using charge points on forecourts / gyms / cinemas etc on a Sunday just as millions of electric ovens are cooking Sunday roasts.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 20th October 10:29

[rscott]

SimonYorkshire said:

You've never had a problem, to other people EV implications will be a problem or at least an inconvenience.

Once again quoting Tesla charge times and still exaggerating charge rates. You just claimed current charge time (and I'll be kind and assume you meant for for a Tesla although you didn't say so) is 170 miles from a 30 minute charge. Let's check some figures - The Tesla uses a minimum of about 250wh per mile so to charge for 170 mile range in 30 minutes the charger would have to be 85kw. Only possible on a Tesla supercharger - even Teslas won't be finding such charger as often as they find a 50kw charger and only Teslas can use Tesla superchargers. So when you say 'current rate', what you actually mean is current rate for Tesla drivers who are lucky enough to pass one of the few Tesla superchargers without having to spend more time out of a journey diverting to such supercharger. You won't be charging a Leaf to 170 mile range in 30 mins, firstly because a Leaf doesn't have 170 mile range, secondly because it's battery couldn't accept that rate of charge, thirdly because such superchargers are only for use by Teslas. So yes I have got you.

What's stupid about my point regards people won't return to shift a car away from a charger when they're eating a meal, watching a film in a cinema or our shopping? For anyone who bought an EV and expected to be able to charge at (say) some shopping centre or restaurant only to find all (few) EV charging bays full, I agree they might wish they'd called off buying the EV.

If my car couldn't do what I wanted it to do 5% of the time I'd buy another car that could do what I wanted it to do 100% of the time. Another way of looking at it is that my car parked outside meets this stipulation 100% of the time, if I bought an EV it would meat this stipulation 0% of the time - My car gives me the freedom to go wherever I want in it 100% of the time, maybe I'll have a drive out to the lakes over the weekend, maybe not, but I don't have to worry about range or charging either way. Read a pun into this if you will, the pun only further reinforces my point.

If EVs have a few problems, how do you know they will be solved quickly? What is the sense of buying a today spec EV 'with problems' if you think in the near future those problems will disappear? If you buy a today spec EV with a £10k battery will the manufacturer replace the battery free of charge with a battery with tomorrow's spec? I on the other hand run a big comfy ice car, it has range of 300 miles on petrol, further range of 300 (600 if I fit the second easily removable tank) miles on LPG (so 900 miles total range), I can refuel it with petrol or LPG in minutes for this type of range, I am losing nothing in depreciation, total cost of ownership is lower than running a Leaf that has 100 mile range that takes all night to charge at home and would leave me waiting at some forecourt for several hours to charge at least every 100 miles if I dared use it for a weekend trip out, if it had enough seats, it it would pull my boat without restricting range to 40 miles.

I can imagine a Leaf owner planning a trip out. 100 Miles of mixed motorway / A road / B road driving, probably 2 hours in an ice in total depending on the M / A / B mix. A bit longer than that in an EV because for starters you'll be limiting speed to 50mph on the motorway to avoid flattening the battery and having to call the AA to recover you. The night before the trip you'll be researching charge points along (more likely not along but hopefully near) the ideal route. Crossing fingers and wondering if any other EVs will be charging on those charge points when you arrive at them. Not knowing if any charger will be available at the destination so you will be stopping on the way to the destination, you just don't know how long for. And unless you do find a charger at the destination, and unless any charger you find at the destination is a very fast one you know you'll have to stop to charge on the way home too. Now let's look at where these chargers on/near your route are likely to be. Are they on petrol station forecourts? Do you need to divert from your route (which in an ice would probably avoid town centres) to drive into town centres to park up at maybe some supermarket / cinema / restaurant / gym for a few hours? If you would previously have avoided the town centre in an ice (perhaps thanks to some new relief road) does the EV mean you now have to enter the town centre? None of these prospects sell EVs to me at all, neither will they help sell EVs to the masses. You know these prospects are true at the moment, the masses will wait until they are solved and only then will a fraction of them buy a new EV - the second hand market is far bigger than the new market and one of the reasons for that is most people don't want to spend new car type money on a new car. They also won't want to blow close to new car type money on a close to new EV that has today's EV issues. If the issues with EVs are solved in 5 years (which doesn't seem likely), EVs will still be a small minority in 10 years.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 20th October 10:17

I see the troll is still posting utter nonsense again. Let me point them out.

1. He claims TinRobot's charge time estimates and wrong, then admits they're correct.
2. Why would a Leaf owner worry about range on a 100 mile trip? The new one has a NEDC range of 235 miles.

As for the "OMG if everyone buys EVs no-one will be able to access the very few charging points I've seen" claim.. Here's a very simple concept for you - as demand for a service grows, sensible businesses expand to meet that demand. Probably not something you'll have to worry about as a niche product supplier.

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

I see the troll is still posting utter nonsense again. Let me point them out.

1. He claims TinRobot's charge time estimates and wrong, then admits they're correct.
2. Why would a Leaf owner worry about range on a 100 mile trip? The new one has a NEDC range of 235 miles.

As for the "OMG if everyone buys EVs no-one will be able to access the very few charging points I've seen" claim.. Here's a very simple concept for you - as demand for a service grows, sensible businesses expand to meet that demand. Probably not something you'll have to worry about as a niche product supplier.

No, Tinrobot's estimates are still wrong. Plus he still had to to flit between different model EVs to make one point (Tesla / Leaf). Even if the new Leaf (which he doesn't own) has range of 235 miles could be charged to 170 mile range in 30 mins, there are no none-Tesla chargers capable of doing so.

As for OMG - here's a very simple concept for you. Sure if EV numbers increase we will see more chargers. BUT if and when numbers of EVs on the road is high enough, if these chargers are going to be as useful as ice fuel filling points they will have the same troughs and peaks in use as ice filling points, i.e. we will see more people charging at them on the way to and from work and on a Sunday afternoon - This will have an impact on the electrical grid and generation, which even if you don't acknowledge as a problem the grid does acknowledge is a problem for the future.

I agree LPG is a niche and will remain a niche, EVs are also currently a niche, I'm not sure if you agree with that or not.
LPG doesn't imply long refuelling times or small range like EVs, LPG could expand to the point it wasn't a niche without strain on infrastructure or power generation... but those running on LPG and converting vehicles to be able to run on LPG wouldn't want LPG to become more than a niche, it it did become more of a niche the government would have to apply more duty to it. The government will have to tax EVs if they become more than a niche - then you'd have a relatively expensive relatively inflexible EV that cost just as much to run as a far more flexible ice car. LPG cars also have the ability to be refuelled at home, this is the only area where EVs might otherwise have claimed a point over ice cars debunked. But I digress, of course we're currently talking refuelling while out on the road unless true to form you'd prefer to change the subject?

If person A continually calls person B a troll when person B is not a troll it is person A that is doing the trolling. You don;t like me making points but you can't manage a convincing reply, this seemingly frustrates you and makes you resort to calling me a troll. Calling me a troll is a cop-out. If you think I'm a troll why don't you hit the report button and see if moderators think I'm a troll? In the meantime, you stop trolling.. I'm going to walk on your bridge regardless of whether you're a troll or not and I'm going to make valid points regardless of trolls frustrations / childish diversion tactics / people throwing their teddy out the cot.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 20th October 12:27