Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
To be fair, there is a £2.5M fund to install on street chargers in areas identified as having a demand.
This fund is enough to provide around 330 charge points.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/travel/electri...
The issue will be stopping people hogging these charge points overnight. Ideally it'd need 5-10 charge leads and cycle through so all the connected cars get some juice overnight.
This fund is enough to provide around 330 charge points.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/travel/electri...
The issue will be stopping people hogging these charge points overnight. Ideally it'd need 5-10 charge leads and cycle through so all the connected cars get some juice overnight.
Blaster72 said:
This fund is enough to provide around 330 charge points.
Not going to go very far when it comes to providing for the 30 million people who don't have a drive or garage. 
In the long run, if EVs are really going to completely replace ICEs, we need millions of charging points not hundreds.
sonnenschein3000 said:
IMO the best solution was this idea of a hydrogen otto-cycle engine, like what BMW did a few years ago with the Hydrogen 7 (7 series) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
Hydrogen is seen as a liquid battery in many ways, and this is because, in terms of chemistry, you need to put electrical energy into breaking up a H20 bond (water) and getting the hydrogen out. What you have essentially done is invested energy into that hydrogen. The hydrogen then gets transported to a local fuel station, and then a hydrogen combustion engine car driver fills his car up with hydrogen similar to as if it were a petrol, and then he can just use it as if it were a petrol. Its a proper engine that revs, has an exhaust noise etc., and only creates water as its sole emission.
This is the ideal solution for PH'ers in my opinion. Its good for the environment (provided that the electricity in the first place comes from a sustainable source), and there is almost no sacrifice of fun or enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that if a E63 AMG, or an M5, or an RS6 became hydrogen-combustion, nobody would complain.
5mpgHydrogen is seen as a liquid battery in many ways, and this is because, in terms of chemistry, you need to put electrical energy into breaking up a H20 bond (water) and getting the hydrogen out. What you have essentially done is invested energy into that hydrogen. The hydrogen then gets transported to a local fuel station, and then a hydrogen combustion engine car driver fills his car up with hydrogen similar to as if it were a petrol, and then he can just use it as if it were a petrol. Its a proper engine that revs, has an exhaust noise etc., and only creates water as its sole emission.
This is the ideal solution for PH'ers in my opinion. Its good for the environment (provided that the electricity in the first place comes from a sustainable source), and there is almost no sacrifice of fun or enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that if a E63 AMG, or an M5, or an RS6 became hydrogen-combustion, nobody would complain.
Fuel that completely evaporates in two weeks
The problem with hydrogen, is that while a Li-Ion battery/electric motor combination is about, what, 75% efficient; a hydrogen (by electrolysis)/otto-cycle combination is about 20% efficient. So you need to generate around four times as much electricity to make it work.
Plus you have the cost of compressing and transporting the stuff.
Hydrogen fuel cells are better, since they're far more efficient and lighter than an internal combustion engine, but even they are expensive and inefficient compared to a battery EV.
Plus you have the cost of compressing and transporting the stuff.
Hydrogen fuel cells are better, since they're far more efficient and lighter than an internal combustion engine, but even they are expensive and inefficient compared to a battery EV.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 6th August 18:24
Max_Torque said:
Yipper said:
Number of public electric-charging points in UK in 2017 = ~5k;
Number of petrol pumps in UK in 2017 = ~50k.
Average time to refill a petrol car = ~5mins;
Average time to refill an electric car = ~30mins (public) / ~300mins (home).
There is a long way to go yet.
Listen, i'm going to say it one more time an then i'm giving up:Number of petrol pumps in UK in 2017 = ~50k.
Average time to refill a petrol car = ~5mins;
Average time to refill an electric car = ~30mins (public) / ~300mins (home).
There is a long way to go yet.
YOU NEED PUBLIC PETROL PUMPS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FILL UP AT HOME
there, did you get that?
I've owned my EV for just over 11 months, and i've never yet had to use a public charger!
It takes 2-12 hours to recharge a car at home today. It is slow and takes ages. Not very convenient.
If every home and flat in the UK charges their car overnight, the electricity grid (as it stands right now and for the foreseeable future) will explode.
kambites said:
The problem with hydrogen, is that while a Li-Ion battery/electric motor combination is about, what, 75% efficient; a hydrogen (by electrolysis)/otto-cycle combination is about 20% efficient. So you need to generate around four times as much electricity to make it work.
Plus you have the cost of compressing and transporting the stuff.
Hydrogen fuel cells are better, since they're far more efficient and lighter than an internal combustion engine, but even they are expensive and inefficient compared to a battery EV.
Indeed, and we are seeing EV's fairly often in the wild now, cant say I have ever seen a Hydrogen powered car.Plus you have the cost of compressing and transporting the stuff.
Hydrogen fuel cells are better, since they're far more efficient and lighter than an internal combustion engine, but even they are expensive and inefficient compared to a battery EV.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 6th August 18:24
EV's currently wont work for everyone, but the issues are being worked on, like IC engined cars used to need a Decoke every 20k or sooner, engines that wouldnt see 50k without a full rebuild, comparatively little power, only four gears, points that used to adjusting, were pretty poor on fuel, didnt want to start on cold/wet mornings etc. That is all still fairly recent and look where we are in comparison now, and that is just engine tech, every year, improvements.
I cant see car companies developing IC tech much further now, it is fit for purpose, about as good as it can get, electric motors dont really change and dont need to, they are compact, powerful, silent and mercilessly efficient, so, you have all these bods working on charging and battery tech, there may not be a quantum leap in range and charge time but improvements will come and we will hit a tipping point where the average Joe's head is turned and he/she realises the downsides are either gone or minimal.
If you could charge in say 10 mins for 300 miles range at a comparable price to an IC car, with plenty of sites to get a charge then I think that is where most could manage just fine.
0ddball said:
lee_fr200 said:
Ppl will head more into hybrids or electric when you get great range in a great car for not much money! Imagine been able to buy the tesla model s for say 35-40k
35-40k, not much money? Have a day off. There are about 6 people in the company I work for who will ever buy a 40k car and they are owners/directors.Meanwhile back in the real world, when regular Joe's can get into a 5 year old one for £5k, and charge points are built into kerbstones, they will start to become a real alternative to the masses.
4 cars in our household
Caterham £8k
TVR £8k
Suzuki £8k
Volvo £800
Never paid anything like £35k for a car and can't see m ever being able to afford or justify that cost.
Great replies, it would appear that at the moment there are not that many EVs on the road so many charging points are empty, which will make EV look attractive but a few people I know buying will equate thouroughout the country a lot more sales making the few charging points full and waiting for 2 or 3 cars before you to charge will not be acceptable by many we can't que for 5 minutes in a supermarket never mind 2 hours for a charge before you can even leave the car to do what you can do while waiting for a charge.
Personally I don't think the electric car will be the future I think this is a small stop gap before the next big thing. It's just a little to inconvenient for everybody.
All EVs will also need a new battery maybe every year 5 years and this is not going to be cheap and maybe a way for the government to claw back some much needed tax. I have seen some batteries for the Toyotas up at around £4500. This will surely kill the future resale.
I am not against electric as I have got a drive way and I don't do many miles but for that reason I drive a 4.2 supercharged car, it problally cost me about £2000 a years on fuel and road tax but like many on this board I like cars, it's my "thing" It's what I spend my money on
All only my opinion.
Personally I don't think the electric car will be the future I think this is a small stop gap before the next big thing. It's just a little to inconvenient for everybody.
All EVs will also need a new battery maybe every year 5 years and this is not going to be cheap and maybe a way for the government to claw back some much needed tax. I have seen some batteries for the Toyotas up at around £4500. This will surely kill the future resale.
I am not against electric as I have got a drive way and I don't do many miles but for that reason I drive a 4.2 supercharged car, it problally cost me about £2000 a years on fuel and road tax but like many on this board I like cars, it's my "thing" It's what I spend my money on
All only my opinion.
Skyedriver said:
0ddball said:
lee_fr200 said:
Ppl will head more into hybrids or electric when you get great range in a great car for not much money! Imagine been able to buy the tesla model s for say 35-40k
35-40k, not much money? Have a day off. There are about 6 people in the company I work for who will ever buy a 40k car and they are owners/directors.Meanwhile back in the real world, when regular Joe's can get into a 5 year old one for £5k, and charge points are built into kerbstones, they will start to become a real alternative to the masses.
4 cars in our household
Caterham £8k
TVR £8k
Suzuki £8k
Volvo £800
Never paid anything like £35k for a car and can't see m ever being able to afford or justify that cost.
With EVs becoming more and more popular 2nd hand and new prices will come down and although i hate to say, a 4car household will be a thing of the past in the future!
e8_pack said:
sonnenschein3000 said:
IMO the best solution was this idea of a hydrogen otto-cycle engine, like what BMW did a few years ago with the Hydrogen 7 (7 series) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7
Hydrogen is seen as a liquid battery in many ways, and this is because, in terms of chemistry, you need to put electrical energy into breaking up a H20 bond (water) and getting the hydrogen out. What you have essentially done is invested energy into that hydrogen. The hydrogen then gets transported to a local fuel station, and then a hydrogen combustion engine car driver fills his car up with hydrogen similar to as if it were a petrol, and then he can just use it as if it were a petrol. Its a proper engine that revs, has an exhaust noise etc., and only creates water as its sole emission.
This is the ideal solution for PH'ers in my opinion. Its good for the environment (provided that the electricity in the first place comes from a sustainable source), and there is almost no sacrifice of fun or enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that if a E63 AMG, or an M5, or an RS6 became hydrogen-combustion, nobody would complain.
5mpgHydrogen is seen as a liquid battery in many ways, and this is because, in terms of chemistry, you need to put electrical energy into breaking up a H20 bond (water) and getting the hydrogen out. What you have essentially done is invested energy into that hydrogen. The hydrogen then gets transported to a local fuel station, and then a hydrogen combustion engine car driver fills his car up with hydrogen similar to as if it were a petrol, and then he can just use it as if it were a petrol. Its a proper engine that revs, has an exhaust noise etc., and only creates water as its sole emission.
This is the ideal solution for PH'ers in my opinion. Its good for the environment (provided that the electricity in the first place comes from a sustainable source), and there is almost no sacrifice of fun or enjoyment. I'm pretty sure that if a E63 AMG, or an M5, or an RS6 became hydrogen-combustion, nobody would complain.
Fuel that completely evaporates in two weeks
Skyedriver said:
Exactly this
4 cars in our household
Caterham £8k
TVR £8k
Suzuki £8k
Volvo £800
Never paid anything like £35k for a car and can't see m ever being able to afford or justify that cost.
It cant exactly be motoring on a shoestring running 4 cars- all that tax, insurance, mots, repairs/servicing!!4 cars in our household
Caterham £8k
TVR £8k
Suzuki £8k
Volvo £800
Never paid anything like £35k for a car and can't see m ever being able to afford or justify that cost.
Of course BMW were interested in hydrogen.... It uses an IC engine and thus satisfies the requirement to have servicing and keeps the drip feeding back to the manufacturer.
Its a red herring.
We need to get away from engines. to move to a more suitable form of energy utilisation. Electricity is the way forward, if done right its clean and pollution free, we can even generate it from wind solar and wave. what is there not to like.
batteries are developing were cracking the construction and technology behind energy storage, even super capacitors are being developed that can store the required amounts of energy.
If they design a way to provide rapid energy transfer into a battery that allows even 50 miles a minute transfer then its cracked.
Whos says that we cant design an energy storage system that charges up over the period of a few hours at our house either solar wind or what ever but it stores a chunk of energy that can then be transferred to the vehicle quickly over a period of minutes. were away working and return to the house and the energy is passed over to the vehicle. simply and effective. and your not sitting there waiting hours for the car to charge.
If were going to embrace electric power then we have to ignore all the attempts to try and keep an IC engine in the picture. No hybrids no hydrogen IC cars etc....
Its a red herring.
We need to get away from engines. to move to a more suitable form of energy utilisation. Electricity is the way forward, if done right its clean and pollution free, we can even generate it from wind solar and wave. what is there not to like.
batteries are developing were cracking the construction and technology behind energy storage, even super capacitors are being developed that can store the required amounts of energy.
If they design a way to provide rapid energy transfer into a battery that allows even 50 miles a minute transfer then its cracked.
Whos says that we cant design an energy storage system that charges up over the period of a few hours at our house either solar wind or what ever but it stores a chunk of energy that can then be transferred to the vehicle quickly over a period of minutes. were away working and return to the house and the energy is passed over to the vehicle. simply and effective. and your not sitting there waiting hours for the car to charge.
If were going to embrace electric power then we have to ignore all the attempts to try and keep an IC engine in the picture. No hybrids no hydrogen IC cars etc....
Yipper said:
Number of public electric-charging points in UK in 2017 = ~5k;
Number of petrol pumps in UK in 2017 = ~50k.
Average time to refill a petrol car = ~5mins;
Average time to refill an electric car = ~30mins (public) / ~300mins (home).
There is a long way to go yet.
And you won't get there quickly in an EV...Number of petrol pumps in UK in 2017 = ~50k.
Average time to refill a petrol car = ~5mins;
Average time to refill an electric car = ~30mins (public) / ~300mins (home).
There is a long way to go yet.
Lancerevo said:
All EVs will also need a new battery maybe every year 5 years
it's got to be said, there's nothing like an "EV" thread to bring out the classic internet myths. (like that one ^^^)So while the internet experts claim:
"There's not enough lithium in the world"
"Batteries are more polluting than oil extraction and refining"
"If you go over 55 mph, your EV goes flat immediately"
"So much as scratch your EV and it bursts into flames"
"I need to do a million miles a day so i can't have an EV"
"There's not enough chargers"
"The national grid won't be able to cope"
"Oil companies won't let it happen"
"EV's are too heavy, so they can't get good economy"
"There's not enough rare earth elements in the world to make all those magnets"
But you know what, i don't care! I, and many other extremely smart and well backed engineers like me are going to go ahead and revolutionise the passenger car segment anyway ;-)
(remember, the UKs first mobile phone call was made in 1985, the commercial digital network was started in 1992, and yet, just 8 years later, 76% of the UK adult population had a mobile phone. That's 15 years, from nothing, to what we have today and take for granted. By comparison, the governments 2040 date to eradicate the pure ICE In the uk passenger car market seems pretty easy)
I don't understand why people think the infrastructure of charging points will be an issue?
Mobile phone infrastructure, takeaway food chains, Aldi, Liddle, Supermarket petrol stations, smart motorways, chip and pin and so on.
If there's an obvious and ongoing revenue stream, then the financial and political muscle will enable growth of the infrastructure.
And the technology, particularly batteries. There are billions of mobile debives needing battery tech. Unlike devlopmebt of IC engines, advances in battery tech can be amortised over billions more units than IC tech ever could be. This creates both demand and motivation to accelerate and accelerate the development of tech.
The bottleneck looks like power generation.
Mobile phone infrastructure, takeaway food chains, Aldi, Liddle, Supermarket petrol stations, smart motorways, chip and pin and so on.
If there's an obvious and ongoing revenue stream, then the financial and political muscle will enable growth of the infrastructure.
And the technology, particularly batteries. There are billions of mobile debives needing battery tech. Unlike devlopmebt of IC engines, advances in battery tech can be amortised over billions more units than IC tech ever could be. This creates both demand and motivation to accelerate and accelerate the development of tech.
The bottleneck looks like power generation.
janesmith1950 said:
I don't understand why people think the infrastructure of charging points will be an issue?
Mobile phone infrastructure, takeaway food chains, Aldi, Liddle, Supermarket petrol stations, smart motorways, chip and pin and so on.
I sometimes see 4 cars queueing at every petrol pump.Mobile phone infrastructure, takeaway food chains, Aldi, Liddle, Supermarket petrol stations, smart motorways, chip and pin and so on.
If these were electric cars and charging takes 30 minutes, I would have to wait two hours before I could plug mine in, then wait another 30 minutes to half charge the battery.
I could have driven from Sheffield to Heathriow in that time.
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