Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

[AH33]

PixelpeepS3 said:

Erm.... that's just a list of facts

[PixelpeepS3]

AH33 said:

Erm.... that's just a list of facts

Are you hungry? i was told i shouldn't feed you..?

[babatunde]

blearyeyedboy said:

Homer Jay said:

I would only have an electric car if I had a lot of money to spend in a Tesla.
And if I had that kind of money, I wouln't buy an electric car as I don't have to think about the petrol costs.

Get me a commute small electric for 10k and we'll see

So, when does your new Twizzy arrive?

no he drives a Hyundai i10

[e30m3Mark]

I have absolutely nothing against EV's and if they float your boat, more power to you. They're just not what I want for myself and my fear is that I lose that choice.

[PomBstard]

e30m3Mark said:

I have absolutely nothing against EV's and if they float your boat, more power to you. They're just not what I want for myself and my fear is that I lose that choice.

I think these are my thoughts also as, alongside the demise of the manual gearbox, the steady reduction in choice of powerplant is one of the main reasons I've become more interested in older cars.

Those that cite having an interesting car in the garage for weekends obviously have more time on their hands than me - I like having the interesting car, or some form of, with me whenever I can so I don't have to go looking for the moment, I can enjoy it if/when it happens.

[AH33]

PixelpeepS3 said:

Are you hungry? i was told i shouldn't feed you..?

Not trolling. It's a list of facts. Most people would read it and think "Yeah, Good point"

[e30m3Mark]

PomBstard said:

e30m3Mark said:

I have absolutely nothing against EV's and if they float your boat, more power to you. They're just not what I want for myself and my fear is that I lose that choice.

I think these are my thoughts also as, alongside the demise of the manual gearbox, the steady reduction in choice of powerplant is one of the main reasons I've become more interested in older cars.

Those that cite having an interesting car in the garage for weekends obviously have more time on their hands than me - I like having the interesting car, or some form of, with me whenever I can so I don't have to go looking for the moment, I can enjoy it if/when it happens.

I've never had much interest in cars newer than the early 90's. I like stuff I can have a go at fixing myself for a start.

Isn't running an old car actually far greener in the long run though anyway?

[PixelpeepS3]

AH33 said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

Are you hungry? i was told i shouldn't feed you..?

Not trolling. It's a list of facts. Most people would read it and think "Yeah, Good point"

Then 'most' people need to educate themselves instead of recycling the bullst and creating a generation of clueless Neophobics.

There... no more food now!

[danp]

Great column by Richard Porter in this month's Evo (#241) - "Admire a car that's fit for purpose? Then if you do most of your driving in an urban environment, Porter reckons you need a Nissan Leaf"

He's taken a short term lease on one and unsurprisingly finds it a brilliant companion around London. Despite not having off-road parking he manages with it's 100 miles or so range (yes he does have an ICE if required).

I can't find it online, so here are a couple of quotes:

"In fact, there's nothing short of a Rolls Phantom that can touch it for calm in the face of the urban crawl."

"It's smooth and balming and it makes you feel like you're beating the system because it's also very cheap to run, especially if you steal Jeremy Clarkson's electricity"

He also mentions how he enjoys smoking chancers in Focus ST's or low-spec Boxsters away from the lights. ;-)

Edited by danp on Monday 2nd October 12:48

[rscott]

Free Leaf charging anyone?


Electric car owners 'can drive for free by letting energy firms use battery'

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/e...

[SimonYorkshire]

rscott said:

Free Leaf charging anyone?


Electric car owners 'can drive for free by letting energy firms use battery'

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/e...

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

It costs £350 to £400 per year to charge a Leaf? A Leaf that does only 8000 miles per year?

£400 per year for 8000 miles is 5p per mile.

I pay about 50p per litre for LPG (£2.27 per gallon). At this price an ice car that does 45 mpg also costs 5p per mile to run.

There are plenty Leaf sized cars that are available now, cheaper than a Leaf, cheaper even including cost of LPG conversion, that will do more than 45mpg on LPG, that can be refuelled in minutes, that have range on LPG of maybe 300 miles and range on petrol of maybe 300 miles (600 mile total range).

Or, could pay more for a Leaf that has range of only 100 miles (if you drive very slowly - you won't get 100 mile range on the motorway), that takes 10 hours to charge up at home or 4 hours to charge at a fast charger if you're out on a trip... hopefully there will be a charger at your exact destination or some of your trip may involve an unplanned long walk or taxi ride from where the charger is to your exact destination, or hours may be spent charging at some service station(s) enroute. But with the Leaf you could effectively hire your battery out to an energy company, this will mean that sometimes when you plug the car in instead of the battery being charged the battery will be drained further... This doesn't seem a great idea considering the fully charged Leaf battery can only provide 100 miles range if you drive slowly even when fully charged. But some here will probably say average mileage is only 20 miles per day, so most people will be happy telling the energy firm to make as much use of their battery as they like as long as they leave the battery with a reserve of 20 miles range (at 25mph speed) for the time they plan on using the car. Or will the energy firm offer the facility with no provisos, in which case everyone will tell the energy firm they want the car to have a full battery as soon as possible after plugging it in.

[otolith]

I'm not seeing where in that article the mileage is stated?

Nissan says 2p/mile in electricity. Users report something more like 2.5p. Fleet cost estimates assuming paid for public charging are higher.

[Mr2Mike]

otolith said:

I'm not seeing where in that article the mileage is stated?

Nissan says 2p/mile in electricity. Users report something more like 2.5p. Fleet cost estimates assuming paid for public charging are higher.

Presumably the cost will be based on average annual mileage which is around 8000 miles IIRC.

[otolith]

Mr2Mike said:

Presumably the cost will be based on average annual mileage which is around 8000 miles IIRC.

From a vendor wishing to emphasise the amount of money people can save? Hmm...

[austinsmirk]

yr maths are wrong Simon.

45 mpg, 8000 miles is basically £1000 a year at £1.20 a litre. PLUS at least £140 PA in road tax. could be way more if you assume an old smokey rangie/lexus et al.

at worst I'm looking at £200 for 8000 miles of EV driving. I'm a grand up, PA before we even start. Chuck yr LPG conversion cost and ICE servicing into the mix, the figures get worse.

None of this matters, what one drives is personal choice. I'd rather have cycled to work today, but alas I've needed my diesel car (which costs me money to drive), while my wife drives around for nowt in the leaf.

I'll tell you what is becoming a pain though- having to go to a petrol station. The ease of home charging is something else- honestly if you never had to bother with the hassle of petrol stations, it would be wonderful.

[SimonYorkshire]

otolith said:

I'm not seeing where in that article the mileage is stated?

Nissan says 2p/mile in electricity. Users report something more like 2.5p. Fleet cost estimates assuming paid for public charging are higher.

Indeed. It doesn't seem any point in the article is explained in detail, but we can work out some of the implications for ourselves.

Such as, if Leafs cost 2.5p per mile to run (as you say) and the electricity for this costs £400 per year as the article says, then the Leaf must be doing 16000 miles per year, 44 miles per day (which is twice average mileage as pro EVers seem to like to point out). So let's say the owner works 9-5 and returns home from work having covered 44 miles, the Leaf battery is now at 56% charge and this is a peak time in electricity demand as many other people will be returning home from work around the same time sticking the oven and electric kettle on. So the battery is drained further by this battery sharing system and this draining extends while peak period continues which is for a few hours still yet. So for this system to work the owner must be prepared to do without use of the car for the evening, because the system obviously won't work if the car isn't plugged in. By late evening the car's range will probably be at it's lowest so it's just as well the owner doesn't want to use the car at this time... Then the car charges overnight but some of the battery charge is used again during the morning peak period, so the car never has even 100 mile range. The feedback system implies that the battery is cycled to a greater extent, while battery lifetime is affected by depth and frequency of cycling. If you had a £10000 battery in your car that would last (say) 7 years without the feedback system but would only last 3.5 years with the feedback system, we can work out that saving £1400 in electricity bills in 3.5 years would be far outweighed by the £5000 worth of extra wear on the battery during those 3.5 years.
Perhaps in future leased batteries will come with small print that says you cannot be part of such feedback system.

Another point of interest in the article is that it states 'the grid' reckon without this type of battery feedback system the rise in numbers of EVs will make 2 new nuclear power stations necessary, which is something else EV enthusiasts don't agree with.

Then we can read other 'fact sheets' published by 'the grid' and see they agree with me that for EVs to be seen to be as convenient as ice cars fast roadside charging will have to be available to the masses of EV users and they don't know how this situation could be met. EV enthusiasts in contrast seem to think most people will be content to charge at home overnight, seldom want to charge at a roadside, and even with limitations on charging speed and locations most will be content with 100 mile range (which may effectively be diminished further by feedback technology, so the only time during the day the car has 100 mile range is at some point while they're asleep because by the time they've had breakfast range will be diminished).

Of course, if the battery only cost £1000 the feedback system would work at a profit for the owner.
If the battery cost £10000 but could provide 1000 mile range, charge time wouldn't be as much of an issue. But now your average mileage cycles this battery to only a negligible degree so in your normal use the battery should last a very long time... unless you're part of a battery share scheme which in this new situation cycles the battery many times more deeply than you would.
Only if the battery cost about £5000, offered 300 mile range, lasted longer than 7 years and could be charged at the roadside in minutes would hidden costs be negligible and the vehicle as real world useful as an ice, and even this would be with the proviso that electricity used to charge EVs didn't start to attract road duty.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 10th October 15:27

[SimonYorkshire]

austinsmirk said:

yr maths are wrong Simon.

45 mpg, 8000 miles is basically £1000 a year at £1.20 a litre. PLUS at least £140 PA in road tax. could be way more if you assume an old smokey rangie/lexus et al.

at worst I'm looking at £200 for 8000 miles of EV driving. I'm a grand up, PA before we even start. Chuck yr LPG conversion cost and ICE servicing into the mix, the figures get worse.

None of this matters, what one drives is personal choice. I'd rather have cycled to work today, but alas I've needed my diesel car (which costs me money to drive), while my wife drives around for nowt in the leaf.

I'll tell you what is becoming a pain though- having to go to a petrol station. The ease of home charging is something else- honestly if you never had to bother with the hassle of petrol stations, it would be wonderful.

Nothing wrong with my maths mate, I said 8000 miles at 45mpg running on LPG that costs 50ppl.
In the real world you have got battery wear to consider and ultimately you'll have to pay for that whether you buy the battery outright or lease it.
Then there's the cost of the car in the first place. New cars are one thing, most of the cars on the road are older than 4 years old, the second hand market is far bigger than the new car market, it wouldn't make sense for anyone who is happy with their existing car to buy a new (EV) one if the idea is to save money. A 4 year old ice car that hasn't done starship miles should be in great shape, certainly it's range won't be diminished compared to when it was new, what shape is the 4 year old EV battery in if it has done similar miles to the ice car and how much for a new battery?
You say the Leaf costs nowt to run, but running costs are only part of cost of ownership. How does the cost of ownership compare to a similarly sized (say) 4 year old ice car that runs on LPG for instance, all things considered? Then factor in what convenience of range and charge/refuel time and availability of refill locations mean to a lot of people.
I also don't have to visit a forecourt, I can refill with LPG at a gas depot, or if I wanted I could have a gas storage tank at home and have gas delivered to the tank, refill my car at home... in minutes, at any time of day, with 300 mile range on the cheap stuff and a reserve of another 300 mile range on the more expensive stuff. But during the 300 miles on the cheap stuff I could refill in minutes on a forecourt or at a gas depot - you forfeit both the range and convenience of refill time with an EV.

Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 10th October 15:50

[InitialDave]

SimonYorkshire said:

The feedback system implies that the battery is cycled to a greater extent, while battery lifetime is affected by depth and frequency of cycling. If you had a £10000 battery in your car that would last (say) 7 years without the feedback system but would only last 3.5 years with the feedback system, we can work out that saving £1400 in electricity bills in 3.5 years would be far outweighed by the £5000 worth of extra wear on the battery during those 3.5 years.

Please show your supporting information here, including the specific chemistry of the batteries being discussed.

Or are you just pulling random numbers out of thin air?

[GT119]

InitialDave said:

SimonYorkshire said:

The feedback system implies that the battery is cycled to a greater extent, while battery lifetime is affected by depth and frequency of cycling. If you had a £10000 battery in your car that would last (say) 7 years without the feedback system but would only last 3.5 years with the feedback system, we can work out that saving £1400 in electricity bills in 3.5 years would be far outweighed by the £5000 worth of extra wear on the battery during those 3.5 years.

Please show your supporting information here, including the specific chemistry of the batteries being discussed.

Or are you just pulling random numbers out of thin air?

His numbers aren't realistic.
Also, Li-ion EV batteries are not worthless at end of life, they can either be recycled into new ones, or more interestingly, just re-deployed in static storage applications less sensitive to energy-density.

[SimonYorkshire]

InitialDave said:

SimonYorkshire said:

The feedback system implies that the battery is cycled to a greater extent, while battery lifetime is affected by depth and frequency of cycling. If you had a £10000 battery in your car that would last (say) 7 years without the feedback system but would only last 3.5 years with the feedback system, we can work out that saving £1400 in electricity bills in 3.5 years would be far outweighed by the £5000 worth of extra wear on the battery during those 3.5 years.

Please show your supporting information here, including the specific chemistry of the batteries being discussed.

Or are you just pulling random numbers out of thin air?

I think I'm pulling common sense, Dave. But if you want I'll link to info on battery life and how cycling effects it.. for whatever chemistry you reckon EVs have. Seems EV batteries use very similar chemistry to laptop and phone batteries anyway, packaging making for the biggest difference. I use my laptop every day, flatten it's battery maybe every other day, a battery tends to last about a year at that rate, pretty sure it would last much longer if I didn't use it as much.. As it happens I just changed the battery in this laptop, it's nearly as good as new now but it had got to the stage where battery life was about 10 minutes.