Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.

[Shelsleyf2]

I have read some though not all of the long thread. As a new owner of a 24kw leaf let me share my experience.
I average 50 miles a day Monday to Friday. I average 4.5 miles per kw. So my need is 11 kw per day plus losses on charging so 12kw. I can charge it at home using a 3.3 kw charger in 4 hours . There is a facility in the car to both charge and heat the car using a timer. I could plug the car in and it would timer charge from 1 am till 5am. The heater would work backwards from the end time set and using measures temps begin heating the cabin in order to achieve temp at end time The cost of 12 kw varies from as low 50p to £1.44 . So 1p per mile 2.88p per mile.
We are at the very beginning of the battery technology development. I have no idea where it will finish but I do know there will be progress and advancements. I am sure E.V. are not a one size fits all solution then neither is the ice or I wouldn't own a Golf R and an oil burning load lugging tow vehicle along with my EV. The EV replaced a Honda jazz cvt supermarket school run hack.
The luddites I am sure we're just as opinionated.

Just my 50p worth

[Pvapour]

Shelsleyf2 said:

Just my 50p worth

and just look how much 50p can get you!

[ZX10R NIN]

My 2003 CLK55 has a pre heater on it that you can set to come on before you come out to the car (all without turning on the engine) it's not something new.

I can only go by my experiences of my clients & FIL who is a Tesla owner as well as my own experience, the FIL selling up & going back to a petrol he doesn't feel the car was worth the money it's actual range is quite a bit lower than expected & overall he's not been impressed with the car.

Others love theirs so it's like all cars people need to find the cars that suit them best, there is no right or wrong answer as to which is best.

Environmentally they're not as green as people think but that's the price that has to be paid in order to offer an alternative.

[Pvapour]

ZX10R NIN said:

My 2003 CLK55 has a pre heater on it that you can set to come on before you come out to the car (all without turning on the engine) it's not something new.

I can only go by my experiences of my clients & FIL who is a Tesla owner as well as my own experience, the FIL selling up & going back to a petrol he doesn't feel the car was worth the money it's actual range is quite a bit lower than expected & overall he's not been impressed with the car.

Others love theirs so it's like all cars people need to find the cars that suit them best, there is no right or wrong answer as to which is best.

Environmentally they're not as green as people think but that's the price that has to be paid in order to offer an alternative.

Does it do the ac in the same way?

[Mr2Mike]

InitialDave said:

Laptop li-ions and EV li-ions are different chemistry. A laptop or phone battery's behaviour is in no way indicative of how an EV battery would behave.

I suggest reading something like this site, it seems to have a lot of information:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_o...

From batteryuniversity:

Lithium Cobalt Oxide (Laptop cells)
Cycle life: 500–1000, related to depth of discharge, load, temperature

Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide (Tesla EV)
Cycle life: 500 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)

Shelsleyf2 said:

We are at the very beginning of the battery technology development

If only. The Lithium-Ion cell was invented back in the late 70's and it has been under constant development since then.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Wednesday 11th October 13:05

[manracer]

austinsmirk said:

I'll tell you what is becoming a pain though- having to go to a petrol station. The ease of home charging is something else- honestly if you never had to bother with the hassle of petrol stations, it would be wonderful.

Ive been saying this ever since i had a 7 day test drive of a leaf back in 2014.

The idea of a full range each morning is bliss. No petrol station queues to fill (or queues to pay!!) no smelling of petrol, no drips of petrol on my shoes, no standing in the cold (during winter) etc etc.

For me, both cars in the household will be EV within 18 months. Cant wait!!

And yes i like my cars, but i also like: 3 holidays a year, constant house improvements, nice clothing etc etc and im not saying i cant have all that and a v8 rwd weekend toy, i might, but at the moment EV's are taking my attention.

[BigBen]

manracer said:

austinsmirk said:

I'll tell you what is becoming a pain though- having to go to a petrol station. The ease of home charging is something else- honestly if you never had to bother with the hassle of petrol stations, it would be wonderful.

Ive been saying this ever since i had a 7 day test drive of a leaf back in 2014.

The idea of a full range each morning is bliss. No petrol station queues to fill (or queues to pay!!) no smelling of petrol, no drips of petrol on my shoes, no standing in the cold (during winter) etc etc.

For me, both cars in the household will be EV within 18 months. Cant wait!!

And yes i like my cars, but i also like: 3 holidays a year, constant house improvements, nice clothing etc etc and im not saying i cant have all that and a v8 rwd weekend toy, i might, but at the moment EV's are taking my attention.

No one believes that not having to go to a petrol station is the best thing ever. Indeed I would not have done until I got an EV but now hate it.

Mind you the passion with which some have defended the whole forecourt experience on this thread makes me wonder if some posters have some sort of Alan Partridge / Michael the Geordie situation with their local garage attendant.....

[Shakermaker]

BigBen said:

No one believes that not having to go to a petrol station is the best thing ever. Indeed I would not have done until I got an EV but now hate it.

Mind you the passion with which some have defended the whole forecourt experience on this thread makes me wonder if some posters have some sort of Alan Partridge / Michael the Geordie situation with their local garage attendant.....

"Put it on my tab!"

[Pvapour]

http://environmentjournal.online/articles/rise-ele...

[stewjohnst]

BigBen said:

No one believes that not having to go to a petrol station is the best thing ever. Indeed I would not have done until I got an EV but now hate it.

Mind you the passion with which some have defended the whole forecourt experience on this thread makes me wonder if some posters have some sort of Alan Partridge / Michael the Geordie situation with their local garage attendant.....

I wouldn't go full EV...If I lose the visits to the petrol station, I'll lose my ability to smuggle a sneaky bar of chocolate/mint magnum and a car mag on the 'full tank' bill.

[SimonYorkshire]

Fleeting visit at this time before I go to bed.

Quotes from that 'battery university' website..

On June 15, 2016 at 4:20pm
Rondoc wrote:
Please include a chart showing lifetime of the cells when stored. Our experience is that the cells deteriorate even when unused. This has occurred with LIPO4 cells and also in Li CO cells ( used in the Leaf Nissan car ).
The storage life can be more important than the cycle life for applications with few cycles.
Our experience with the LiPO4 has been a 50% loss of capacity in 4 years wit ideal storage. The Leaf cells seem to have about a 30% loss in the same time frame. The storage lifetime is difficult to obtain from manufacturers.
On June 17, 2016 at 12:52am
RNMentropy wrote:
Nissan Leaf are NOT LiCO cells, they are LMO/LNO mix
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/product/liion_ev/
On June 17, 2016 at 9:59pm
Rondoc wrote:
Thanks for correction. My comments re storage are still valid. I have a 2011 Leaf and range is now only 45 miles. Only has 20,000 miles , this makes the cost per mile , assuming that i can buy a new pack for $6000 from Nissan, very expensive and sadly far higher than a gas car.

[Evanivitch]

Simon, are you seriously using forum posts as reference material?

[pherlopolus]

Early leafs had battery issues, the pain of early adopters.

[TooLateForAName]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Its clear enough. His business is going up in a puff of smoke.

[AW111]

Mr2Mike said:

Shelsleyf2 said:

We are at the very beginning of the battery technology development

If only. The Lithium-Ion cell was invented back in the late 70's and it has been under constant development since then.

True, but - I was involved in a couple of the early World Solar Challenge races.
In 1987 AGM lead-acid batteries were the best we could get at a reasonable price for a few kW hours.
In 1990 Silver-Zinc batteries were expensive but affordable (unlike 3 years earlier).
Now everything is Lithium varieties.

So while Lithium battery chemistry may have been around since the 70's, the batteries have only been affordable/practical for a decade or two.

It takes a long time to go from lab chemistry to a practical product.

[98elise]

AW111 said:

Mr2Mike said:

Shelsleyf2 said:

We are at the very beginning of the battery technology development

If only. The Lithium-Ion cell was invented back in the late 70's and it has been under constant development since then.

True, but - I was involved in a couple of the early World Solar Challenge races.
In 1987 AGM lead-acid batteries were the best we could get at a reasonable price for a few kW hours.
In 1990 Silver-Zinc batteries were expensive but affordable (unlike 3 years earlier).
Now everything is Lithium varieties.

So while Lithium battery chemistry may have been around since the 70's, the batteries have only been affordable/practical for a decade or two.

It takes a long time to go from lab chemistry to a practical product.

And here is the next generation of Toyota SCIB batteries which they say is a game changing advance, and will be commercially available available from 2019.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr03...

Range 320km on 6-minute ultra-rapid recharge.
Retains 90% of its initial capacity after 5,000 charge/discharge cycles

Simon will of course be along shortly to battery tech is not advancing at all as his laptop battery died once.

[Efbe]

98elise said:

AW111 said:

Mr2Mike said:

Shelsleyf2 said:

We are at the very beginning of the battery technology development

If only. The Lithium-Ion cell was invented back in the late 70's and it has been under constant development since then.

True, but - I was involved in a couple of the early World Solar Challenge races.
In 1987 AGM lead-acid batteries were the best we could get at a reasonable price for a few kW hours.
In 1990 Silver-Zinc batteries were expensive but affordable (unlike 3 years earlier).
Now everything is Lithium varieties.

So while Lithium battery chemistry may have been around since the 70's, the batteries have only been affordable/practical for a decade or two.

It takes a long time to go from lab chemistry to a practical product.

And here is the next generation of Toyota SCIB batteries which they say is a game changing advance, and will be commercially available available from 2019.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr03...

Range 320km on 6-minute ultra-rapid recharge.
Retains 90% of its initial capacity after 5,000 charge/discharge cycles

Simon will of course be along shortly to battery tech is not advancing at all as his laptop battery died once.

China & EV tech has been discussed on here, but what about Japan?

I would have thought given how technologically influenced their society is they would be well ahead of the curve with EV.

[pherlopolus]

Efbe said:

China & EV tech has been discussed on here, but what about Japan?

I would have thought given how technologically influenced their society is they would be well ahead of the curve with EV.

https://www.metering.com/features/analysis-ev-charging-stations-japan/

more EV charging stations than petrol ones...

[Tony427]

98elise said:

And here is the next generation of Toyota SCIB batteries which they say is a game changing advance, and will be commercially available available from 2019.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr03...

Range 320km on 6-minute ultra-rapid recharge.
Retains 90% of its initial capacity after 5,000 charge/discharge cycles

Simon will of course be along shortly to battery tech is not advancing at all as his laptop battery died once.

How much energy would have to be discharged into the battery within those 6 minutes to give the range required? Is that 320 km for a Tesla or a Leaf ?

And is that feasible from a charging equipment requirement and also from a network capability requirement?

Its no good saying there's a 6 minutes recharging capability if there's not enough juice or capability in the system to provide such a burst of power .

On the other hand, if there is that capability, and without battery degeneration, I can see forecourt owners jumping on this as a means to keep their business model going.

Cheers,

Tony

[GT119]

Tony427 said:

98elise said:

And here is the next generation of Toyota SCIB batteries which they say is a game changing advance, and will be commercially available available from 2019.

https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr03...

Range 320km on 6-minute ultra-rapid recharge.
Retains 90% of its initial capacity after 5,000 charge/discharge cycles

Simon will of course be along shortly to battery tech is not advancing at all as his laptop battery died once.

How much energy would have to be discharged into the battery within those 6 minutes to give the range required? Is that 320 km for a Tesla or a Leaf ?

And is that feasible from a charging equipment requirement and also from a network capability requirement?

Its no good saying there's a 6 minutes recharging capability if there's not enough juice or capability in the system to provide such a burst of power .

On the other hand, if there is that capability, and without battery degeneration, I can see forecourt owners jumping on this as a means to keep their business model going.

Cheers,

Tony

The article references a 32 kWh battery, so to charge that in 1/10 of an hour means at least 320 kW. For a three-phase 400V supply that probably means a 600A incoming supply, which is reasonably common in commercial and industrial installations. That's per vehicle of course. Tesla superchargers probably have a similar incoming supply to each dual charging station.