Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
SimonYorkshire said:
essayer said:
Assuming 0.28 drag coefficient, 20 sq.ft surface area, and 1500kg weight, I calculate that a car will need (at the wheels)
12kW to maintain 60mph
16kW to maintain 70mph
22kW to maintain 80mph
So a car with a 30kWh battery should be able to achieve well over 100 miles at 70mph, after taking into consideration drivetrain+power transfer losses 5%/heating 1kW etc
I'll go with your figures Essayer.12kW to maintain 60mph
16kW to maintain 70mph
22kW to maintain 80mph
So a car with a 30kWh battery should be able to achieve well over 100 miles at 70mph, after taking into consideration drivetrain+power transfer losses 5%/heating 1kW etc
Your figures show that if speed is increased by 33% from 60 to 80mph, rate of energy use has to increase from 12kw to 22kw which is an increase of 66.7%. The difference in those % figures represents the smaller range at the higher speed. The difference will be lower if the heating is on but not by a great margin.
rscott said:
Even a 2009 Mini-E does better than you predict . https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/02/f8/200...
Nevertheless Rscott and especially Tinrobot, you cannot deny that EV speed vastly affects range. My qashqai lost about 1/4 of it's range if I went over 80mph. the difference between 55 and 85 was 55mpg to 35mpg (450-350 miles on a tank). So speed causing reduced range applies to Petrol too.
SimonYorkshire said:
essayer said:
Assuming 0.28 drag coefficient, 20 sq.ft surface area, and 1500kg weight, I calculate that a car will need (at the wheels)
12kW to maintain 60mph
16kW to maintain 70mph
22kW to maintain 80mph
So a car with a 30kWh battery should be able to achieve well over 100 miles at 70mph, after taking into consideration drivetrain+power transfer losses 5%/heating 1kW etc
I'll go with your figures Essayer.12kW to maintain 60mph
16kW to maintain 70mph
22kW to maintain 80mph
So a car with a 30kWh battery should be able to achieve well over 100 miles at 70mph, after taking into consideration drivetrain+power transfer losses 5%/heating 1kW etc
Your figures show that if speed is increased by 33% from 60 to 80mph, rate of energy use has to increase from 12kw to 22kw which is an increase of 66.7%. The difference in those % figures represents the smaller range at the higher speed. The difference will be lower if the heating is on but not by a great margin.
rscott said:
Even a 2009 Mini-E does better than you predict . https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/02/f8/200...
Nevertheless Rscott and especially Tinrobot, you cannot deny that EV speed vastly affects range. I didn't see any range figures on your link anyway Rscott?Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 11:41
As for range figures..
Try opening the link and looking in the column headed "Performance Statistics" . The clue is in the subtitles "Constant Speed Range @55mph" and "Constant Speed Range @65mph"
pherlopolus said:
Don't forget that in normal driving our leaf recovered about 33% of the battery it consumed through re-gen braking. Ok at a constant speed that is less, bit there are still hills, and everytime you take your foot of the go pedal it kicks in.
My qashqai lost about 1/4 of it's range if I went over 80mph. the difference between 55 and 85 was 55mpg to 35mpg (450-350 miles on a tank). So speed causing reduced range applies to Petrol too.
The above figures leave no room for improvements from regen braking. The figures are for a consistent speed, if you slow down and speed up instead of maintaining a consistent speed your range will be lower - Regen braking is not 100% efficient, also if you slow down sure you will use less energy and so increase range but then you cannot maintain the sane average speed unless at some points your speed is above the consistent speed, and then your range will again decrease further. If you had to drive 100 miles in 2 hours you could do that on less energy if you drove at consistent 50mph for 2 hours than if you drove at 100 mph for 30 mins (50 miles) then covered the remaining 50 miles in 1.5 half hours at 33.33mph.. common sense. My qashqai lost about 1/4 of it's range if I went over 80mph. the difference between 55 and 85 was 55mpg to 35mpg (450-350 miles on a tank). So speed causing reduced range applies to Petrol too.
Read my next post to Rscot which also answers your point on ice speed / range implications.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 12:25
rscott said:
Any vehicle speed affects range - it's not something specific to EVs, so not sure why you're making such a massive issue of it.
As for range figures..
Try opening the link and looking in the column headed "Performance Statistics" . The clue is in the subtitles "Constant Speed Range @55mph" and "Constant Speed Range @65mph"
Thanks again Rscott. Your figures agree with mine and do show how speed drastically effects EV range even in the case of the EV Mini you preferred to link to. Your linked figures show the EV Mini's range is 129.5 miles at 55mph or 104.15 miles at 65mph... Your figures show that range falls by over 19% between 55 and 65mph. Thanks for providing further proof of my point!As for range figures..
Try opening the link and looking in the column headed "Performance Statistics" . The clue is in the subtitles "Constant Speed Range @55mph" and "Constant Speed Range @65mph"
Of course speed effects ice range, but speed doesn't effect ice range as much as it effects EV range... that's just for starters. If you like we will assume speed does effect ice range just as much as it effects EV range, I don't need this to make my main point. The reasons this is more of a big deal for EVs is because recharging an EV takes such as long time in comparison to refuelling an ice, and compounding this, EV range is much shorter than ice range. Long charge times are bad enough alone, Short range is bad enough alone. When you get the two negatives together the effect isn't just doubly as bad it is much worse than that. If EV range was only 50 miles but you could recharge in 2 mins and there were chargers every 25 miles range would still be a major inconvenience but not one that would necessarily slow speed of progress of a journey too much. If range were 1000 miles and recharging took all day it wouldn't be a massive deal. If you have to stop every 100 miles for say an hours charge the overall effect is much worse than either just the short range or just the long charge time alone. Even 1 hour charge for 100 miles range is being generous and showing EVs in a better light that they are capable of in the real world.
Pherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 12:28
SimonYorkshire said:
rscott said:
Any vehicle speed affects range - it's not something specific to EVs, so not sure why you're making such a massive issue of it.
As for range figures..
Try opening the link and looking in the column headed "Performance Statistics" . The clue is in the subtitles "Constant Speed Range @55mph" and "Constant Speed Range @65mph"
Thanks again Rscott. Your figures agree with mine and do show how speed drastically effects EV range even in the case of the EV Mini you preferred to link to. Your linked figures show the EV Mini's range is 129.5 miles at 55mph or 104.15 miles at 65mph... Your figures show that range falls by over 19% between 55 and 65mph. Thanks for providing further proof of my point!As for range figures..
Try opening the link and looking in the column headed "Performance Statistics" . The clue is in the subtitles "Constant Speed Range @55mph" and "Constant Speed Range @65mph"
Of course speed effects ice range, but speed doesn't effect ice range as much as it effects EV range... that's just for starters. If you like we will assume speed does effect ice range just as much as it effects EV range, I don't need this to make my main point. The reasons this is more of a big deal for EVs is because recharging an EV takes such as long time in comparison to refuelling an ice, and compounding this, EV range is much shorter than ice range. Long charge times are bad enough alone, Short range is bad enough alone. When you get the two negatives together the effect isn't just doubly as bad it is much worse than that. If EV range was only 50 miles but you could recharge in 2 mins and there were chargers every 25 miles range would still be a major inconvenience but not one that would necessarily slow speed of progress of a journey too much. If range were 1000 miles and recharging took all day it wouldn't be a massive deal. If you have to stop every 100 miles for say an hours charge the overall effect is much worse than either just the short range or just the long charge time alone. Even 1 hour charge for 100 miles range is being generous and showing EVs in a better light that they are capable of in the real world.
Yes, everyone knows EVs take longer to charge than ICE vehicles. No one has ever denied that. Same as no-one has ever said that the current EVs will suit everyone. However, you appear unable to accept that current EVs (most with ranges of 150 miles or more) are suitable for the vast majority of journeys made by vehicles today.
InitialDave said:
Firstly, does anyone actually care?
Secondly, the flipside is how stop-start local driving (which is horrific for ICE mpg) is very well suited to EVS.
Buy what fits your usage.
this is exactly the point, that somehow has become a 130 page post ! we're all different and have different needs. Secondly, the flipside is how stop-start local driving (which is horrific for ICE mpg) is very well suited to EVS.
Buy what fits your usage.
A leaf for my wife is perfect. it goes from home, to school, to work, to kids activities and all that nonsense, day in day out.
In 4500 miles its average speed is 17 mph. she doesn't need a fast A road beast, a diesel car with a 650 mile range, or a 300 mile LPG range.
she needs something to jump in and sit in traffic in. An EV fits that bill. The fact we don't even have to bother going to a petrol station, even better.
now its getting colder, guess what she can pre-heat the car to be ready to rush out of the house, with a hoard of un-ready children who struggle to be ready for the golden time of 8.30 am each day. what joy. No more clearing icy windscreens and such nonsense.
should we want a massive journey, we'll go in my car as its bigger and more comfy.
it's not rocket science is it. But our scenario might not be out neighbours and so on. Some people might want a 15 yr old lexus with a gas conversion to still achieve worse fuel performance than a good diesel. And that's fine, we're all different.
Oh and as for range. Our leaf is doing 124 miles around hilly Yorkshire with every single heating and electrical device in it, turned on.
Some Leaf drivers do hit the magic 150 miles with a bit more caution. But hey, if they want to save 12 and 1/2p on a fill up, go for it !
SimonYorkshire said:
Of course speed effects ice range, but speed doesn't effect ice range as much as it effects EV range... that's just for starters. If you like we will assume speed does effect ice range just as much as it effects EV range, I don't need this to make my main point. The reasons this is more of a big deal for EVs is because recharging an EV takes such as long time in comparison to refuelling an ice, and compounding this, EV range is much shorter than ice range. Long charge times are bad enough alone, Short range is bad enough alone. When you get the two negatives together the effect isn't just doubly as bad it is much worse than that. If EV range was only 50 miles but you could recharge in 2 mins and there were chargers every 25 miles range would still be a major inconvenience but not one that would necessarily slow speed of progress of a journey too much. If range were 1000 miles and recharging took all day it wouldn't be a massive deal. If you have to stop every 100 miles for say an hours charge the overall effect is much worse than either just the short range or just the long charge time alone. Even 1 hour charge for 100 miles range is being generous and showing EVs in a better light that they are capable of in the real world.
Pherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.
bPherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 12:28
kS!Sorry, but what you have just written is total and utter crap. (no surprises there) I could spend the next 15 min of my life explaining the thermodynamic laws that make what you have written total b
ks, but sorry i can't be arsed.......
SimonYorkshire said:
.
Pherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.
It was a 1.2 turbo, I am well aware of the sweet spot for economy, and just like with the EV I took zero interest in sitting there. In top gear (6th and even 5th) it struggled on hills on motorways which is something the leaf never did. The economy of the QQ dropped off quite quickly above 60, and if i took it much above 80 it would struggle to hit 30mpg. so from 55 - 30mpg is an almost 50% reduction in range.Pherlopolous just said his petrol/diesel Qashqai range was only effect by 25% if he drove above 80mph. Actually he would find (if it has a manual gearbox) that his range would be furthest at around minimum speed for top gear without labouring the engine and range would only diminish for greater speeds than that, but still the ice range is not affected by anything near as much as EV range is effected by speed because ice engines are more efficient at making power higher power than they are at making lower power, it is just that increased drag from speed offsets this.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 12:28
ICE might be more efficient at making power at higher engine speeds (generally), but they are still woe-fully inefficient, and they mask it by throwing an huge amount of potential energy at the problem.
And again - all your sums are on current (or -1 generation) EV's and don't take into account near future improvements (year on year)
I really do think you are clutching at straws now. And you haven't responded to my other comment giving you the benefits of an EV.
Oh dear, EVangelists are seeming an unhappy and confused lot now lol.
Now we have Rscott, Tinrobot, Maxtorque, and maybe Pherlopolous implying stuff like this:
They disagree with the facts and figures on EV range linked to by myself for the Tesla and linked to by Rscot for the MiniEV.
They would disagree that an ice that achieves 50mpg at 50mph will achieve something like 30mpg at 80mph.
They would disagree that an ice the achieves 50mpg at 50mph will not achieve 100mpg at 10mph. (FYI an ice that will do 50mpg at 50mph will not achieve 100mpg at 10mph!).
Now we have Tinroot, Jwilde, Maxtorque and AW111 getting nasty again because I quoted figures supplied by EVangelist(s) in their links that they didn't like.
Only InitialDave replied with a decent attitude, I can agree with him that it's whatever fits your usage. I'd probably disagree with him if he were to say most families would have no worries if they were to have just one car and the car they had was an EV but he doesn't say that.
Austinsmirk's reply wasn't too bad, just not sure why the LPG car in his example is a 15 year old Lexus. Still, If it was a 15 year old LPG converted Lexus it's running costs would be likely lower than that of a new EV. And Austin, we can think of 2 very simple reasons EV's pre-heat... 1 They're plugged in to the mains when they preheat, since an EV's heater will be an electric heater the manufacturer might as well add the facility. 2. The heaters in EVs are crap in comparison to ice heaters and if it were not for the preheating quite a bit of the battery's power would go into heating the car decreasing poor range still further. Ask yourself this - which car out of the 15 year old Lexus and the EV will warm up inside more quickly if you don't use pre-heating? Anyone with any car could stick an electric heater in the car on a timer... if only they could be bothered to plug the heater in on a night and unplug it in the morning eh? Not to worry though, petrol ices warm up very quickly and using heated seats, heated windscreens, heated rear windows hardly effects ice range at all. Can't remember the last time I needed to de-ice a windscreen anyway but if your EV is parked in the garage for it's overnight charge it's windscreen probably won't be iced even in really cold weather eh. Probably wouldn't bother sticking the 15 year old Lexus in the garage and what's more there's no need to even pull it onto the drive (if you've even got a drive) because you don't need to plug it in unless you want to rig up some sort of electric pre-heater that cannot kick out a quarter of the heat of the ice heater when it gets going. For anyone who's moving to an EV from a diesel engine, they should know (or remember) that petrol and LPG engines warm up much quicker than diesel engines.
The 12.5p difference in electricity bill doesn't really tell the whole running cost story... Don't forget depreciation, don;t forget maintenance. Sure EV motors are reliable and the batteries will last quite a while, but quite a while is not a known quantity and batteries for EVs represent a significant portion of the value of the whole vehicle, and new parts for old cars come at new car prices, and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
Now we have Rscott, Tinrobot, Maxtorque, and maybe Pherlopolous implying stuff like this:
They disagree with the facts and figures on EV range linked to by myself for the Tesla and linked to by Rscot for the MiniEV.
They would disagree that an ice that achieves 50mpg at 50mph will achieve something like 30mpg at 80mph.
They would disagree that an ice the achieves 50mpg at 50mph will not achieve 100mpg at 10mph. (FYI an ice that will do 50mpg at 50mph will not achieve 100mpg at 10mph!).
Now we have Tinroot, Jwilde, Maxtorque and AW111 getting nasty again because I quoted figures supplied by EVangelist(s) in their links that they didn't like.
Only InitialDave replied with a decent attitude, I can agree with him that it's whatever fits your usage. I'd probably disagree with him if he were to say most families would have no worries if they were to have just one car and the car they had was an EV but he doesn't say that.
Austinsmirk's reply wasn't too bad, just not sure why the LPG car in his example is a 15 year old Lexus. Still, If it was a 15 year old LPG converted Lexus it's running costs would be likely lower than that of a new EV. And Austin, we can think of 2 very simple reasons EV's pre-heat... 1 They're plugged in to the mains when they preheat, since an EV's heater will be an electric heater the manufacturer might as well add the facility. 2. The heaters in EVs are crap in comparison to ice heaters and if it were not for the preheating quite a bit of the battery's power would go into heating the car decreasing poor range still further. Ask yourself this - which car out of the 15 year old Lexus and the EV will warm up inside more quickly if you don't use pre-heating? Anyone with any car could stick an electric heater in the car on a timer... if only they could be bothered to plug the heater in on a night and unplug it in the morning eh? Not to worry though, petrol ices warm up very quickly and using heated seats, heated windscreens, heated rear windows hardly effects ice range at all. Can't remember the last time I needed to de-ice a windscreen anyway but if your EV is parked in the garage for it's overnight charge it's windscreen probably won't be iced even in really cold weather eh. Probably wouldn't bother sticking the 15 year old Lexus in the garage and what's more there's no need to even pull it onto the drive (if you've even got a drive) because you don't need to plug it in unless you want to rig up some sort of electric pre-heater that cannot kick out a quarter of the heat of the ice heater when it gets going. For anyone who's moving to an EV from a diesel engine, they should know (or remember) that petrol and LPG engines warm up much quicker than diesel engines.
The 12.5p difference in electricity bill doesn't really tell the whole running cost story... Don't forget depreciation, don;t forget maintenance. Sure EV motors are reliable and the batteries will last quite a while, but quite a while is not a known quantity and batteries for EVs represent a significant portion of the value of the whole vehicle, and new parts for old cars come at new car prices, and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
SimonYorkshire said:
I disagree. But you could have replied with a link to a similar graph for a Leaf?
A constant 2kw load to run AC is not unrealistic, if the Tesla's AC system is as good as the AC system in most cars it will use more than 2kw when the AC compressor clutch is engaged (effectively engaged because I don't know if the Tesla AC compressor even has a clutch, but you'll get my drift). The average car's AC system will use around 2kw on average. It costs twice as much in energy to cool an area using AC than it does to heat an area - If in cold weather you need a 1kw heater in a car, in hot weather you need to cool the car with 2kw's worth of AC. Consider the heat that an average car heater can kick out, it is much more than 2kw's worth. I have slept in cars plenty times in winter and even though the car isn't moving (no wind chill from the outside) it can take more than 2kw to keep it warm inside - on a hot summer day it will take more than 2kw of AC to keep it cool.
I don't live in death valley, so constant 2kw A/C is nonsense. I've just been out an about in our 4 yr old leaf with heating and A/C on. Had a very brief burst of 1.5kw on the heating, but then the rest of the time A/C and heating varied between zero and 0.5kw.A constant 2kw load to run AC is not unrealistic, if the Tesla's AC system is as good as the AC system in most cars it will use more than 2kw when the AC compressor clutch is engaged (effectively engaged because I don't know if the Tesla AC compressor even has a clutch, but you'll get my drift). The average car's AC system will use around 2kw on average. It costs twice as much in energy to cool an area using AC than it does to heat an area - If in cold weather you need a 1kw heater in a car, in hot weather you need to cool the car with 2kw's worth of AC. Consider the heat that an average car heater can kick out, it is much more than 2kw's worth. I have slept in cars plenty times in winter and even though the car isn't moving (no wind chill from the outside) it can take more than 2kw to keep it warm inside - on a hot summer day it will take more than 2kw of AC to keep it cool.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Monday 23 October 11:22
I've never seen the indicator say that heat & A/C is taking more than 6 miles off the range.
I have a house, so never need to spend the night sleeping in a car.
I really don't understand why the trolls have such hate for EVs. Those of us with an EV know that they work for us. They keep working for us every day. quoting made up stats isn't going to stop them working for us.
SimonYorkshire said:
and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
How many times has that car been serviced in 80,000 miles? 4-8 times? A timing belt, a fluid change, spark plugs perhaps, alternator, maybe a coil pack?SimonYorkshire said:
Oh dear, EVangelists are seeming an unhappy and confused lot now lol.
Austinsmirk's reply wasn't too bad, just not sure why the LPG car in his example is a 15 year old Lexus. Still, If it was a 15 year old LPG converted Lexus it's running costs would be likely lower than that of a new EV. And Austin, we can think of 2 very simple reasons EV's pre-heat... 1 They're plugged in to the mains when they preheat, since an EV's heater will be an electric heater the manufacturer might as well add the facility. 2. The heaters in EVs are crap in comparison to ice heaters and if it were not for the preheating quite a bit of the battery's power would go into heating the car decreasing poor range still further. Ask yourself this - which car out of the 15 year old Lexus and the EV will warm up inside more quickly if you don't use pre-heating? Anyone with any car could stick an electric heater in the car on a timer... if only they could be bothered to plug the heater in on a night and unplug it in the morning eh? Not to worry though, petrol ices warm up very quickly and using heated seats, heated windscreens, heated rear windows hardly effects ice range at all. Can't remember the last time I needed to de-ice a windscreen anyway but if your EV is parked in the garage for it's overnight charge it's windscreen probably won't be iced even in really cold weather eh. Probably wouldn't bother sticking the 15 year old Lexus in the garage and what's more there's no need to even pull it onto the drive (if you've even got a drive) because you don't need to plug it in unless you want to rig up some sort of electric pre-heater that cannot kick out a quarter of the heat of the ice heater when it gets going. For anyone who's moving to an EV from a diesel engine, they should know (or remember) that petrol and LPG engines warm up much quicker than diesel engines.
The 12.5p difference in electricity bill doesn't really tell the whole running cost story... Don't forget depreciation, don;t forget maintenance. Sure EV motors are reliable and the batteries will last quite a while, but quite a while is not a known quantity and batteries for EVs represent a significant portion of the value of the whole vehicle, and new parts for old cars come at new car prices, and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
jesus wept.Austinsmirk's reply wasn't too bad, just not sure why the LPG car in his example is a 15 year old Lexus. Still, If it was a 15 year old LPG converted Lexus it's running costs would be likely lower than that of a new EV. And Austin, we can think of 2 very simple reasons EV's pre-heat... 1 They're plugged in to the mains when they preheat, since an EV's heater will be an electric heater the manufacturer might as well add the facility. 2. The heaters in EVs are crap in comparison to ice heaters and if it were not for the preheating quite a bit of the battery's power would go into heating the car decreasing poor range still further. Ask yourself this - which car out of the 15 year old Lexus and the EV will warm up inside more quickly if you don't use pre-heating? Anyone with any car could stick an electric heater in the car on a timer... if only they could be bothered to plug the heater in on a night and unplug it in the morning eh? Not to worry though, petrol ices warm up very quickly and using heated seats, heated windscreens, heated rear windows hardly effects ice range at all. Can't remember the last time I needed to de-ice a windscreen anyway but if your EV is parked in the garage for it's overnight charge it's windscreen probably won't be iced even in really cold weather eh. Probably wouldn't bother sticking the 15 year old Lexus in the garage and what's more there's no need to even pull it onto the drive (if you've even got a drive) because you don't need to plug it in unless you want to rig up some sort of electric pre-heater that cannot kick out a quarter of the heat of the ice heater when it gets going. For anyone who's moving to an EV from a diesel engine, they should know (or remember) that petrol and LPG engines warm up much quicker than diesel engines.
The 12.5p difference in electricity bill doesn't really tell the whole running cost story... Don't forget depreciation, don;t forget maintenance. Sure EV motors are reliable and the batteries will last quite a while, but quite a while is not a known quantity and batteries for EVs represent a significant portion of the value of the whole vehicle, and new parts for old cars come at new car prices, and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
Most (all current?) EVs have heat exchangers, they provide instant heat - yes faster than a petrol car - are efficient and great. Lots of evs have heated seats/steering wheels.
running costs? If I needed to I can have my battery refurbed for about £2.5K. Sure its a lot of money, but then DPF/EGR/DMF/etc aren't cheap. Running costs on our leaf are tiny compared to the costs of a petrol/diesel. servicing at the main dealer is £100 a go. fuel costs for us save £1500/year compared to the diesel it replaced.
Theres a floor to values because all that battery/motor/dc-dc converter/charger stuff is quite valueable second hand even for non-vehicle applications.
Just signed up for 'chargenow' RFID card..
£7.80 inc vat a month, 5000 odd locations across the UK, 80% free to use as a member, the remaining 20% charged at 9p/kwh which means a 'full charge' will cost £2.97 and get me 130 realistic miles.
The BMW garage, which is less than a mile from my house as 2 x 50kw charge points which has never been occupied when i have needed them (either by ICE or fellow EVer)
lastly, if i give them half a days notice, they'll use their charge card meaning i pay naff all....
£7.80 inc vat a month, 5000 odd locations across the UK, 80% free to use as a member, the remaining 20% charged at 9p/kwh which means a 'full charge' will cost £2.97 and get me 130 realistic miles.
The BMW garage, which is less than a mile from my house as 2 x 50kw charge points which has never been occupied when i have needed them (either by ICE or fellow EVer)
lastly, if i give them half a days notice, they'll use their charge card meaning i pay naff all....
pherlopolus said:
It was a 1.2 turbo, I am well aware of the sweet spot for economy, and just like with the EV I took zero interest in sitting there. In top gear (6th and even 5th) it struggled on hills on motorways which is something the leaf never did. The economy of the QQ dropped off quite quickly above 60, and if i took it much above 80 it would struggle to hit 30mpg. so from 55 - 30mpg is an almost 50% reduction in range.
ICE might be more efficient at making power at higher engine speeds (generally), but they are still woe-fully inefficient, and they mask it by throwing an huge amount of potential energy at the problem.
And again - all your sums are on current (or -1 generation) EV's and don't take into account near future improvements (year on year)
I really do think you are clutching at straws now. And you haven't responded to my other comment giving you the benefits of an EV.
Ahh thankyou Pherlopolus, yes ice engines have a sweet spot for efficiently making power. The sweet spot for engines is usually at a power level that is greater than necessary to maintain motorway cruising speed, the sweet spot is at a fairly high portion of the engine's maximum power, because after all we are all familiar with the concept of smaller engines being more economical than bigger engines. But I'm not sure if those such as Maxtorque just disagreed with these concepts. Engines are inefficient whatever the power level, but don't forget EVs are only near 100% efficient during the discharge phase. Batteries are not near 100% efficient when charging, battery chargers are not near 100% efficient, the grid is not near 100% efficient in getting that power from a power station to your house or to some charging point, power stations are not near 100% efficient. That's a lot of links in the chain each of which is not near 100% efficient when you come to charge your battery. ICE might be more efficient at making power at higher engine speeds (generally), but they are still woe-fully inefficient, and they mask it by throwing an huge amount of potential energy at the problem.
And again - all your sums are on current (or -1 generation) EV's and don't take into account near future improvements (year on year)
I really do think you are clutching at straws now. And you haven't responded to my other comment giving you the benefits of an EV.
And another point which I have touched on before - Hybrid tech means the ice engine in hybrids runs much closer to it's peak efficiency than in pure ice's . Yes a hybrid makes sense, a hybrid combines the best points of ice tech with the best of EV tech and to me seems by far a better solution than imposing EV limitations on oneself. Perhaps it's a pity you didn't have the foresight to compare an ice to a hybrid Lexus, you might find yourself thinking it a good idea to trade in your EV for a hybrid Lexus and having a few quid left over to spend on various trips out to places that would have been too much hassle to get to and back from in a pure EV.
SimonYorkshire said:
Only InitialDave replied with a decent attitude, I can agree with him that it's whatever fits your usage. I'd probably disagree with him if he were to say most families would have no worries if they were to have just one car and the car they had was an EV but he doesn't say that.
Well, as I've said previously, I think they would probably find it less of an issue than people may expect. If you're mainly driving around town or your local area, and a long journey is a rare occurence, you might be better buying a car that fits that rather than effectively overspecifying to meet every possible requirement.It depends what your balance of use is, and I think a lot of people's use would suit an EV most of the time.
Yes, they'd need to make alterative arrangements sometimes if they don't want to charge en route on a long run, but it's little different to the fact that an MX5 is fine as your only car, but buggers you for a shopping trip to Ikea or taking more than one person somewhere - and at least the EV can do long trips if required.
I haven't looked in here in a while but see Yorkshire's Finest Simon is still trying desperately to win a cause that was lost before this Thread even started! lol
Fact: The Powers-that-be in both Government and Manufacturing have long since decided that EV's are their propulsion method of choice and that they will phase these in with Hybrids so that the necessary infrastructure can be put into place.
It's all going to happen! There is a Bill in Parliament now to force Fuel Stations to all provide charging points. Just one step in many that is currently taking place.
No matter whether to you like it or not, whether you are a Genius who can prove another system is better or not, EV vehicles ARE happening and they ARE the Future! First Diesels and then Petrol-only engines will be phased out. Eventually, you will only be able to buy EV. There is no further debate. It happened and the outcome is currently being implemented. Get used to it!
The argument that is happening here re a minority fringe tech called LPG is utterly irrelevant and pointless; it is already consigned to the History Channel.
Evanivitch said:
SimonYorkshire said:
and while a second hand engine that's covered 80000 miles might be as good as a new engine a battery that's a few years old and has covered 80000 miles is less likely to be as good as a new one. This type of battery stuff is even mentioned in the links we've already seen.
How many times has that car been serviced in 80,000 miles? 4-8 times? A timing belt, a fluid change, spark plugs perhaps, alternator, maybe a coil pack?Fluid change, yes every year, maybe £50.
Spark plugs hmm maybe maybe not. £12 for a set of 4 plugs
Alternator, doubt it very much.
DPF's only apply to diesels.
DMF's mostly apply to diesels.
EGR's mostly apply to diesels.
Coil pack, doubt it after 80000 miles.
Don't forget common rail diesel injectors go bad quite often too and they're quite expensive at over £100 each. Seems neither of us like diesels.
You seem to be combining the worst features over diesels and petrols and from several different manufacturers.
My own ice has a 3.3V6 pushrod engine, no cambelt, no EGR, no DPF, no DMF, I've owned several of the same model and a coil pack has never gone but I have a spare on the shelf that cost £3k from a scrappies just in case. It does only about 20mpg but I run it on LPG so I pay as much for fuel as if it
did 40mpg on petrol. It costs me nothing in depreciation and hasn't cost me anything in parts. It never will cost me much in parts even if it goes wrong because parts are a plenty in scrappies lol.
Do you keep a spare battery lying around? If so, how much did it cost? If so ,would a mechanic mate fit you it if (when) yours goes down and starts delivering even worse range? I'm interested in the battery refurb thing someone mentioned... I can't see how a battery can be refurbed, can someone explain this? Do you reckon a refurbed battery will give as much range as a new battery? I don't. Does an engine that's covered 80000 miles give as much range and performance as a new engine? Yes, and don't say 'no' because you know darn well that you couldn't tell the difference between a new engine and one that had covered 80000 miles.
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