Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
SimonYorkshire said:
rscott said:
Just to remind the LPG addict that ICE vehicles suffer badly with speed too (from http://www.mpgforspeed.com/ )
According to studies backed by the department of energy, the average car will be at its advertised MPG at 55 mph. But as the speed increases:
- 3% less efficient at 60 mph
- 8% less efficient at 65 mph
- 17% less efficient at 70 mph
- 23% less efficient at 75 mph
- 28% less efficient at 80 mph
They claim an ICE vehicle which gives 40mpg at 55mph only returns 28 mpg at 80mph. So a typical hatchback with an 11 gallon tank goes from a 440 mile range to only 308 miles.
Of course, that's ignoring the massive drop in ICE economy for the first few minutes of use, until it has warmed up fully.
Thanks for that Rscot. If we extended your list down to 10mph and up to 100moh you'd be helping me make my point. According to studies backed by the department of energy, the average car will be at its advertised MPG at 55 mph. But as the speed increases:
- 3% less efficient at 60 mph
- 8% less efficient at 65 mph
- 17% less efficient at 70 mph
- 23% less efficient at 75 mph
- 28% less efficient at 80 mph
They claim an ICE vehicle which gives 40mpg at 55mph only returns 28 mpg at 80mph. So a typical hatchback with an 11 gallon tank goes from a 440 mile range to only 308 miles.
Of course, that's ignoring the massive drop in ICE economy for the first few minutes of use, until it has warmed up fully.
It's the age old question for a long journey: Drive fast and have to refuel, or drive slower with no refueling and see which is quicker.
As for ICE vs EV, the main difference is that with ICE, you can get the type of car you want, at the price you want and with EV you can't yet.
A Tesla Model S/X 100 has the range pretty much anyone needs, but the price is far too high and they are far too big for many people.
A Leaf/i3 etc don't have sufficient range for many one car households.
A Tesla Model 3 won't be here for another 3 years (probably) and the low spec one is still too big and too expensive for many people.
However, if you have the funds and need the space/don't mind the size, a Model S/X makes perfect sense now, a Leaf/i3 makes a great second car.
I've yet to see any EV stranded at the roadside because it's run out of electricity.
As for ICE vs EV, the main difference is that with ICE, you can get the type of car you want, at the price you want and with EV you can't yet.
A Tesla Model S/X 100 has the range pretty much anyone needs, but the price is far too high and they are far too big for many people.
A Leaf/i3 etc don't have sufficient range for many one car households.
A Tesla Model 3 won't be here for another 3 years (probably) and the low spec one is still too big and too expensive for many people.
However, if you have the funds and need the space/don't mind the size, a Model S/X makes perfect sense now, a Leaf/i3 makes a great second car.
I've yet to see any EV stranded at the roadside because it's run out of electricity.
rscott said:
No, it shows that your criticism of EV range dropoff at speed is at least as applicable to ICE vehicles. Probably more so because they're also extremely inefficient by comparison at slow speeds, let alone stop/start traffic. Or what you could call real world usage, rather than travelling at 100mph on flat, straight roads with no traffic whatsoever.
You just backed up my points again!I am saying ices are inefficient at low speeds, that's because the engines in them have to be big enough to push the car at high speeds and engines are not as efficient at making 5% of their max power as they are at making 70% of their max power. If you only ever needed 5% of a big engine's power you might as well fit a small engine and run it at 70% of it's max power.
It is less efficient is terms of ice fuel or EV charge to do high speeds than low speeds because of drag. With an EV you use pretty much just the energy required to overcome drag to maintain speed, with an ice it isn't quite so clear cut because at low speed the engine isn't making the low power it needs to overcome the low drag as efficiently as a smaller engine making that same low level of power.
Since drag is low at low speeds but ice engines are less efficient at making low power (than a motor which is efficient at making any power), this offsets the low drag and makes for more consistent energy use over a wider range of speeds than for EVs.
This would be a plus for EVs if the affordable EV's you could buy had a range of 300 miles at 60mph, but it is a negative for EVs that have range of 120 miles, especially if that 120 miles is at 40/50mph, especially given long EV recharge time.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 24th October 17:59
Tony427 said:
gangzoom said:
In other news, an EV 5 seater family saloon does a drag race against some rather expensive 2 seater combustion cars....am sure you can guess the which car crossed the finish line first 
.
The moral of the story seems to be if you only ever want to go 1/4 of a mile choose a Tesla. .Any more or longer than that and " performance soon peter's out" to quote the people running the drag race. Thats when the other cars romp into the sunset and the Tesla owner starts eyeing the range meter with quiet concern.
Hence, even in the non drag racing UK, we see the EV inside lane huggers.
Oh and at 155 mph, The Tesla's limited top speed, you only get 62 miles, or 24 minutes. That is unless the software limits the drain on the battery. And it also stops regenerative braking as the battery gets too hot at that rate of discharge it seems. Even a few repeated 1/4mile drag race damages the battery so much so that the software steps in to limit them.
Cheers,
Tony
Twerp in a Leaf doing no more than 40 in the slow lane of the M25 on Saturday morning. He should have been reported to the police.
SimonYorkshire said:
rscott said:
No, it shows that your criticism of EV range dropoff at speed is at least as applicable to ICE vehicles. Probably more so because they're also extremely inefficient by comparison at slow speeds, let alone stop/start traffic. Or what you could call real world usage, rather than travelling at 100mph on flat, straight roads with no traffic whatsoever.
You just backed up my points again!I am saying ices are inefficient at low speeds, that's because the engines in them have to be big enough to push the car at high speeds and engines are not as efficient at making 5% of their max power as they are at making 70% of their max power. If you only ever needed 5% of a big engine's power you might as well fit a small engine and run it at 70% of it's max power.
It is less efficient is terms of ice fuel or EV charge to do high speeds than low speeds because of drag. With an EV you use pretty much just the energy required for to overcome drag to maintain speed, with an ice it isn't quite so clear cut because at low speed the engine isn't making the power it does have to make as a smaller engine making that same level of power.
Since drag is low at low speeds but ice engines are less efficient at making low power (than a motor which is efficient at making any power), this offsets the low drag and makes for more consistent energy use over a wider range of speeds than for EVs.
This would be a plus for EVs if the affordable EV's you could buy had a range of 300 miles at 60mph, but it is a negative for EVs that have range of 120 miles, especially if that 120 miles is at 40/50mph, especially given long EV recharge time.
Whereas EVs suffer similar dropoff at speed but are way more efficient at lower speeds, let alone stop/start traffic.
A typical long journey for most people doesn't consist of leaving the house, getting straight onto the (clear) motorway and cruising at 70-80mph all the way on straight, flat roads though.
In the real world, there's a reasonable distance at the start and end along smaller, slower roads, plus traffic, inclines, corners, even. All of which impact range of both vehicle types. The EV less so as it'll be able to regenerate some energy when decelerating.
Yes, the EV will need longer to refuel - no-one has ever disputed that either. However the feedback on here from actual EV users seems to be that it's not made a single one suicidal, or even a little bit depressed!
head in an i3 at around 75mph on the A27 not long ago. Not funny at all to see him clearly lose all power. SimonYorkshire said:
Since drag is low at low speeds but ice engines are less efficient at making low power (than a motor which is efficient at making any power), this offsets the low drag and makes for more consistent energy use over a wider range of speeds than for EVs.
SimonYorkshire said:
This would be a plus for EVs if the affordable EV's you could buy had a range of 300 miles at 60mph, but it is a negative for EVs that have range of 120 miles, especially if that 120 miles is at 40/50mph, especially given long EV recharge time.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.EVs DO take a long time to charge, only pro EVers like yourself are disputing that. If it takes 2or3 mins to refuel an ice for 300 mile range, 30/40/120 mins to charge an EV for 100 miles range is crap.
Yes, 30kwh EVs do have limitations - range, and especially range at speed.
You keep telling us Mr Average drives 20 miles per day, so why wouldn't Mr Average prefer an hybrid that has 30 miles range on battery/electricity but 300 miles range on petrol that he can refuel with petrol that is widely available? In comparison your Leaf with 120 miles range is only better on trips between 30 miles and 120 miles and only then if you don't drive above about 60mph eh. And when your Leaf is capable of 240 miles range for an hours charge the equivalent hybrid will be capable of 60 miles range for 15 mins charge and will still have 300 miles range on petrol., so now your Leaf would only perhaps be better than the hybrid between 60 miles and 240 miles even by your own standards.
SimonYorkshire said:
You keep telling us Mr Average drives 20 miles per day, so why wouldn't Mr Average prefer an hybrid that has 30 miles range on battery/electricity but 300 miles range on petrol that he can refuel with petrol that is widely available? In comparison your Leaf with 120 miles range is only better on trips between 30 miles and 120 miles and only then if you don't drive above about 60mph eh. And when your Leaf is capable of 240 miles range for an hours charge the equivalent hybrid will be capable of 60 miles range for 15 mins charge and will still have 300 miles range on petrol [b](provided he travels at 50-60. if he goes faster or slower then that'll drop considerably)[b/]., so now your Leaf would only perhaps be better than the hybrid between 60 miles and 240 miles even by your own standards.
Added the bit I'm sure you accidentally missed. I'm sure you didn't mean to omit the fact that ICE range drops as well, did you. I'll bite. If Mr Average rarely drives more than 20 miles a day, why would he want the extra complexity of an ICE engine as well as the battery system? How would it save him any money or be any more convenient? He's got an EV which has ample range for his normal usage anyway.
On the very odd occasions he needs to travel 300 miles, stop for 5 minutes, then drive straight back, he can hire an ICE car (probably with the money he's saved on fuel..) .
Or to put it another way, my ICE has a range of 300 miles, which is more than I need for most journeys. Applying your 'logic' for getting a hybrid, I should swap it for an ICE with 500 mile range, just in case..
my 2p worth.
Had a Zoe when they were giving them away on PCP. Very good car. Okay so its range in the winter was only about 70 miles but for school runs and the around town driving we do it was great. Just plug it in when you pull onto the drive. Car pre-heated on cold mornings, came with sat nav, reverse camera and all the toys etc..
2nd car obviously, we have a petrol Qashqai. Driving that after the Zoe felt like a bag of hammers. The Zoe basically drove itself.
Had a Zoe when they were giving them away on PCP. Very good car. Okay so its range in the winter was only about 70 miles but for school runs and the around town driving we do it was great. Just plug it in when you pull onto the drive. Car pre-heated on cold mornings, came with sat nav, reverse camera and all the toys etc..
2nd car obviously, we have a petrol Qashqai. Driving that after the Zoe felt like a bag of hammers. The Zoe basically drove itself.
rscott said:
Added the bit I'm sure you accidentally missed. I'm sure you didn't mean to omit the fact that ICE range drops as well, did you.
I'll bite. If Mr Average rarely drives more than 20 miles a day, why would he want the extra complexity of an ICE engine as well as the battery system? How would it save him any money or be any more convenient? He's got an EV which has ample range for his normal usage anyway.
On the very odd occasions he needs to travel 300 miles, stop for 5 minutes, then drive straight back, he can hire an ICE car (probably with the money he's saved on fuel..) .
Or to put it another way, my ICE has a range of 300 miles, which is more than I need for most journeys. Applying your 'logic' for getting a hybrid, I should swap it for an ICE with 500 mile range, just in case..
Don't be ridiculous, I've said plenty times that ice range drops as speed increases.I'll bite. If Mr Average rarely drives more than 20 miles a day, why would he want the extra complexity of an ICE engine as well as the battery system? How would it save him any money or be any more convenient? He's got an EV which has ample range for his normal usage anyway.
On the very odd occasions he needs to travel 300 miles, stop for 5 minutes, then drive straight back, he can hire an ICE car (probably with the money he's saved on fuel..) .
Or to put it another way, my ICE has a range of 300 miles, which is more than I need for most journeys. Applying your 'logic' for getting a hybrid, I should swap it for an ICE with 500 mile range, just in case..
Bite? Did I say something provocative or ask a trick question?
Did you forget that EV range isn't 300 miles but is more likely 120 miles at 50mph? How will the extra complexity of the ice engine bother the driver? After all he won't be using the ice engine most of the time you reckon.
Yep, 20 miles per day average you reckon, the petrol/EV hybrid might have range on EV of 30 miles, more than enough to cover the 20 miles you reckon. But if the driver ever needs to do longer distance he won't have to put up with the restricted range or long charge time disadvantage of a pure EV will he? Now your EV with it's 120 mile range provided you only drive it at up to 50mph looks sick against the hybrid doesn't it? The only advantage of the EV with 120 mile range over the hybrid with 30 mlie range on EV power is for distances between 30 miles and 120 miles provided you're prepared to drive at low speeds. Or, if your EV gets twice the range (240 miles), the hybrid also benefits from the better battery tech and gets 60 mile range on EV power, and there is still a narrow window where the pure EV would have any sort of advantage.
I don't think 300 mile range is much less convenient for an ice driver than 500 mile range. Just have to stop for fuel a bit more often with 300 miles range than with 500 miles range but that's hardly an issue when a fuel stop takes a couple of mins regardless of 300 or 500 mile range and when there's petrol stations all over that you don't have to divert into town centres to reach. Plus if the ice is fitted in a petrol/EV hybrid, you'd reckon the driver won't have to stop for petrol ever anyway eh.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It really is, and should be interesting to discuss.Unfortunately, those that shout loudest are the trolls, which only very rarely illicit an interesting response from someone with something to add.
I'm not sure what mental disorder it is that causes one to troll, but it's a real shame that it stifles a thread that could be so interesting.
JD said:
It really is, and should be interesting to discuss.
Unfortunately, those that shout loudest are the trolls, which only very rarely illicit an interesting response from someone with something to add.
I'm not sure what mental disorder it is that causes one to troll, but it's a real shame that it stifles a thread that could be so interesting.
Apologies. I put another 10p in the idiot when I replied. Unfortunately, those that shout loudest are the trolls, which only very rarely illicit an interesting response from someone with something to add.
I'm not sure what mental disorder it is that causes one to troll, but it's a real shame that it stifles a thread that could be so interesting.
I'll try not to again - there's not much point doing so as he's incapable of understanding new facts, it would appear.
rscott said:
Apologies. I put another 10p in the idiot when I replied.
I'll try not to again - there's not much point doing so as he's incapable of understanding new facts, it would appear.
I don't believe its incapability, it's refusal to even want to caused by some deeper issue, no sane person would sign up to a forum for the pure purpose of trolling would they?I'll try not to again - there's not much point doing so as he's incapable of understanding new facts, it would appear.
It's the same category of person as conspiracy enthusiast (I would expect the venn diagrams to be illuminating) they genuinely believe they are smarter than others who are "brainwashed by the narrative"
JD said:
rscott said:
Apologies. I put another 10p in the idiot when I replied.
I'll try not to again - there's not much point doing so as he's incapable of understanding new facts, it would appear.
I don't believe its incapability, it's refusal to even want to caused by some deeper issue, no sane person would sign up to a forum for the pure purpose of trolling would they?I'll try not to again - there's not much point doing so as he's incapable of understanding new facts, it would appear.
It's the same category of person as conspiracy enthusiast (I would expect the venn diagrams to be illuminating) they genuinely believe they are smarter than others who are "brainwashed by the narrative"
Why don't you ask a few other EVers to pad the thread out a bit further from my last post. Bring back a bit of bull about trolling, website design, heat pumps.
The points in my last post are obvious and are going to seem obvious to most people buying a car. I can repeat the points I made in my last post after any short period of padding, or even after my holiday, and my points will be equally as true and make equally as much sense to anyone considering what car to buy. And even then at that point you won't manage a convincing reply.
The points in my last post are obvious and are going to seem obvious to most people buying a car. I can repeat the points I made in my last post after any short period of padding, or even after my holiday, and my points will be equally as true and make equally as much sense to anyone considering what car to buy. And even then at that point you won't manage a convincing reply.
SimonYorkshire said:
Bite? Did I say something provocative or ask a trick question?
Did you forget that EV range isn't 300 miles but is more likely 120 miles at 50mph? How will the extra complexity of the ice engine bother the driver? After all he won't be using the ice engine most of the time you reckon.
Yep, 20 miles per day average you reckon, the petrol/EV hybrid might have range on EV of 30 miles, more than enough to cover the 20 miles you reckon. But if the driver ever needs to do longer distance he won't have to put up with the restricted range or long charge time disadvantage of a pure EV will he? Now your EV with it's 120 mile range provided you only drive it at up to 50mph looks sick against the hybrid doesn't it? The only advantage of the EV with 120 mile range over the hybrid with 30 mlie range on EV power is for distances between 30 miles and 120 miles provided you're prepared to drive at low speeds. Or, if your EV gets twice the range (240 miles), the hybrid also benefits from the better battery tech and gets 60 mile range on EV power, and there is still a narrow window where the pure EV would have any sort of advantage.
I don't think 300 mile range is much less convenient for an ice driver than 500 mile range. Just have to stop for fuel a bit more often with 300 miles range than with 500 miles range but that's hardly an issue when a fuel stop takes a couple of mins regardless of 300 or 500 mile range and when there's petrol stations all over that you don't have to divert into town centres to reach. Plus if the ice is fitted in a petrol/EV hybrid, you'd reckon the driver won't have to stop for petrol ever anyway eh.
Did you forget that EV range isn't 300 miles but is more likely 120 miles at 50mph? How will the extra complexity of the ice engine bother the driver? After all he won't be using the ice engine most of the time you reckon.
Yep, 20 miles per day average you reckon, the petrol/EV hybrid might have range on EV of 30 miles, more than enough to cover the 20 miles you reckon. But if the driver ever needs to do longer distance he won't have to put up with the restricted range or long charge time disadvantage of a pure EV will he? Now your EV with it's 120 mile range provided you only drive it at up to 50mph looks sick against the hybrid doesn't it? The only advantage of the EV with 120 mile range over the hybrid with 30 mlie range on EV power is for distances between 30 miles and 120 miles provided you're prepared to drive at low speeds. Or, if your EV gets twice the range (240 miles), the hybrid also benefits from the better battery tech and gets 60 mile range on EV power, and there is still a narrow window where the pure EV would have any sort of advantage.
I don't think 300 mile range is much less convenient for an ice driver than 500 mile range. Just have to stop for fuel a bit more often with 300 miles range than with 500 miles range but that's hardly an issue when a fuel stop takes a couple of mins regardless of 300 or 500 mile range and when there's petrol stations all over that you don't have to divert into town centres to reach. Plus if the ice is fitted in a petrol/EV hybrid, you'd reckon the driver won't have to stop for petrol ever anyway eh.
I'm sure they don't exist but I'd love to see some statistics for who actually does 200+ mile journeys without reasonable length breaks. I certainly never have in 20 years of driving.
I can see the argument that for some proportion of the population a 100 mile range is going to be severely limiting (although it would be fine for me), but I'm pretty sure the proportion who would have any sort of difficultly dealing with a 200 mile real-world range has got to be vanishingly small. Especially for personally owned (rather than company) vehicles.
It's all a bit of a moot point for me because I don't need anywhere near that sort of range, so whether our next car is EV or petrol will come down to how the economies work out between the two.
I can see the argument that for some proportion of the population a 100 mile range is going to be severely limiting (although it would be fine for me), but I'm pretty sure the proportion who would have any sort of difficultly dealing with a 200 mile real-world range has got to be vanishingly small. Especially for personally owned (rather than company) vehicles.
It's all a bit of a moot point for me because I don't need anywhere near that sort of range, so whether our next car is EV or petrol will come down to how the economies work out between the two.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th October 19:37
kambites said:
I'm sure they don't exist but I'd love to see some statistics for who actually does 200+ mile journeys without reasonable length breaks. I certainly never have in 20 years of driving.
I used to follow the F1 races when they were in mainland Europe and as such I used to drive from the UK to Spain/France/Italy/Monaco/Luxembourg and GermanyEdited by kambites on Tuesday 24th October 19:37
My current EV would have been rubbish at that and if my EV was my only car and I wanted to do the above today I would just hire a BMW 5 Series diesel.
I once drove all the way down to Marbella from Essex in a 996 (circa 1500 miles) I made it in 23 hours / 4 fill ups / several coffee's and croissants - took me 2 days to get over the journey...
On the way home I broke that journey onto 2 - basically Marbella to Biaritz Day 1- Biaritz to Essex Day 2
Again my EV would have been rubbish at those journeys.
Other than that I happily sit with the vast majority of drivers nowadays and only do around 25 miles a day maximum.
new Nissan leaf model reviewed..
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/nissan/ni...
Looks a petty decent upgrade. heaps of the current model on the roads here, not exciting but probably where the real action is on evs at the moment.,
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/nissan/ni...
Looks a petty decent upgrade. heaps of the current model on the roads here, not exciting but probably where the real action is on evs at the moment.,
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