Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
Speaking as someone who is doing the sums on installing a Charge Point at a tourist destination, I'd get a 6.6kw one, they are about £1000. It would come out of the Marketing Budget, and ROI would come from more visitors paying for food/drink in the cafe or paying entrance fee to look around 
The government is not going to be making EV less attractive than ICE, so any road fund / road usage charges are still going to benefit EV Drivers.
I don't think there is anything else in the wall of text that needs replying to.
The government is not going to be making EV less attractive than ICE, so any road fund / road usage charges are still going to benefit EV Drivers.
I don't think there is anything else in the wall of text that needs replying to.
simple answer re: range, is try and find a typical family household, in the UK, that doesn't have two cars.
eg one can have the terrible EV range and just about get by.............. then an ICE for all those occasions where you drive more than 150 miles in a day.
or say 200 miles in the new leaf
or 300 miles say 1 year from now etc............
or that already if you can afford the tesla.
eg , we had a day out at the seaside. leaf would have just about done it. but we took my diesel car as I can't be bothered public charging and secondly its a much nicer, bigger car to drive.
life isn't that difficult !!!
anyway, the good news is the budget is tomorrow and the massive infrastructure roll out for LPG is coming. It's the future you know. Should anyone have a knackered old floaty petrol barge they can't afford to stick fuel in, or their stuck with it and rue the day they didn't buy the diesel version.
http://www.cityam.com/276007/philip-hammond-set-un...
Oh no, its not is it
what's that, £400m on charging points you say.............
but we all want LPG tanks...........
eg one can have the terrible EV range and just about get by.............. then an ICE for all those occasions where you drive more than 150 miles in a day.
or say 200 miles in the new leaf
or 300 miles say 1 year from now etc............
or that already if you can afford the tesla.
eg , we had a day out at the seaside. leaf would have just about done it. but we took my diesel car as I can't be bothered public charging and secondly its a much nicer, bigger car to drive.
life isn't that difficult !!!
anyway, the good news is the budget is tomorrow and the massive infrastructure roll out for LPG is coming. It's the future you know. Should anyone have a knackered old floaty petrol barge they can't afford to stick fuel in, or their stuck with it and rue the day they didn't buy the diesel version.
http://www.cityam.com/276007/philip-hammond-set-un...
Oh no, its not is it
what's that, £400m on charging points you say.............
but we all want LPG tanks...........
SimonYorkshire said:
Yes you can refuel an ice in 5 minutes.
I, and RXE again above, have explained the case for fast refuelling/charging doesn't need to rely on people driving 350 miles without stopping.
Let's look into your EV doing 3000 miles on £60 electric... You're probably basing this on a road speed much closer to 10mph than 70mph, on a kwh per mile basis of about 0.2 rather than about 0.35, but let's go with your 0.2... so that's 600kwh for 3000 miles. 600kwh at average electricity price is 14.37p so the electric to push the EV 3000 miles would cost £86.22. But this is while electricity to charge EVs doesn't attract road fuel duty... The government don't get a penny in road fuel duty from an EV doing 3000 miles but would have got £200 in road fuel duty from an ice doing 3000 miles, but still you don't think there will come a day if EVs start to replace enough ices when the electricity to run the EV 3000 miles will cost £286.22? Pro EVers should be careful what they wish for, they probably shouldn't hope they replace ices... And the £286.22 is without considering any extra costs incurred building new power plants or upgrading the electricity grid. The £86.22 would probably be closer to £150 at 70mph, in which case the £286.22 would be closer to £350... and by no means is it certain that by then the ice would still only cost much same to run over 3000 miles as it does currently while the EV costs £350 over 3000 miles, the ice can still refuel all over the place in under 5 minutes while EVs still take hours to charge even on a minority of superchargers... for which they might pay a premium to use over slower chargers.
Now considering average daily mileage is 20 miles, this is an average of 20 miles per day 7 days a week or 140 miles per week. if someone uses their car for anything besides commuting it must be that their daily average commute (over 7 days) is less than 20 miles. If someone only commutes 10 miles per day Monday to Friday that's only 50 miles per week, which leaves 90 miles per week unaccounted for as yet. It might turn out that the owner nips to the coast once every about 3 weeks, in which case it would turn out the nip to the coast would be a 270 mile round trip, in which case an EV with 150 mile range that takes hours to recharge would be the exact pain that I and RXE have pointed out. Even if there were a charger in the exact place you wished to park the EV at the coast it is unlikely to be a fast charger and if EV numbers are rising it is unlikely to be available when you arrive because some other EV user bet you to it... But let's suppose you are extremely lucky, there is a 22kw charger at the exact space where you'd like to park at the coast. You set off from home and travel 135miles to the coast and arrive at the coast with 15 miles of range remaining if you drove slowly enough to manage 135 miles range out of an EV rated at 150 miles range in the first place. At this point you need to put 120 miles range in the car to get home, How big is the battery on this EV with supposed 150 mile range and how long does it take to add 120 miles range? When you know your EV has finished charging are you already back waiting beside the car ready to shift it so that someone else may jump on the same charger? Was it another inconvenience for you having to go back to shift the car? How long has the next guy who wants to get on a charger been waiting to jump on a charger? If the electric from this charger cost only pennies, what was the incentive for whomever installed the charger to have installed the charger in the first place, considering the large cost of digging stuff up to install cables etc to run the charger from and the cost of the charger itself? Or does whomever installed the charger recoup that cost by selling the electricity at profit? Some have said such chargers will be free to use by EVers because local authorities see them as something that will attract future motorists... Well, I may be more attracted to places with free parking too, so why do such authorities tend to charge so much for parking even without EV charging facilities? Now consider a local coffee shop.. Is it better for them to lure in EV custom by providing chargers outside their shop in which case an EVer may park up for the best part of the day and only buy one coffee, or would it be better for the parking space to have far higher turnover of vehicles using that parking space with each customer buying a coffee? Same question after considering cost to install the charger? Same question if they don't charge for the electricity customers use but of course still have to pay for it themselves? You're not going to spend the entire day out in the coffee shop buying coffee and cake eh? Far more likely you park the car there, buy a token coffee and go see the sites while your car sits in their car park sapping electricity while preventing further throughput of customers.
Put it like that and it seems the biggest handicap for EVs is as already stated many times - crap range and crap charge time, hardly mitigated by ability to charge at home overnight. But inability to charge EVs in 5 minutes is a problem that will exist for a long time because electrical infrastructure couldn't handle 1 EV charging in 5 minutes at the coffee shop never mind half of the coffee shop's car park spaces having such a fast charger beside it. Ditto lamp posts, forecourts and other car parks, ditto the town's power supply, ditto the area's power supply, ditto the grid to that area, ditto power generation, ditto abilities of the batteries themselves which cannot be charged to capacity in 5 minutes even if the grid could support that.
It would be easy to imagine a coastal coffee shop management team EV charger feasibility discussion... Let's say it only cost £5k to install a charger at the coffee shop, they obviously want a decent ROI on that. For it to be of much benefit to a customer, given charge time the customer may need to spend a couple of hours on it during a visit and for there to be at least a 50% chance of it being available for use when the customer gets there. The 50% chance of it being free represents a 50% usage cycle for the charger, and since people wouldn't generally visit the coffee shop outside the hours of say 8am and 7pm the duty cycle is diminished to less than 25% of the day (6 hours). In 6 hours 3 people could spend hours each charging their EV. People don't generally visit the coast during weekdays but lets disregard that and pretend the locals take up the slack of tourists buying coffee during the week and even the locals use the coffee shop between 8am and 7pm. So the charger is used for 42 hours per week by 21 people per week or 1092 people per year. The charger spending 42 hours per week whilst consuming electricity at the rate of 22kw at 14.37p per kwh costs the coffee shop £132.77 per year in electricity so If ROI is achieved in 1 year the coffee shop would have had to make £4.70 out of each customer visit and this is assuming the EV charger was the lure that brought in those 1000 customers in the first place.The coffee shop would also have to consider that the £4.70 might actually be higher because the extra customers would imply more work / more staff. They might just pass on the £4.70 to customers who actually use the charger, in which case they'd be charging £2.35 per hour or £2.35 per 22kw, which works out to be only an extra 10.68p on top of the 14.37p the customer might pay for electricity at home. But if duty is charged on that electricity could work out to be 10.68p on top of the electricity plus duty they'd have paid if they could have charged their EV at home with enough range to do the entire trip. If the EVer could have done the entire trip without charging but arrived home with a near flat battery, he might have to think about how long the car would take to charge at the slower rate of charge at home versus how much time there is between getting home and having to go to work the next morning. If the car only uses 0.2kwh to go 1 mile at 20 mph the 10 mile trip might only use 2kwh and take half an hour but if he uses the heater which uses 2kw that's another 1kwh used up just for the heater so the 0.2kwh per mile becomes 0.3kwh per mile. Not to mention that an EV with 150 mile range at 20mph might use 0.3kwh at 60mph, at 60mph the 135 mile trip to the coast would have taken over 2 hours so with the heater on would sap another 4kwh out of the battery (equivalent to sapping 15 miles range)... The 150 mile rated EV might not even have made the 135 miles to the coast, not at 20mph with the heater on, not at 60mph with the heater on.
All problems and expenses that could so easily be avoided by running hybrids or range extended EVs, which aren't far off overall efficiency of pure EVs in any case.
I could have put 300 miles of range in an EV in the time it took to read that (not that I actually read it, but YKWIM).I, and RXE again above, have explained the case for fast refuelling/charging doesn't need to rely on people driving 350 miles without stopping.
Let's look into your EV doing 3000 miles on £60 electric... You're probably basing this on a road speed much closer to 10mph than 70mph, on a kwh per mile basis of about 0.2 rather than about 0.35, but let's go with your 0.2... so that's 600kwh for 3000 miles. 600kwh at average electricity price is 14.37p so the electric to push the EV 3000 miles would cost £86.22. But this is while electricity to charge EVs doesn't attract road fuel duty... The government don't get a penny in road fuel duty from an EV doing 3000 miles but would have got £200 in road fuel duty from an ice doing 3000 miles, but still you don't think there will come a day if EVs start to replace enough ices when the electricity to run the EV 3000 miles will cost £286.22? Pro EVers should be careful what they wish for, they probably shouldn't hope they replace ices... And the £286.22 is without considering any extra costs incurred building new power plants or upgrading the electricity grid. The £86.22 would probably be closer to £150 at 70mph, in which case the £286.22 would be closer to £350... and by no means is it certain that by then the ice would still only cost much same to run over 3000 miles as it does currently while the EV costs £350 over 3000 miles, the ice can still refuel all over the place in under 5 minutes while EVs still take hours to charge even on a minority of superchargers... for which they might pay a premium to use over slower chargers.
Now considering average daily mileage is 20 miles, this is an average of 20 miles per day 7 days a week or 140 miles per week. if someone uses their car for anything besides commuting it must be that their daily average commute (over 7 days) is less than 20 miles. If someone only commutes 10 miles per day Monday to Friday that's only 50 miles per week, which leaves 90 miles per week unaccounted for as yet. It might turn out that the owner nips to the coast once every about 3 weeks, in which case it would turn out the nip to the coast would be a 270 mile round trip, in which case an EV with 150 mile range that takes hours to recharge would be the exact pain that I and RXE have pointed out. Even if there were a charger in the exact place you wished to park the EV at the coast it is unlikely to be a fast charger and if EV numbers are rising it is unlikely to be available when you arrive because some other EV user bet you to it... But let's suppose you are extremely lucky, there is a 22kw charger at the exact space where you'd like to park at the coast. You set off from home and travel 135miles to the coast and arrive at the coast with 15 miles of range remaining if you drove slowly enough to manage 135 miles range out of an EV rated at 150 miles range in the first place. At this point you need to put 120 miles range in the car to get home, How big is the battery on this EV with supposed 150 mile range and how long does it take to add 120 miles range? When you know your EV has finished charging are you already back waiting beside the car ready to shift it so that someone else may jump on the same charger? Was it another inconvenience for you having to go back to shift the car? How long has the next guy who wants to get on a charger been waiting to jump on a charger? If the electric from this charger cost only pennies, what was the incentive for whomever installed the charger to have installed the charger in the first place, considering the large cost of digging stuff up to install cables etc to run the charger from and the cost of the charger itself? Or does whomever installed the charger recoup that cost by selling the electricity at profit? Some have said such chargers will be free to use by EVers because local authorities see them as something that will attract future motorists... Well, I may be more attracted to places with free parking too, so why do such authorities tend to charge so much for parking even without EV charging facilities? Now consider a local coffee shop.. Is it better for them to lure in EV custom by providing chargers outside their shop in which case an EVer may park up for the best part of the day and only buy one coffee, or would it be better for the parking space to have far higher turnover of vehicles using that parking space with each customer buying a coffee? Same question after considering cost to install the charger? Same question if they don't charge for the electricity customers use but of course still have to pay for it themselves? You're not going to spend the entire day out in the coffee shop buying coffee and cake eh? Far more likely you park the car there, buy a token coffee and go see the sites while your car sits in their car park sapping electricity while preventing further throughput of customers.
Put it like that and it seems the biggest handicap for EVs is as already stated many times - crap range and crap charge time, hardly mitigated by ability to charge at home overnight. But inability to charge EVs in 5 minutes is a problem that will exist for a long time because electrical infrastructure couldn't handle 1 EV charging in 5 minutes at the coffee shop never mind half of the coffee shop's car park spaces having such a fast charger beside it. Ditto lamp posts, forecourts and other car parks, ditto the town's power supply, ditto the area's power supply, ditto the grid to that area, ditto power generation, ditto abilities of the batteries themselves which cannot be charged to capacity in 5 minutes even if the grid could support that.
It would be easy to imagine a coastal coffee shop management team EV charger feasibility discussion... Let's say it only cost £5k to install a charger at the coffee shop, they obviously want a decent ROI on that. For it to be of much benefit to a customer, given charge time the customer may need to spend a couple of hours on it during a visit and for there to be at least a 50% chance of it being available for use when the customer gets there. The 50% chance of it being free represents a 50% usage cycle for the charger, and since people wouldn't generally visit the coffee shop outside the hours of say 8am and 7pm the duty cycle is diminished to less than 25% of the day (6 hours). In 6 hours 3 people could spend hours each charging their EV. People don't generally visit the coast during weekdays but lets disregard that and pretend the locals take up the slack of tourists buying coffee during the week and even the locals use the coffee shop between 8am and 7pm. So the charger is used for 42 hours per week by 21 people per week or 1092 people per year. The charger spending 42 hours per week whilst consuming electricity at the rate of 22kw at 14.37p per kwh costs the coffee shop £132.77 per year in electricity so If ROI is achieved in 1 year the coffee shop would have had to make £4.70 out of each customer visit and this is assuming the EV charger was the lure that brought in those 1000 customers in the first place.The coffee shop would also have to consider that the £4.70 might actually be higher because the extra customers would imply more work / more staff. They might just pass on the £4.70 to customers who actually use the charger, in which case they'd be charging £2.35 per hour or £2.35 per 22kw, which works out to be only an extra 10.68p on top of the 14.37p the customer might pay for electricity at home. But if duty is charged on that electricity could work out to be 10.68p on top of the electricity plus duty they'd have paid if they could have charged their EV at home with enough range to do the entire trip. If the EVer could have done the entire trip without charging but arrived home with a near flat battery, he might have to think about how long the car would take to charge at the slower rate of charge at home versus how much time there is between getting home and having to go to work the next morning. If the car only uses 0.2kwh to go 1 mile at 20 mph the 10 mile trip might only use 2kwh and take half an hour but if he uses the heater which uses 2kw that's another 1kwh used up just for the heater so the 0.2kwh per mile becomes 0.3kwh per mile. Not to mention that an EV with 150 mile range at 20mph might use 0.3kwh at 60mph, at 60mph the 135 mile trip to the coast would have taken over 2 hours so with the heater on would sap another 4kwh out of the battery (equivalent to sapping 15 miles range)... The 150 mile rated EV might not even have made the 135 miles to the coast, not at 20mph with the heater on, not at 60mph with the heater on.
All problems and expenses that could so easily be avoided by running hybrids or range extended EVs, which aren't far off overall efficiency of pure EVs in any case.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 21st November 13:02
Krikkit said:
EVs won't suit all of the population any more than a pickup truck, or an automatic 5L V8, or a manual 1L 3-pot would.
Agreed with that line.austinsmirk said:
simple answer re: range, is try and find a typical family household, in the UK, that doesn't have two cars.
eg one can have the terrible EV range and just about get by.............. then an ICE for all those occasions where you drive more than 150 miles in a day.
or say 200 miles in the new leaf
or 300 miles say 1 year from now etc............
or that already if you can afford the tesla.
eg , we had a day out at the seaside. leaf would have just about done it. but we took my diesel car as I can't be bothered public charging and secondly its a much nicer, bigger car to drive.
life isn't that difficult !!!
The fact that EV range and charge time issues can be got around by just not using an EV doesn't do much for the argument for EVs though does it?eg one can have the terrible EV range and just about get by.............. then an ICE for all those occasions where you drive more than 150 miles in a day.
or say 200 miles in the new leaf
or 300 miles say 1 year from now etc............
or that already if you can afford the tesla.
eg , we had a day out at the seaside. leaf would have just about done it. but we took my diesel car as I can't be bothered public charging and secondly its a much nicer, bigger car to drive.
life isn't that difficult !!!
austinsmirk said:
anyway, the good news is the budget is tomorrow and the massive infrastructure roll out for LPG is coming. It's the future you know. Should anyone have a knackered old floaty petrol barge they can't afford to stick fuel in, or their stuck with it and rue the day they didn't buy the diesel version.
http://www.cityam.com/276007/philip-hammond-set-un...
Oh no, its not is it
what's that, £400m on charging points you say.............
but we all want LPG tanks...........
The government are not directly spending £400m on charging points, the money is there for businesses to borrow to fit charge points. If you were the coffee shop owner in my above long post you might decide it not a good idea to fit a charging point... If people stay in the coffee shop for an average of 30 mins or at least spend all the money they're going to spend in the shop in 30mins, why would you want an EVer hogging a car park space for 2 hours and either costing you money over the 2 hours, or if the customer pays for the electricity but you can't make a decent profit out of it why would you want to offer this 'public service' if doing so implies a reduction in the shop profits due to lower turnover of customers?http://www.cityam.com/276007/philip-hammond-set-un...
Oh no, its not is it
what's that, £400m on charging points you say.............
but we all want LPG tanks...........
LPG infrastructure is already here. Government aren't spending £400m on petrol forecourts either but this doesn't mean filling with petrol will be more of a problem than charging EVs with electricity after the £400m has been borrowed by firms fitting EV chargers does it?
Roger Irrelevant said:
I could have put 300 miles of range in an EV in the time it took to read that (not that I actually read it, but YKWIM).
No you couldn't charge an EV for 300 mile range in the time it took me to type that long post, not a chance. Not on the 22kw charger I talked about in that long post and certainly not on the 6.6kw charger that Pherlopolous mentioned he is involved with getting installed at some tourist attraction. I could have written that post many times over in the time it took to charge an EV even on a supercharger. However, I could have filled an ice with petrol, diesel or LPG for much more than 300 miles range many times over in the time it took me to type that post. Thanks for helping show my points in this context. Of course I could have been sat on some forecourt typing that post while an EV charged, but I couldn't have been doing much else besides twiddling thumbs in the car if sat on some forecourt. pherlopolus said:
Speaking as someone who is doing the sums on installing a Charge Point at a tourist destination, I'd get a 6.6kw one, they are about £1000. It would come out of the Marketing Budget, and ROI would come from more visitors paying for food/drink in the cafe or paying entrance fee to look around
The government is not going to be making EV less attractive than ICE, so any road fund / road usage charges are still going to benefit EV Drivers.
I don't think there is anything else in the wall of text that needs replying to.
If an EV uses 250wh to travel a mile at 30mph the 300 miles would need 75kwh and I'm being generous with these figures. 75kwh would take over 11.36 hours to charge from a 6.6kw charger and again that's a generous underestimation. It probably doesn't say much for EVs or the tourist attraction if what attracts EVers to the site isn't the site itself but ability to charge their EV on site even though they have to pay for the privilege of entering the site to stand chance of using a charger and then being forced to spend about an hour at the site for every 25 miles of range they need to charge. Speaking of tourist attractions, how do they fit in with previous pro EV mentions of 'Average person drives 20 miles per day so average person doesn't need more range and existing EV range will be good enough for most peoples needs'? We could also say 'On average people don't visit tourist attractions', and yet they do, and the aeverage tourist probably came much further than 20 miles. Of course if they arrived at the attraction in any type of vehicle except a pure EV they could decide how long to stay there, not have length of visit dictated by how long it takes to charge a battery on a comparatively slow charger. The government is not going to be making EV less attractive than ICE, so any road fund / road usage charges are still going to benefit EV Drivers.
I don't think there is anything else in the wall of text that needs replying to.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 10:47
SimonYorkshire said:
RXE makes some of the same points I've been making.
Yes, and i could agree with both of you. But then that'd be three people (at least) who are wrong.Rather than me spending my entire working day responding to every ill informed point you've made i want to concentrate on the ones i can personally challenge, with direct experience and fact.
SimonYorkshire said:
Let's look into your EV doing 3000 miles on £60 electric... You're probably basing this on a road speed much closer to 10mph than 70mph, on a kwh per mile basis of about 0.2 rather than about 0.35, but let's go with your 0.2... so that's 600kwh for 3000 miles. 600kwh at average electricity price is 14.37p so the electric to push the EV 3000 miles would cost £86.22. But this is while electricity to charge EVs doesn't attract road fuel duty... The government don't get a penny in road fuel duty from an EV doing 3000 miles but would have got £200 in road fuel duty from an ice doing 3000 miles, but still you don't think there will come a day if EVs start to replace enough ices when the electricity to run the EV 3000 miles will cost £286.22? Pro EVers should be careful what they wish for, they probably shouldn't hope they replace ices... And the £286.22 is without considering any extra costs incurred building new power plants or upgrading the electricity grid. The £86.22 would probably be closer to £150 at 70mph, in which case the £286.22 would be closer to £350... and by no means is it certain that by then the ice would still only cost much same to run over 3000 miles as it does currently while the EV costs £350 over 3000 miles, the ice can still refuel all over the place in under 5 minutes while EVs still take hours to charge even on a minority of superchargers... for which they might pay a premium to use over slower chargers.
I have highlighted what i have first hand experience of and know to be incorrect.First off, i would like to address this 'refuel an ICE in under 5 minutes' thing - lets look at the process for refueling shall we..
1) get to the petrol station - even if it is on the same road you are traveling on, this still takes time.
2) you might have to wait before you can get to a free pump
3) you will have to undo your seatbelt, make sure you have your phone, keys, wallet etc
4) get out of the car, undo fuel filler cap
5) wait for pump to be authorised (or pay@pump, put card in, pin, wait for auth..)
6) you might have to remove any visible items from the inside of your car - sat nav stuck to the window? brief case on back seat?
7) fill the car with fuel - last time i did this on the S3 a full tank took me around 3 minutes
8) put fuel filler cap back on
9) lock car and walk to kiosk
10) you might have to wait to pay
11) if you pay by card you have to go though that process of card, pin, wait for auth.
12) walk back to car
13) unlock, get in, seat belt on
14) replace any items such as sat nav on windscreen
15) you might have to queue to leave the station
Unless you refuel in the middle of nowhere or at 3am chances are you will be held up at most of those points above.
That's without considering rain/cold etc
I am basing my math on my average of 4.7 miles per kWh (over around 1100 miles of everyday driving) - this makes my PPM 1.9p
My driving is pretty much leadfoot - around town i zip around on the motorway i sit between 70-80 sometimes further.
i am part of the charge now network so pay 9p per kWh
charge point install is £249 (with a £500 Government grant)
Those are MY costs, right now.
I don't care about how much its going to cost to upgrade the grid or any of that other s
t, they'll do it regardless so if it adds to everyone's electricity bill it will happen regardless of if you drive EV or ICE. Might as well enjoy the gravy train while its at your stop than let it pass you by.Here and now, i mean RIGHT NOW, ev is working for me, can you see that?
Interestingly..
You seem to be stuck in the past when defending your LPG but fortune telling and assuming whats going to happen in the future when attacking EV's
PixelpeepS3 said:
I have highlighted what i have first hand experience of and know to be incorrect.
First off, i would like to address this 'refuel an ICE in under 5 minutes' thing - lets look at the process for refueling shall we..
1) get to the petrol station - even if it is on the same road you are traveling on, this still takes time.
2) you might have to wait before you can get to a free pump
3) you will have to undo your seatbelt, make sure you have your phone, keys, wallet etc
4) get out of the car, undo fuel filler cap
5) wait for pump to be authorised (or pay@pump, put card in, pin, wait for auth..)
6) you might have to remove any visible items from the inside of your car - sat nav stuck to the window? brief case on back seat?
7) fill the car with fuel - last time i did this on the S3 a full tank took me around 3 minutes
8) put fuel filler cap back on
9) lock car and walk to kiosk
10) you might have to wait to pay
11) if you pay by card you have to go though that process of card, pin, wait for auth.
12) walk back to car
13) unlock, get in, seat belt on
14) replace any items such as sat nav on windscreen
15) you might have to queue to leave the station
Unless you refuel in the middle of nowhere or at 3am chances are you will be held up at most of those points above.
That's without considering rain/cold etc
I am basing my math on my average of 4.7 miles per kWh (over around 1100 miles of everyday driving) - this makes my PPM 1.9p
My driving is pretty much leadfoot - around town i zip around on the motorway i sit between 70-80 sometimes further.
i am part of the charge now network so pay 9p per kWh
charge point install is £249 (with a £500 Government grant)
Those are MY costs, right now.
I don't care about how much its going to cost to upgrade the grid or any of that other st, they'll do it regardless so if it adds to everyone's electricity bill it will happen regardless of if you drive EV or ICE. Might as well enjoy the gravy train while its at your stop than let it pass you by.
Here and now, i mean RIGHT NOW, ev is working for me, can you see that?
Interestingly..
You seem to be stuck in the past when defending your LPG but fortune telling and assuming whats going to happen in the future when attacking EV's
Wow. Personally I'm glad you have an EV now, as I'd hate to be stuck behind you at a pump whilst you are dicking around that much. Mine is more like pull in, park at pump, get out, fill up, pay, go. Every time I have done this and I've left the Sat Nav running, my ETA has gone up by 5 minutes, maybe 6 if there is a queue to pay. At the end of this exercise I typically have a full tank of fuel, a refreshing drink and a packet of cigs. As this is stuff I'd have to detour for anyway, total delay is around 0. First off, i would like to address this 'refuel an ICE in under 5 minutes' thing - lets look at the process for refueling shall we..
1) get to the petrol station - even if it is on the same road you are traveling on, this still takes time.
2) you might have to wait before you can get to a free pump
3) you will have to undo your seatbelt, make sure you have your phone, keys, wallet etc
4) get out of the car, undo fuel filler cap
5) wait for pump to be authorised (or pay@pump, put card in, pin, wait for auth..)
6) you might have to remove any visible items from the inside of your car - sat nav stuck to the window? brief case on back seat?
7) fill the car with fuel - last time i did this on the S3 a full tank took me around 3 minutes
8) put fuel filler cap back on
9) lock car and walk to kiosk
10) you might have to wait to pay
11) if you pay by card you have to go though that process of card, pin, wait for auth.
12) walk back to car
13) unlock, get in, seat belt on
14) replace any items such as sat nav on windscreen
15) you might have to queue to leave the station
Unless you refuel in the middle of nowhere or at 3am chances are you will be held up at most of those points above.
That's without considering rain/cold etc
I am basing my math on my average of 4.7 miles per kWh (over around 1100 miles of everyday driving) - this makes my PPM 1.9p
My driving is pretty much leadfoot - around town i zip around on the motorway i sit between 70-80 sometimes further.
i am part of the charge now network so pay 9p per kWh
charge point install is £249 (with a £500 Government grant)
Those are MY costs, right now.
I don't care about how much its going to cost to upgrade the grid or any of that other s
t, they'll do it regardless so if it adds to everyone's electricity bill it will happen regardless of if you drive EV or ICE. Might as well enjoy the gravy train while its at your stop than let it pass you by.Here and now, i mean RIGHT NOW, ev is working for me, can you see that?
Interestingly..
You seem to be stuck in the past when defending your LPG but fortune telling and assuming whats going to happen in the future when attacking EV's
If there are massive queues at the pumps? Cool, I'll just go to the next one.
None of that is annoying enough to put up with a dull, compromised car imo. As here and RIGHT NOW, an EV wouldn't work for me in the slightest. I could do 3 miles a day or I could do 300. It may work on the 3 miles days, but the 300? Long distances for work with an enforced 30 minute stop?
f
k that. SimonYorkshire said:
If an EV uses 250wh to travel a mile at 30mph the 300 miles would need 75kwh and I'm being generous with these figures. 75kwh would take over 11.36 hours to charge from a 6.6kw charger and again that's a generous underestimation. It probably doesn't say much for EVs or the tourist attraction if what attracts EVers to the site isn't the site itself but ability to charge their EV on site even though they have to pay for the privilege of entering the site to stand chance of using a charger and then being forced to spend about an hour at the site for every 25 miles of range they need to charge. Speaking of tourist attractions, how do they fit in with previous pro EV mentions of 'Average person drives 20 miles per day so average person doesn't need more range and existing EV range will be good enough for most peoples needs'? We could also say 'On average people don't visit tourist attractions', and yet they do, and the aeverage tourist probably came much further than 20 miles. Of course if they arrived at the attraction in any type of vehicle except a pure EV they could decide how long to stay there, not have length of visit dictated by how long it takes to charge a battery on a comparatively slow charger.
Someone might just plug it in for a top-up while they are having food/coffee/ride on trains. You apparently don't have any experience on using an EV so why comment? in our experience, most of our visitors travel under 20 miles to get to us, they could easily get that back in the couple of hours they are there. If they are travelling a longer distance their are 2 rapid charger 10 and 20 miles away in each direction.Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 10:47
You quite obviously can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, and discount primary research, so why keep on making incorrect assumptions on EV use?
SimonYorkshire said:
Roger Irrelevant said:
I could have put 300 miles of range in an EV in the time it took to read that (not that I actually read it, but YKWIM).
No you couldn't charge an EV for 300 mile range in the time it took me to type that long post, not a chance. Not on the 22kw charger I talked about in that long post and certainly not on the 6.6kw charger that Pherlopolous mentioned he is involved with getting installed at some tourist attraction. I could have written that post many times over in the time it took to charge an EV even on a supercharger. However, I could have filled an ice with petrol, diesel or LPG for much more than 300 miles range many times over in the time it took me to type that post. Thanks for helping show my points in this context. Of course I could have been sat on some forecourt typing that post while an EV charged, but I couldn't have been doing much else besides twiddling thumbs in the car if sat on some forecourt. No, Pixelpeep.
You really are grasping at straws in your list above!
Are you assuming this is refuelling at rush hour? How would you fancy your chances of refuelling an EV on a forecourt at rush hour... If there is a que for ice cars which can refuel in a few minutes even if we were to accept your list, how long would you have to wait to charge in a que of EVs?
Any time besides rush hour there probably is no que, not for a pump, not waiting to pay. Certainly not waiting to pay if you pay at the pump.
Remove seat belt takes time eh? Pulling wallet out of pocket takes time? You're having a laugh unless you're unlucky enough to regularly experience some annoying person who you expect to set off almost immediately after getting back into their car but instead they start opening pop and crisps, start applying makeup and embark on a map reading debate with someone in the passenger seat. I am most other people set off from the forecourt about 10 seconds after getting back in the car and since getting back in the car and setting off involves basically the opposite of getting out of the car including locking and seatbelts this shows how long it takes to do so.
We all remove satnavs from windscreens?
If you pay at a the pump how long is a the walk back to the car?
I find it takes about 3 seconds to remove seatbelt, remove key from ignition and lock the car (using keyfob which mysteriously happens to be in my hand after removing key from ignition lol) and wallet happens to be in my pocket so keys go in one pocket as wallet comes out the other regardless of if I have to walk to a kiosk or walk to the other side of the car to the pay by card machine. That's if I even lock the car, probably not if I'm paying on the forecourt card machine and stood beside the car all the time.
You say you're happy with your EV, good for you then, nobody is saying all EVers are in denial and would really prefer an ice or hybrid if they were honest with themselves. I would say you're not totally realistic in your list though. Plus most of the time your list implies would apply equally or more so to EVs... Locking, walking around the car, seatbelt, satnav(??), filling/charging (oh dear), queing (oh dear), messing with some phone app (?? oh dear). Don't forget checking tyres, polishing screen and lights, topping up screenwash. You could have included checking engine oil level which EVers don't have to do - that's a massive point against ices and hybrids eh. Mind you I could probably do a full service on an ice in the time you could expect to sit on a forecourt charging an EV just once.
You really are grasping at straws in your list above!
Are you assuming this is refuelling at rush hour? How would you fancy your chances of refuelling an EV on a forecourt at rush hour... If there is a que for ice cars which can refuel in a few minutes even if we were to accept your list, how long would you have to wait to charge in a que of EVs?
Any time besides rush hour there probably is no que, not for a pump, not waiting to pay. Certainly not waiting to pay if you pay at the pump.
Remove seat belt takes time eh? Pulling wallet out of pocket takes time? You're having a laugh unless you're unlucky enough to regularly experience some annoying person who you expect to set off almost immediately after getting back into their car but instead they start opening pop and crisps, start applying makeup and embark on a map reading debate with someone in the passenger seat. I am most other people set off from the forecourt about 10 seconds after getting back in the car and since getting back in the car and setting off involves basically the opposite of getting out of the car including locking and seatbelts this shows how long it takes to do so.
We all remove satnavs from windscreens?
If you pay at a the pump how long is a the walk back to the car?
I find it takes about 3 seconds to remove seatbelt, remove key from ignition and lock the car (using keyfob which mysteriously happens to be in my hand after removing key from ignition lol) and wallet happens to be in my pocket so keys go in one pocket as wallet comes out the other regardless of if I have to walk to a kiosk or walk to the other side of the car to the pay by card machine. That's if I even lock the car, probably not if I'm paying on the forecourt card machine and stood beside the car all the time.
You say you're happy with your EV, good for you then, nobody is saying all EVers are in denial and would really prefer an ice or hybrid if they were honest with themselves. I would say you're not totally realistic in your list though. Plus most of the time your list implies would apply equally or more so to EVs... Locking, walking around the car, seatbelt, satnav(??), filling/charging (oh dear), queing (oh dear), messing with some phone app (?? oh dear). Don't forget checking tyres, polishing screen and lights, topping up screenwash. You could have included checking engine oil level which EVers don't have to do - that's a massive point against ices and hybrids eh. Mind you I could probably do a full service on an ice in the time you could expect to sit on a forecourt charging an EV just once.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 11:17
bodhi said:
Wow. Personally I'm glad you have an EV now, as I'd hate to be stuck behind you at a pump whilst you are dicking around that much. Mine is more like pull in, park at pump, get out, fill up, pay, go. Every time I have done this and I've left the Sat Nav running, my ETA has gone up by 5 minutes, maybe 6 if there is a queue to pay. At the end of this exercise I typically have a full tank of fuel, a refreshing drink and a packet of cigs. As this is stuff I'd have to detour for anyway, total delay is around 0.
If there are massive queues at the pumps? Cool, I'll just go to the next one.
None of that is annoying enough to put up with a dull, compromised car imo. As here and RIGHT NOW, an EV wouldn't work for me in the slightest. I could do 3 miles a day or I could do 300. It may work on the 3 miles days, but the 300? Long distances for work with an enforced 30 minute stop?
fk that.
Agreed with that Bodhi! If there are massive queues at the pumps? Cool, I'll just go to the next one.
None of that is annoying enough to put up with a dull, compromised car imo. As here and RIGHT NOW, an EV wouldn't work for me in the slightest. I could do 3 miles a day or I could do 300. It may work on the 3 miles days, but the 300? Long distances for work with an enforced 30 minute stop?
f
k that. pherlopolus said:
Someone might just plug it in for a top-up while they are having food/coffee/ride on trains. You apparently don't have any experience on using an EV so why comment? in our experience, most of our visitors travel under 20 miles to get to us, they could easily get that back in the couple of hours they are there. If they are travelling a longer distance their are 2 rapid charger 10 and 20 miles away in each direction.
You quite obviously can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, and discount primary research, so why keep on making incorrect assumptions on EV use?
Suppose I visit a mate who lives just around the corner from a forecourt. I don't need to think about stopping at the forecourt to top up with the equivalent of 15 miles range... what's that about 3 litres worth of petrol? No, if I'm visiting the forecourt it's because I'm going to stick maybe 40L in the tank and be out of there in few minutes. The difference in time between putting in 3L of fuel and putting in 40L of fuel is about 30 seconds! You quite obviously can't put yourself in someone else's shoes, and discount primary research, so why keep on making incorrect assumptions on EV use?
So why would a visitor to a tourist attraction prefer to park an EV at a charge point to get the equivalent range of only 3L of petrol in an ice car if that implies that they only have to put themselves out even very slightly by perhaps parking where they wouldn't otherwise have parked in the car park? We know the answers and they concern the EV issues which are range and charge time.
Why would the charger only be 6.6kw? Again we know the answers, they concern cost of chargers and charger installation especially for bigger capacity chargers and inability of the grid supply to the site to support bigger capacity chargers. The grid issues are far more costly to overcome than the charger issues.
If the EV owner needs the extra range that is the equivalent to only 3L of petrol, if he doesn't stick his car on charge at the attraction he will only have to spend the same amount of time the car will take to charge with equivalent of 3L of petrol on some other forecourt... He might as well do it here while he's visiting the attraction than have to spend a far more boring hour or so on a forecourt. The couple of minutes it takes the ice owner to fill with 3L, 40L, 100L of ice fuel on any forecourt is a none issue.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 11:42
SimonYorkshire said:
Suppose I visit a mate who lives just around the corner from a forecourt. I don't need to think about stopping at the forecourt to top up with the equivalent of 15 miles range... what's that about 3 litres worth of petrol? No, if I'm visiting the forecourt it's because I'm going to stick maybe 40L in the tank and be out of there in few minutes. The difference in time between putting in 3L of fuel and putting in 40L of fuel is about 30 seconds!
So why would a visitor to a tourist attraction prefer to park an EV at a charge point to get the equivalent range of only 3L of petrol in an ice car if that implies that they only have to put themselves out even very slightly by perhaps parking where they wouldn't otherwise have parked in the car park? We know the answers and they concern the EV issues which are range and charge time.
Why would the charger only be 6.6kw? Again we know the answers, they concern cost of chargers and charger installation especially for bigger capacity chargers and inability of the grid supply to the site to support bigger capacity chargers. The grid issues are far more costly to overcome than the charger issues.
If the EV owner needs the extra range that is the equivalent to only 3L of petrol, if he doesn't stick his car on charge at the attraction he will only have to spend the same amount of time the car will take to charge with equivalent of 3L of petrol on some other forecourt... He might as well do it here while he's visiting the attraction than have to spend a far more boring hour or so on a forecourt. The couple of minutes it takes the ice owner to fill with 3L, 40L, 100L of ice fuel on any forecourt is a none issue.
I think you are making assumptions again, I am betting they wouldn't actually need to charge. But might think it's a nice touch, customer service etc, do you let people who visit you for work top up with LPG for free?So why would a visitor to a tourist attraction prefer to park an EV at a charge point to get the equivalent range of only 3L of petrol in an ice car if that implies that they only have to put themselves out even very slightly by perhaps parking where they wouldn't otherwise have parked in the car park? We know the answers and they concern the EV issues which are range and charge time.
Why would the charger only be 6.6kw? Again we know the answers, they concern cost of chargers and charger installation especially for bigger capacity chargers and inability of the grid supply to the site to support bigger capacity chargers. The grid issues are far more costly to overcome than the charger issues.
If the EV owner needs the extra range that is the equivalent to only 3L of petrol, if he doesn't stick his car on charge at the attraction he will only have to spend the same amount of time the car will take to charge with equivalent of 3L of petrol on some other forecourt... He might as well do it here while he's visiting the attraction than have to spend a far more boring hour or so on a forecourt. The couple of minutes it takes the ice owner to fill with 3L, 40L, 100L of ice fuel on any forecourt is a none issue.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 11:42
We live about 8 miles away from it and never felt the urge to charge on site.
We get you think it's a bad idea to push EV's. but I don't think you are changing anyone's opinion either.
As the saying goes. "I would Agree with you, but then we would both be wrong"
pherlopolus said:
Most of the companies I have worked for have strongly recommended a 30 min break every 2 hours of driving.... Works for me.
How much range can you pick up from a 30 min charge from your 6.6kw charger? If you can drive 4 miles on 1kwh (this would be without the heater on, nice eh..) 26.4 miles. Travel for 2 hours in a car might expect to cover 100 miles, why would I want to only stick in only 26.4 miles range having just used 100 miles range? I mean... Suppose I set off with a realistic 150 miles range, after 100 miles of use that's down to 50 miles range. Leave a forecourt having added only 26.4 miles range now I'd have only 76.4 miles range and could only drive for another hour and a half before breaking down battery flat at the side of the road with no chance of the AA bringing a jerry can. Perhaps the current company you work for should recommend you stop for a 2 hour break after driving for 2 hours and not to use the heater or aircon.
Edit - incidentally our posts crossed... I wasn't intentionally disregarding your last post (which I think is fair and well balanced) when I replied to your earlier post mate.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 12:03
andrewrob said:
How long does it take to fill up with LPG? For me, quite a while.
Good point! Slightly longer than filling with petrol.... ... ... And this is enough to be a point of concern for some people considering converting to LPG even though they have worked out for themselves that they would save £thousands in just a couple of years running on LPG. Good luck expecting people to spend more money than their current ice vehicle is worth to switch to an EV that has comparative crap range, the comparatively small number of chargers charge at different speeds, chargers that are just as likely to be tucked round the back of some gym on the outskirts of a town than on a forecourt and might not be available for use when you get there, no petrol backup, your range goes down if your use the heater. If you like add into the mix no chance of removing the thing (LPG stuff) and refitting to the next car they buy which would make the next car cost half price to run, got to have off-street parking to run an EV and actually park off-street to charge on a very regular basis (might want to clear the narrow drive and garage you didn't previously use), battery concerns, switching from a lifestyle that doesn't need to weigh up feasibility of any journey considering range, charge time, charge rate and charger locations to one that does. Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 22 November 12:29
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