Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
SimonYorkshire said:
RobDickinson said:
no its not , the new cells are more energy dense, thats irrespective of the cell size,its a basic fundamental thing please try to keep up
Point to somewhere that can explain this then Rob, because you (and no-one else here) has. It's been a long time since I found a seemingly regularly updated website who's sole subject was Li-Ion batteries and asked people who try to make the points you do to point out the 'new battery developments' on the site. Nobody ever has pointed to such new battery tech on such authoritative site - but it's common knowledge that recent EVs benefit from better battery packaging (that has now reached the limits of better battery packaging).Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 22 September 00:56
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610792/this-bat...
Is MIT good enough?
Evanivitch said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Same old banging head arguments. You wont' be doing 98% of charging at home if you commute far enough eh?
Same old Simple Simon.In your own numbers Simon:
- What's the average daily mileage in the UK?
- What's the real world range of a 40kWh car?
- How many kWh will the average commuter use daily?
- At 7kW AC home charging, how long will it take to charge a 40kWh car?
Please provide references and show your workings.
He isn't sure of it, but thinks the answer might be 10 new nuclear power stations or something like that...please let him know if he got it right this time.
My new word for today is Mumpsimus
Applies the Mr Yorkshire quite well
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumpsimus?wprov=sf...
I think it was 14 nuclear power stations, and we need them next year.
Applies the Mr Yorkshire quite well
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumpsimus?wprov=sf...
I think it was 14 nuclear power stations, and we need them next year.
SimonYorkshire said:
But still - It is only mainly battery packaging that makes the difference. You wouldn't assume that if 20700 cells became 25000 cells that still only take the same physical volume the newer battery would have more electrical capacity. As implied, no use talking number of cells or 'this will be coming next year' unless you 're high up in the battery development ranks - can you instead point to authorities on the subject who can? The proof is in the pudding anyway - EVs still have s*** range and s*** length of charge times and S*** convenience for longer journeys due to long charge times and places to charge..
Like I said if you I needed to explain this bit there’s not point discussing it...The numbers refer to the size of the cell format, not the number of.
SimonYorkshire said:
Point to somewhere that can explain this then Rob, because you (and no-one else here) has. It's been a long time since I found a seemingly regularly updated website who's sole subject was Li-Ion batteries and asked people who try to make the points you do to point out the 'new battery developments' on the site. Nobody ever has pointed to such new battery tech on such authoritative site - but it's common knowledge that recent EVs benefit from better battery packaging (that has now reached the limits of better battery packaging). I mean, Rob, Wow if it's true what you're saying... Why don't you bring the MOD up to speed on the fact that they need not develop new nuclear subs, in just a few years they'll be able to have subs powered by batteries (and of course unlike WW2 subs no engine eh Rob)? MOD will be closely monitoring battery tech - and they know they need nuclear subs because batteries don't and won't cut it. If batteries could cut it that would save the country £billions. Countries planning new subs and aircraft carriers (nukes) are still planning the nukes even for stuff they will be building in a decade.
Lead? Lithium?Edited by SimonYorkshire on Saturday 22 September 00:56
No mate. Sodium ZEBRA.
Complete Petrolhead talking here,..... but,.....
EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within about 3 years
As soon as this happens, and Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Vauxhall etc all do the same, then we're at the tipping point at which all non petrolheads will switch to EV's simply because they're cheaper
Charging will resolve itself as soon as local councils realise they can make some money from it. Induction charging, rather than plug in, will be mainstream in a few years and then we'll see the return of the 'parking meter machine', although it won't be taking 20p's and allowing you to park for 4 mins per coin, instead it'll be indicating an induction charging spot where it'll happily take money for parking and charging, both in a wire-less through a phone app sort of way. With money to be made from it, induction chargers will explode in popularity and be along both sides of every street. Not as much re-wiring as you think as the induction chargers will slow load from the existing electrical network and then fast discharge into the cars.
Increased countrywide electrical demand is already being resolved as there's actually an enormous re-wiring of the ultra high capacity grids across all of europe going on at the moment. It's creating a massive european-scandinavian super grid that is levelling the intermittency of renewable generation (generally not windy in Germany and the UK at the same time as there's a 750 km east-west separation and wind is generally in the form of 800 km anti-cyclones that run west to east). Brexit is a small pain in the a@#e, but the grid is pushing ahead with the UK fully integrated simply because it results in much cheaper electricity.
So, as a Petrolhead I think 3 to 5 years before EV's reach that critical mass that means petrol begins to be seen in the same way the major transport fuel of 100 years ago began to be seen. Major transport fuel of 100 years ago? - hay for horses.
EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within about 3 years
As soon as this happens, and Citroen, Fiat, Ford, Vauxhall etc all do the same, then we're at the tipping point at which all non petrolheads will switch to EV's simply because they're cheaper
Charging will resolve itself as soon as local councils realise they can make some money from it. Induction charging, rather than plug in, will be mainstream in a few years and then we'll see the return of the 'parking meter machine', although it won't be taking 20p's and allowing you to park for 4 mins per coin, instead it'll be indicating an induction charging spot where it'll happily take money for parking and charging, both in a wire-less through a phone app sort of way. With money to be made from it, induction chargers will explode in popularity and be along both sides of every street. Not as much re-wiring as you think as the induction chargers will slow load from the existing electrical network and then fast discharge into the cars.
Increased countrywide electrical demand is already being resolved as there's actually an enormous re-wiring of the ultra high capacity grids across all of europe going on at the moment. It's creating a massive european-scandinavian super grid that is levelling the intermittency of renewable generation (generally not windy in Germany and the UK at the same time as there's a 750 km east-west separation and wind is generally in the form of 800 km anti-cyclones that run west to east). Brexit is a small pain in the a@#e, but the grid is pushing ahead with the UK fully integrated simply because it results in much cheaper electricity.
So, as a Petrolhead I think 3 to 5 years before EV's reach that critical mass that means petrol begins to be seen in the same way the major transport fuel of 100 years ago began to be seen. Major transport fuel of 100 years ago? - hay for horses.
Lorne said:
Complete Petrolhead talking here,..... but,.....
EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within 3 years.
Surely if the range keeps improving then it will cause massive depreciation for the existing electric vehicles so even if the electric vehicles are the same price as the petrol models they won't hold their value as well. Ironically they many need to stop improving in range and the batteries stop getting cheaper to be viable in order to stabilise the depreciation on them. EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within 3 years.
CSLM3CSL said:
Lorne said:
Complete Petrolhead talking here,..... but,.....
EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within 3 years.
Surely if the range keeps improving then it will cause massive depreciation for the existing electric vehicles so even if the electric vehicles are the same price as the petrol models they won't hold their value as well. Ironically they many need to stop improving in range and the batteries stop getting cheaper to be viable in order to stabilise the depreciation on them. EV range is creeping up year on year
EV price is creeping down year on year
I think a completely equivalent to the petrol version eGolf will hit price and range parity within 3 years.
On the plus side though, electric engines generate remarkably little heat.
Your average petrol (or diesel) engine makes 200 bhp of motive power, but generates 400 bhp equivalent of heat whilst doing it. A lot of the heat goes out of the exhaust and the remainder goes out through the radiator. Once you get up to 600 bhp of motive power, then getting rid of heat becomes a real problem. How many radiators in a V12 Aston or the Veyron?
600 bhp of motive power in an EV is easy; Tesla territory. 1200 bhp is also easy. Fancy 2000 perhaps? Bit like the difference between a Spitfire and an English Electric Lightening.
There isn’t enough lithium in the world.
There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
Other than that, great.
Road pricing will replace fuel duty and your electric car motoring will be just as expensive as any other.
There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
Other than that, great.
Road pricing will replace fuel duty and your electric car motoring will be just as expensive as any other.
Honeywell said:
There isn’t enough lithium in the world.
There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
None of this is a problem given how few EVs have been sold so far.There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
Honeywell said:
There isn’t enough lithium in the world.
There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
Other than that, great.
Road pricing will replace fuel duty and your electric car motoring will be just as expensive as any other.
Road pricing is the only thing you got right there lol. There isn’t enough copper in the local grid to carry the amps.
There isn’t enough generation capacity to make the amps.
There isn’t enough renewable or nuclear generation to save any carbon dioxide emission which I rather the whole point.
Other than that, great.
Road pricing will replace fuel duty and your electric car motoring will be just as expensive as any other.
RobDickinson said:
Petrol car values will drop like a stone. Who's going to want such an expensive to run cheap used car?
As for new ev prices yes there's an early adopter cost now everyone knows that.
The kona has the same range as the model x and half the price. If you are just bothered about range.
Overall cars of any sort are as cheap as chips, especially if second hand. At the moment I’m doing a 60 mile each way commute. I have several options for choice of vehicle, and the price of fuel would range from £200 a week (4.6 litre Defender) to £60 a week (Alfa 156 JTD 10v).As for new ev prices yes there's an early adopter cost now everyone knows that.
The kona has the same range as the model x and half the price. If you are just bothered about range.
I have considered taking the train, but off peak it would be £200 a week + cabs and I’d be late for work. Peak time (i.e. actually being at work on time) is £250 a week + cabs.
Given that they’re paying me 45p a mile (yeah, yeah, taxable after 10k miles), it’s a no brainer to drive.
We’re quite a long way off actually buying an EV to really save money. Sure, the electricity is cheaper, but the depreciation is high, as are the monthly payments. Depreciation on the 156 is nil, and the monthly payments are nil.
Depreciation is lower. Auto trader recently found you could buy a 1 year old ev run it for a year and sell at a profit.
Leafs here are starting at around $10k, compared to a similar ice hatchback they will cost thousands a year less to run.
If you can make back the purchase price in 4 years on savings who would buy the ice car?
Leafs here are starting at around $10k, compared to a similar ice hatchback they will cost thousands a year less to run.
If you can make back the purchase price in 4 years on savings who would buy the ice car?
RobDickinson said:
If only there was some other way to charge.
There isn't. There's only top-ups. A network that covers the whole of the UK homes will take years, no, decades, to implement. If ever. It's not going to happen with any great urgency unless petrol cars vanish overnight and as they won't there will still be a market for them for a long time yet.
The death of petrol cars is vastly over exaggerated.
Cold said:
Lorne said:
Your average petrol (or diesel) engine makes 200 bhp of motive power, but generates 400 bhp equivalent of heat whilst doing it.
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