Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
danp said:
The Crack Fox said:
Yup. The rise of EVs, environmental pressures and rising fuel costs are driving manufacturers to make engines with some incredible economy in recent years. 20 years ago most folks seemed happy with 30MPG in their family transport, now most stuff seems to do 50+ MPG and, if you're not in a rush, much more. ICE tech evolves and will have a place on the forecourt for many years more, albeit probably with some titchy motor to satisfy tax/EU legislation nonsense.
I quite like chugging along in my big ol' diesel doing 50MPG. I can do 600 odd miles without stopping if needed, can refuel anywhere in the world in minutes, can get it serviced anywhere, can refuel from a jerry can if I get it wrong, have plenty of shove at motorway speeds and and and... above all, I don't want an EV. To spend such a huge amount of money on a new (or new-ish) car I have to really want it. Yet EVs are just appliances to me. There are so many more interesting ways to spend your money on transport.
Sorry but you’re an unusual case, most people do want to use the car as an appliance as opposed to having the kind of adventures in old bangers that you write so eloquently about.I quite like chugging along in my big ol' diesel doing 50MPG. I can do 600 odd miles without stopping if needed, can refuel anywhere in the world in minutes, can get it serviced anywhere, can refuel from a jerry can if I get it wrong, have plenty of shove at motorway speeds and and and... above all, I don't want an EV. To spend such a huge amount of money on a new (or new-ish) car I have to really want it. Yet EVs are just appliances to me. There are so many more interesting ways to spend your money on transport.
Your 600 mile non-stoppers - which method do you favour, nappies or the more hardcore catheter?
Stirred up the hornets nest again with my couple of comments the other evening lol.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
This thread is like a hornets nest in more ways than one, too many people each trying to put over the same tired old reasoning. At one stage - when nobody who wasn't an early EV adopter even seemed to bother reading this thread, i was the only person who raised doubts about EV's / batteries ' charging / tech but my arguments held up very well to the EVers despite their attempts at mockery.
The whole world hasn't got it wrong (re someone's post above), most of the world is in ice cars. EV's are not free to use, are not the answer to the world energy crisis, do cause pollution, are inconvenient and are very boring especially if you need to stop on a journey to charge where in an ice car you'd just fill up (minutes) and go.
Who was it (maybe not you) who reckoned they worked in developing EV's? They said their EV development firm had onsite massive diesel generators... If we presumed this was because the grid couldn't supply enough electricity to that one site to keep it's (few) EVs charged up we'd be presuming correctly. Diesel generators at a firm we also might presume would want to highlight EV's 'green credentials' All this talk about wind power but diesel gennies? The guy who worked there (developing EVs) also admitted on this thread that to save the money it would cost to charge his car at home he charged it at work (only possible when the gennies were running).
Vampire losses... Many definitions including when a battery self discharges, and in financial terms including losing X quid a week in depreciation, devaluation even when a new model EV comes out.
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
This thread is like a hornets nest in more ways than one, too many people each trying to put over the same tired old reasoning. At one stage - when nobody who wasn't an early EV adopter even seemed to bother reading this thread, i was the only person who raised doubts about EV's / batteries ' charging / tech but my arguments held up very well to the EVers despite their attempts at mockery.
The whole world hasn't got it wrong (re someone's post above), most of the world is in ice cars. EV's are not free to use, are not the answer to the world energy crisis, do cause pollution, are inconvenient and are very boring especially if you need to stop on a journey to charge where in an ice car you'd just fill up (minutes) and go.
Max_Torque said:
It's also worth noting that "50 mpg" might sound ok today, but quite quickly, that's going to be considered as a heroically opulent consumption. So far, after two years and around 15k miles, my EV has averaged just under 200 mpg!
Your EV doesn't use any gallons. Is the 200mpg what you calculate as 'mpg cost equivalence'?Who was it (maybe not you) who reckoned they worked in developing EV's? They said their EV development firm had onsite massive diesel generators... If we presumed this was because the grid couldn't supply enough electricity to that one site to keep it's (few) EVs charged up we'd be presuming correctly. Diesel generators at a firm we also might presume would want to highlight EV's 'green credentials' All this talk about wind power but diesel gennies? The guy who worked there (developing EVs) also admitted on this thread that to save the money it would cost to charge his car at home he charged it at work (only possible when the gennies were running).
Vampire losses... Many definitions including when a battery self discharges, and in financial terms including losing X quid a week in depreciation, devaluation even when a new model EV comes out.
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
SimonYorkshire said:
Stirred up the hornets nest again with my couple of comments the other evening lol.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others
We are also finding 'never adopters' who have lost sight of the fact that in 10, 20 years the technology will change out of all recognition.What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others
We will probably have a situation where, in the middle of the night, your electric car will drive itself round the corner to a local charging area, charge itself up, and drive itself back.
GT119 said:
Lorne said:
Good points, and in my defence I must admit I haven't read all 175 pages of comments
The thread is just over a year old and I have followed it from the start.I'm in two minds about recommending anyone to read it all as it has been very entertaining but also painful to read sometimes.
Some of the comments, self-proclamations and blinkered denial are highly amusing, predominantly from one poster ooop north who just cannot help himself from typing theses worth of drivel about how the whole world has got it wrong when it comes to EVs and that combustible fuels such as hydrogen and LPG will win the day.
I had the pleasure of driving an electric van yesterday, perfect in London but I'd imagine less so out of it.
Was speaking to an early adopter too, he had some interesting and unbiased views on the whole subject.
After my experience with the van I could be swayed into a car for business use, I just need to be convinced it'll get me home everyday.
Also everyone keeps mentioning national grid, they'll cope fine. Your local DNO will struggle.
Was speaking to an early adopter too, he had some interesting and unbiased views on the whole subject.
After my experience with the van I could be swayed into a car for business use, I just need to be convinced it'll get me home everyday.
Also everyone keeps mentioning national grid, they'll cope fine. Your local DNO will struggle.
The Mad Monk said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Stirred up the hornets nest again with my couple of comments the other evening lol.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others
We are also finding 'never adopters' who have lost sight of the fact that in 10, 20 years the technology will change out of all recognition.What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others
We will probably have a situation where, in the middle of the night, your electric car will drive itself round the corner to a local charging area, charge itself up, and drive itself back.
His argument is that EVs are flawed and cannot be the long-term solution because they are presently outnumbered by ICE.
Some people can see the writing on the wall, some can't.
The Mad Monk said:
We will probably have a situation where, in the middle of the night, your electric car will drive itself round the corner to a local charging area, charge itself up, and drive itself back.
I think probably not. If each car takes X hours to recharge and enough cars drive themselves to this facility during the night, how big does the facility have to be? Where would such facility be built near you (and aren't there already plans to build houses there - or perhaps wind / solar farms)? Those who live furthest from the facility would get up in the morning to find car has already used a chunk of it's available range on it's way back from the facility. Cars driving around with no-one aboard is wasteful anyway and another inconvenience, imagine you didn't plan to use the car that night so car takes itself for a charge then you find you do want/need to use it. Nobody is a 'never adopter' , people adopt in droves when a technology is more convenient and/or cheaper than tech it is supposed to replace. Until that point the early adopters pay a price in terms of inconvenience and in terms of money. No matter how much some people sugar coat EV ownership, at this point they are paying both those prices and will continue to do so (if they stick with EVs) for a long time yet.
On a personal level it tickles me to read people's attempts at mockery. I'm from Yorkshire so some here assume I must be daft and must speak with a thick accent (though nobody I know pronounces Up as Oop). They'd reckon I don't know the difference between a cell and a battery? As if that wasn't taught at primary school.. but anyway I used to make my own lead/acid batteries as a kid. We had a summer house in the garden, I set it up with it's own wind generator (which I also made) which charged my battery which ran the lights. I also made a couple of EV's.. soap box setups, they even had an element of regen braking. Hydrogen (burning and/or fuel cells) is indeed an alternative to EVs. Batteries are poor, it's likely no battery will ever be made that is as energy dense as fossil or hydrogen fuel not in terms of volume and not in terms of mass. There have been no major leaps in battery tech for a long time and there are none on the agenda, as said EVs have recently got a bit of a boost from improvements in battery physical design rather than chemistry. Various battery chemistry is around, where a certain type excel in one respect it might be poor in another respect, pros and cons to each type.Would EVers prefer a battery that has twice the range but loses 5% charge/range per day due to 'vampire losses' or would they rather stick with current battery? If twice range meant 400 miles range instead of 200 a 5% loss per pay would mean the car would use as much electricity each day doing nothing as another EV driven 20 miles per day - If future EVs are to have decent range they'd better not have vampire losses or (again) there would be no point in EVs, not until a cheap and clean way of making enough electricity is available and wind farms/solar won't be nearly enough. As if I didn't know diesel subs have lots of batteries to run on electricity under water lol. No doubt the Navy does have an aversion to fitting lithium batteries in subs that go under water (classic school experiment dropping bits of lithium into water to see what happens...) - But this doesn't mean it is totally safe to have nuclear reactors underwater in subs either. If you could invent a battery that could hold enough charge to push a sub around the world a few times and then be 'inductance charged' from ships or charged quickly from wind farms that pop out of the water you'd probably have yourself a sale. The real story is that lithium batteries even on land (in EVs) are likely to be charged from nuclear reactors / burning of fossil fuels.
The only real bit of EV news since this thread started is that charging points that used to be free to use now charge £money for Evers to use.
For me the most telling thread on the subject of EVs was the '500 miles in an electric vehicle thread' (link if I can find it). where some guy spent £80k on a Tesla then boasted that with careful route planning and hotel planning (which didn't inconvenience him at all obviously) he was able to complete a 500 mile journey over a few days in his car. I seem to have been able to do that in any car I've ever owned regardless of how much I paid for it, even without careful route / hotel planning.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 25th September 11:37
Better tell the Japanese to cancel their order then - they're getting several Lithium battery equipped submarines. https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/japan-commissions-...
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Stirred up the hornets nest again with my couple of comments the other evening lol.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
Interesting you touched on inconveniencing there. Came to work in my LPG car the other day as my wife needed had our leaf.What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
Had to make a 200 mile round trip with no notice. Needed to get LPG on the way out because I was low but the local filling station to work is a repair place so that doesn't open until 9ish (I don't have one near home as that closed down a few years ago). Stopped off at a motorway service one and spent 5 minutes fiddling with it, went in the shop, LPG pumps are all down.
So now I'm on petrol as I've run out of LPG and trying to find another place to fill up, end up going to another service station but its off of the motorway (east midlands one) so busy coming down that road then filled it up so I've already lost getting on for 30 minutes to fill the thing.
Get to where I'm going, get what needs doing done but need to stop for lunch on the way back so stop at the services and eat my lunch for 30 minutes whilst watching people charge their cars, on the way back I stop to get LPG again as its over 10p cheaper there than where I can get it near work so loose another 20 minutes in detour, filling and traffic getting back onto the motorway.
Then get back home cheesed off as for all that faffing I could've taken the leaf at a fraction of the cost and a lot less rushing about.
The rest of the time the leaf is by far the more convenient car as I never have to go anywhere to fill it up on my day to day driving, just spend 3 seconds plugging it in when I get home and when I wake up in the morning its full up again ready to go.
To fill my LPG car up at the station near work (only 2.5 miles away) I'm looking at loosing at least half an hour each time.
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Vampire losses... Many definitions including when a battery self discharges.
This is a Tesla thing that doesn't seem to be an issue on any other EV as far as I'm aware, in Teslas auxiliary systems seem to sap battery power when parked up. Leafs can be left for months with minimal discharge (we're talking a few percent and maybe a few pence?!)SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
We're way past early adopter stage now. Early adopters were tesla roadster, early Japanese built leafs, Renault Fluence.My dad's mate was an early video recorder adopter too - VHS
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
bodhi said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
I didn't take delight JUST because he insulted my cheap as chips to run milk float, i take delight because Simon seems to take delight in recycling just about every urban myth going in order to bad mouth an emerging technology.
SimonYorkshire said:
There have been no major leaps in battery tech for a long time and there are none on the agenda
https://internetofbusiness.com/long-range-fast-cha...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2017/11...
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/521651/graphene...
Etc.
Seriously dude, you don't have a clue.
andrewrob said:
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Stirred up the hornets nest again with my couple of comments the other evening lol.
What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
Interesting you touched on inconveniencing there. Came to work in my LPG car the other day as my wife needed had our leaf.What we're finding here is 'early adopters' who badly want to prove to themselves and others that they're not really inconveniencing themselves unnecessarily (and expensively and boringly), but really they're the enlightened ones and everyone else will soon realise they've been too slow to take up EVs.
Had to make a 200 mile round trip with no notice. Needed to get LPG on the way out because I was low but the local filling station to work is a repair place so that doesn't open until 9ish (I don't have one near home as that closed down a few years ago). Stopped off at a motorway service one and spent 5 minutes fiddling with it, went in the shop, LPG pumps are all down.
So now I'm on petrol as I've run out of LPG and trying to find another place to fill up, end up going to another service station but its off of the motorway (east midlands one) so busy coming down that road then filled it up so I've already lost getting on for 30 minutes to fill the thing.
Get to where I'm going, get what needs doing done but need to stop for lunch on the way back so stop at the services and eat my lunch for 30 minutes whilst watching people charge their cars, on the way back I stop to get LPG again as its over 10p cheaper there than where I can get it near work so loose another 20 minutes in detour, filling and traffic getting back onto the motorway.
Then get back home cheesed off as for all that faffing I could've taken the leaf at a fraction of the cost and a lot less rushing about.
The rest of the time the leaf is by far the more convenient car as I never have to go anywhere to fill it up on my day to day driving, just spend 3 seconds plugging it in when I get home and when I wake up in the morning its full up again ready to go.
To fill my LPG car up at the station near work (only 2.5 miles away) I'm looking at loosing at least half an hour each time.
andrewrob said:
SimonYorkshire said:
Vampire losses... Many definitions including when a battery self discharges.
This is a Tesla thing that doesn't seem to be an issue on any other EV as far as I'm aware, in Teslas auxiliary systems seem to sap battery power when parked up. Leafs can be left for months with minimal discharge (we're talking a few percent and maybe a few pence?!)SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
We're way past early adopter stage now. Early adopters were tesla roadster, early Japanese built leafs, Renault Fluence.My dad's mate was an early video recorder adopter too - VHS
RJG46 said:
Our Camper has an underslung LPG tank. Never struggle to find LPG.
You could always look on any number of LPG finder websites that cover the UK.
I did that's how I knew where the service station one was. It wasn't difficult to find it was just a faff as it meant a detour and queuing after stopping at one that should've been working but wasn't. You could always look on any number of LPG finder websites that cover the UK.
PixelpeepS3 said:
bodhi said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
I didn't take delight JUST because he insulted my cheap as chips to run milk float, i take delight because Simon seems to take delight in recycling just about every urban myth going in order to bad mouth an emerging technology.
I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
Following the success of Audi's Quattro a hell of a lot of other makers came out with 4x4 Saloons in the years after. How long did that vision of the future last?
Where are you getting this s
t about ICE cars being banned from City Centres?LPG - Our Camper has an underslung LPG tank, never struggle to find the stuff. If you do, you can always check any number of LPG finder web sites that cover the UK.
Threads like this prove what a bunch of knobs the EV guys are here.
PixelpeepS3 said:
bodhi said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
I didn't take delight JUST because he insulted my cheap as chips to run milk float, i take delight because Simon seems to take delight in recycling just about every urban myth going in order to bad mouth an emerging technology.
But as someone with many years of experience in arguing on the internet, I can tell you that when you start taking delight in someone's personal misfortune, you have far from won the argument. Just saying.
However for me to refer to your EV as a milk float was inaccurate. Mostly as our milkman has switched to a Transit as the Electric Float didn't have the range to do his whole round. So maybe golf buggy is closer (although they struggle to get the whole way round as well).
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff